U.S. Immigration

[Ten oz]

14 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Again, I think white Americans take the emotional stance about immigrants, and in their minds they paint a picture of a family moving here, the husband goes to work at a factory while the wife sets up the house and kids, the husband works his way up by the sweat of his brow until he's the foreman, a man of respect and (limited) prestige. Gold watch, thanks much, job well done. Or you start your own business, work like a dog at it, ignore your family except to buy expensive things, and then sell the business and retire to some place warmer. Then these white Americans see brown people come over and do things differently. The immigrant family is probably extended, might live in a neighborhood far under their budget, but pools their wealth and, let's say, buys a convenience store, then two, then five. They work in shifts around the clock but always spend a lot of time together. They all become successful, they do exactly what any country wants its immigrants to do, yet they're resented because they come from elsewhere and don't do things the same as white Americans. 

Another problem for our immigrants is the general working class distrust of higher education. Often immigrants (even from poorer countries) have more extensive educations and special skill sets than the average working class American, creating more resentment. Working class Americans are feeling left out right now, that everyone else gets the breaks but them, even the immigrants. They feel they've done things right, but they don't qualify for assistance, and resent anyone who does get aid (because they must have done things WRONG). I can imagine it would be galling to compete for a job you're qualified for, against someone who is overqualified (by a LOT) but needs the job just as badly. I think blue-collar workers have been manipulated to mistrust heavily educated people. It keeps them from demanding better access to higher education. It keeps them from going to the doctor regularly. It keeps them ignorant and fearful, ready to trust the first person who seems to speak their language.

 

All of that is true but I think racism plays a bigger role. If a immigrant from Norway came over and did everything the same as an immigrant from Haiti this administration and most Republicans in general would applaud the Norwegians and have problem with the Haitian. It doesn't really matter how an immigrant behaves, how many jobs they create, how hard they work, how many govt subsides they use, or etc. Only thing that seems to matter is their ethnicity. Trump made that point crystal clear with his shithole comment. In that discussion Democrats where trying to support Haitians who have already be legally in this country for 7 yrs. They are all vetted, documented,and have built lives here in the U.S. yet Trump wants to through ALL of them out regardless where they work, how much they pay in taxes, etc while at the same times Trump welcomes an imaginary group of new immigrants from Norway. Obviously nothing about what an immigrant does as an individual matters to Trump. Where they come from is what matters, all that matters.

[CharonY]

If one follows the falsehoods by Trump and his administration, it is difficult to overlook that the discussion is strongly framed in terms of racism, equating good immigration with white immigration. 

[Raider5678]

4 hours ago, EdEarl said:

A criminal is likely to create trouble whether they come in legally or illegally. However, a Dr. who comes into the US without papers cannot practice medicine; thus, the US cannot benefit from that skilled person. I think the laws are biased towards causing more trouble than good.

That may be true for the criminal, but clearly, you have to note someone who came here illegally is more likely to commit crimes.

If they're here illegally they're blackmailed, scammed, and numerous other terrible things simply because they can't really go to the authorities for help because they're here illegally.

If anything we should make the immigration process easier, increase the number of immigrants allowed a year, but keep the idea that illegal immigration is illegal.

3 hours ago, swansont said:

White America is. Non-white? Not as much.

If you're an American Citizen you're an American. That's the position virtually everyone I know holds, and they're virtually all Republicans.

Just because they're against illegal immigration does not make them racist. 

[CharonY]

7 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

That may be true for the criminal, but clearly, you have to note someone who came here illegally is more likely to commit crimes.

If they're here illegally they're blackmailed, scammed, and numerous other terrible things simply because they can't really go to the authorities for help because they're here illegally.

If anything we should make the immigration process easier, increase the number of immigrants allowed a year, but keep the idea that illegal immigration is illegal.

It is rather clear that you are just assuming things based on some rough extrapolations. Stating them as fact does the discussion no good. In fact most studies indicate that undocumented migrants are less likely to commit crimes than the average population. E.g. take a look here. Reasons do include the added fear of deportation. 

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by CharonY

[EdEarl]

1 minute ago, Raider5678 said:

That may be true for the criminal, but clearly, you have to note someone who came here illegally is more likely to commit crimes.

If they're here illegally they're blackmailed, scammed, and numerous other terrible things simply because they can't really go to the authorities for help because they're here illegally.

If anything we should make the immigration process easier, increase the number of immigrants allowed a year, but keep the idea that illegal immigration is illegal.

Could the law be changed so people could not be blackmailed for entering the US without permission?

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

It is rather clear that you are just assuming things based on some rough extrapolations. Stating them as fact does the discussion no good. In fact most studies indicate that undocumented migrants are less likely to commit crimes than the average population one can be read here. Reasons do include the added fear of deportation. 

 

2

Looking at that it seems like it's referencing to legal immigrants, could you point to which chapter and/or study dealing with illegal immigrants crime rates?

 

 

7 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

Could the law be changed so people could not be blackmailed for entering the US without permission?

It could. But it'd only work if you agreed to not deport someone if they're blackmailed. At which point in my mind, it becomes counter-intuitive. 

I'd much rather see illegal immigration discouraged. 

 

I'm proposing to make it easier to get into the country while allowing more people in a year.

Making there even less of a reason to immigrate illegally. 

[CharonY]

P. 329 and following it references relevant studies.

[Ten oz]

17 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

That may be true for the criminal, but clearly, you have to note someone who came here illegally is more likely to commit crimes.

Irrelevant in context to the groups Trump and Republicans are targeting and the Democrats are seeking to protect. The Salvadorians and Haitians Trump wants deported came here legally. As for DACA it only applies to those who were to young to consent one way or another and had to register with immigration services for the protection; they are not undocumented nor did they knowing commit a crime. 

[EdEarl]

4 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Looking at that it seems like it's referencing to legal immigrants, could you point to which chapter and/or study dealing with illegal immigrants crime rates?

 

 

It could. But it'd only work if you agreed to not deport someone if they're blackmailed. At which point in my mind, it becomes counter-intuitive. 

I'd much rather see illegal immigration discouraged. 

 

I'm proposing to make it easier to get into the country while allowing more people in a year.

Making there even less of a reason to immigrate illegally. 

I believe some illegal immigrants are ignorant of our laws, and hopeful they will be treated better than where they came from. I think treating them as criminals, rather than desperate people who need help is inhumane. I'm not suggesting they should be welcomed as if they came legally, merely asking for a bit of gentle justice. If a know criminal is caught, by all means put them in jail.

[Raider5678]

10 minutes ago, CharonY said:

P. 329 and following it references relevant studies.

Thank you. 

This holds for the entire United States, not just California right?

3 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

I believe some illegal immigrants are ignorant of our laws, and hopeful they will be treated better than where they came from. I think treating them as criminals, rather than desperate people who need help is inhumane. I'm not suggesting they should be welcomed as if they came legally, merely asking for a bit of gentle justice. If a know criminal is caught, by all means put them in jail.

I mostly agree, but what do you mean by gentle justice?

My opinion also lies in the fact there are resources designated to helping immigrants. If we divert a portion of those resources to helping illegal immigrants other then those who didn't have a choice but to come here, that's unfair to legal immigrants.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Raider5678

[CharonY]

3 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

This holds for the entire United States, not just California right?

There are other studies and it pretty much holds true in almost all cohorts (almost because I have not exhaustively reviewed the literature, so there may be some that I missed as this is not my area of study). Still, for the ongoing discussion it is highly irrelevant (except as a distraction to create fear of immigrants as a whole). 

Edited January 19, 2018 by CharonY

[EdEarl]

27 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Thank you. 

This holds for the entire United States, not just California right?

I mostly agree, but what do you mean by gentle justice?

My opinion also lies in the fact there are resources designated to helping immigrants. If we divert a portion of those resources to helping illegal immigrants other then those who didn't have a choice but to come here, that's unfair to legal immigrants.

The problem is not money. Hell, the US has a military that is about 10 times as large as any other in the world. It is a cash cow for the military industrial complex, and pleases paranoids. We throw away enough good food to feed every hungry person in the US. People drive half a block to get a cup of coffee. We waste enough to provide for a another country.

[CharonY]

55 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

My opinion also lies in the fact there are resources designated to helping immigrants. If we divert a portion of those resources to helping illegal immigrants other then those who didn't have a choice but to come here, that's unfair to legal immigrants.

What do you think is the net cost of undocumented immigration?

[Sensei]

43 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

Hell, the US has a military that is about 10 times as large as any other in the world. It is a cash cow for the military industrial complex, and pleases paranoids.

The money is problem. Because large army, and large mass destruction business (aka "defense industry"), demands new orders every year (usually bigger and more lucrative than previous year!) so they can continue working (and growing year-by-year showing higher income)..

Unused airplanes are landing on desert graveyards..

 

You paid for it, from your own pocket, and nobody went to jail for stealing that money from you.. LOL!

At the same time, people were thrown out from their homes, and made homeless, because they could not pay bill...

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by Sensei

[Raider5678]

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

What do you think is the net cost of undocumented immigration?

Is DACA not funded?

[iNow]

1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

Is DACA not funded?

If anything, letting it lapse increases costs on enforcement and deportation activities 

 

EDIT: DACA is not a program or benefit offering or service. It’s an executive order instructing the DOJ to defer action... to specifically do nothing and not act... to ignore for a little while those who were brought here as children illegally by their parents... those who’ve grown up here for years/decades and who see themselves as Americans... who everywhere except on one piece of paper ARE Americans... who pay taxes... serve their communities... attend church and work hard... who fight for our freedoms in the military... DACA just means let’s not send the cops and the feds to their houses to scoop them up and rip them away from their children, their jobs, their lives. There are better ways to allocate our resources and to direct our law enforcement activities. Let’s defer action on these childhood arrivals... DACA. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by iNow

[rangerx]

14 minutes ago, iNow said:

If anything, letting it lapse increases costs on enforcement and deportation activities 

No less distressing to hard working, law abiding individuals by threatening to deport them to a country they have no knowledge of nor support for.

The law is the law, but underage or dependent individuals are not automatically culpable for the actions of their parents.

Oppressing the oppressed to feed into a political agenda gives the appearance America is no better than the countries they escaped.

[swansont]

14 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

If you're an American Citizen you're an American. That's the position virtually everyone I know holds, and they're virtually all Republicans.

There are many who do not consider non-whites to be Americans.  It's quite obvious. They say things like "Go back to where you came from!" to non-whites

14 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

Just because they're against illegal immigration does not make them racist. 

I didn't say anything about them being racist. My point was that not all non-whites are descended from immigrants.

But on your point, the current landscape is also about legal immigration, and it's obvious that the president doesn't want brown people (i.e. the ones from sh*thole countries) being let into the US. He'd rather have Norwegians. That is racist.

[CharonY]

Connected to that it is clear that the president equates ethnicity to the quality of certain people (e.g. with regard to rapists, drug dealers, thugs etc.). And as a hint, it also scales with melanin.

[StringJunky]

7 hours ago, swansont said:

I didn't say anything about them being racist. My point was that not all non-whites are descended from immigrants.

But all whites are.

[Kevin Mulisa Isaya]

Even Trump, migrated from elsewhere, even if not trump, but his wife comes from Russia,

[Sensei]

17 minutes ago, Kevin Mulisa Isaya said:

Even Trump, migrated from elsewhere, even if not trump, but his wife comes from Russia,

Actually from Slovenia, not Russia..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevnica

 

[CharonY]

In that regard I found a recent paper quite interesting Huo et al. (2017, PNAS):

 

Quote

Subnational immigrant policies (i.e., those instituted at the state level in the United States) are not only key to successful integration, they send a message about who belongs. Our evidence suggests that welcoming state-level immigrant policies lead to greater belonging among foreign-born Latinos, US-born Latinos, and even US-born whites. Only self-identified politically conservative whites showed depressed feelings of belonging when state policies support immigrants. Patterns remained constant across states that vary in their historic reception of immigrants (Arizona and New Mexico). These findings suggest that debates about the polarizing effects of immigration policies by racial group are misplaced. With a majority of whites nationally identifying as either liberal or moderate, welcoming immigration policies have direct and spillover effects that can further national unity.

 

[Raider5678]

15 hours ago, swansont said:

But on your point, the current landscape is also about legal immigration, and it's obvious that the president doesn't want brown people (i.e. the ones from sh*thole countries) being let into the US. He'd rather have Norwegians. That is racist.

 

And I've made my opinion on this clear already.

[iNow]

5 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

And I've made my opinion on this clear already.

Just because these people you know and love aren’t actively lynching people doesn’t mean what they’re saying, doing, and supporting isn’t racist. 

We can, should, and must be better.