waitforufo Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 20 minutes ago, Ten oz said: What price are we (U.S. Citizens) paying by letting people raised and educated in the U.S. stay in the U.S.? 15 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Because we were all children once and not one of us chose where we were born or who our parents are. You two have an interesting sense of justice. Crimes where committed. Those crimes include child abuse by the parents of DACA children when they included them in their crimes. Somehow you don't have a problem with that. Next, are these children not citizens of other countries? Are the people from those countries less empathetic to the plight of their children citizens than other human beings would be? Those countries have no obligation at all? Why not a discussion on the shared human responsibility of all involved? -3
dimreepr Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, waitforufo said: You two have an interesting sense of justice. Crimes where committed. Not by the children... 10 minutes ago, waitforufo said: Those crimes include child abuse by the parents of DACA children when they included them in their crimes. Somehow you don't have a problem with that. Strawman... 11 minutes ago, waitforufo said: Next, are these children not citizens of other countries? No, they are citizens of their culture, the same as you.
Ten oz Posted January 23, 2018 Author Posted January 23, 2018 18 minutes ago, waitforufo said: You two have an interesting sense of justice. Crimes where committed. Those crimes include child abuse by the parents of DACA children when they included them in their crimes. Somehow you don't have a problem with that. Next, are these children not citizens of other countries? Are the people from those countries less empathetic to the plight of their children citizens than other human beings would be? Those countries have no obligation at all? Why not a discussion on the shared human responsibility of all involved? Asking me a series of different questions doesn't answer the question I asked you. What price is paid by U.S. Citizens by enabling those protected by DACA to stay? Your questions: focusing on "crimes committed" is leapfrogging backyards. DACA is already policy put in place by a POTUS and numerous local govt have laws on the books offering a variety of protections. The debate is whether or not we should end a program, DACA. What "obligation" are you talking about? What are you purposing? You seem to be implying the individuals protected by DACA cost or burden U.S. citizens somehow but you aren't elaborating as to how.
waitforufo Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 34 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Asking me a series of different questions doesn't answer the question I asked you. What price is paid by U.S. Citizens by enabling those protected by DACA to stay? Your questions: focusing on "crimes committed" is leapfrogging backyards. DACA is already policy put in place by a POTUS and numerous local govt have laws on the books offering a variety of protections. The debate is whether or not we should end a program, DACA. What "obligation" are you talking about? What are you purposing? You seem to be implying the individuals protected by DACA cost or burden U.S. citizens somehow but you aren't elaborating as to how. The price we are paying is that we are spending resources on foreigners that could be spent on improving the lives of impoverished US citizens, improving education for our children, etc. Also illegal immigrants put lowering price pressure on wages further grinding people into poverty. What obligation am I talking about? How about basic human altruism. These children are citizens of other countries that are in a bind because of the criminal actions of their parents. If roles were reversed and those children were US citizens in a bind, I would want my government to help. Not just financial help, but border enforcement help. Quite frankly I would be embarrassed that my country was exporting is social problems to other countries.
Ten oz Posted January 23, 2018 Author Posted January 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, waitforufo said: The price we are paying is that we are spending resources on foreigners that could be spent on improving the lives of impoverished US citizens What resources?
CharonY Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 Since we talk about DACA, 91% of DACA recipients are in job. Rescinding DACA according to some calculations would cost ~6 billion in employee turnover costs, and up to 60 billion in federal government costs. Over the next ten years removing the ~700k members of society will cost ~280-460 billion in GDP over the next ten years. So especially with regard to DACA, which is essentially a vetting system, the economics of rescinding it makes no sense.
swansont Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, waitforufo said: You two have an interesting sense of justice. Crimes where committed. What crimes? You, as per usual, have not included anything to support your assertions. 46 minutes ago, waitforufo said: The price we are paying is that we are spending resources on foreigners that could be spent on improving the lives of impoverished US citizens, improving education for our children, etc. Is there a price paid? These parents pay taxes. What evidence do you have that there is any price being paid by the citizens? 46 minutes ago, waitforufo said: Also illegal immigrants put lowering price pressure on wages further grinding people into poverty. Evidence?
CharonY Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 This, however, is common issue with certain opponents of all immigration (as seen above, either accidentally or by choice the distinction is now US citizens vs foreigners, regardless of legal status). They see economics as a zero-sum game where money is either directed to citizens or to immigrants. What is neglected is the overall net change on the economy which could, in fact increase income that then could be directed to help the impoverished. It is also telling if the same persons also happen to oppose social programs to help the impoverished or redistribution of income when the discussion is not about immigrants. 1
rangerx Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, waitforufo said: Quite frankly I would be embarrassed that my country was exporting is social problems to other countries. Quashing DACA and deporting dreamers is just exactly that. It's typical how conservatives eschew something by doing it themselves. I can hardly wait until Mexico starts sending your expats back. It's astounding how many American sleazeballs are hiding in plain sight down there. I'm sure your private prison industry will enjoy that... at your expense.
Ten oz Posted January 23, 2018 Author Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, swansont said: Is there a price paid? These parents pay taxes. What evidence do you have that there is any price being paid by the citizens? Waitforufo is implying it is costing U.S. citizens something when it isn't. Quite the opposite actually: "Research from both the right-leaning Cato Institute and left-leaning Center for American Progress suggests Trump’s economic and immigration goals may be diametrically opposed. Their research indicates that ending DACA — and deporting the workers who will no longer enjoy legal status — could reduce the size of the U.S. economy by anywhere from $280 billion to $430 billion over the next decade." http://time.com/money/4928394/daca-economic-cost-trump/ Having immigrants in the U.S. helps the U.S. economy. It does cost citizens anything. Trump himself made it crystal clear what this about with his shithole comment. It Crux of his complaint wasn't that we couldn't afford to have immigrants or that having them negatively impacted U.S. Citizens but rather the immigrants weren't from countries he preferred like Norway.
iNow Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 5 hours ago, waitforufo said: Why should US citizens pay the price of the crimes committed by the parents of DACA children? Perhaps a better question is why should US citizens stop benefiting from these folks who come here and contribute so much. http://fortune.com/2017/09/05/daca-donald-trump-economic-impact/ Quote The economy could lose out on about $280 billion if the Trump Administration deports the nearly one million undocumented who qualified for the program, according to a January 2017 study from the CATO Institute. (...) According to the CATO institute, deporting these recipients could cost the government at least $60 billion. Overall, rescinding the program would reduce economic growth by $280 billion. Ike Brannon, a co-author of the study, wrote in a blog post on August 31 that these numbers are conservative, and the numbers could potentially be higher. “Many Americans believe that the presence of unauthorized immigrants is harmful to the economy and would like to see steps taken to reduce their presence. However, a repeal or roll-back of DACA would harm the economy and cost the U.S. government a significant amount of lost tax revenue,” the study reads. Part of Sessions’ argument in favor of rescinding the program was economic; he said it had adversely impacted native born Americans “It also denied jobs to hundreds of thousands of Americans by allowing those same jobs to go to illegal aliens,” he said. Another report, published by progressive advocacy group Center for American Progress and FWD.us, found that repealing the program could cost the U.S. $460.3 billion in economic output over the next decade, and that contributions to entitlement programs like Medicare and Social Security could drop by $24.6 billion.
swansont Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 3 hours ago, waitforufo said: Quite frankly I would be embarrassed that my country was exporting is social problems to other countries. Please establish that this is, in fact, the case. That these people are a "social problem"
rangerx Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Ten oz said: Quite the opposite actually. Not to mention the impending humanitarian crisis. Deporting the oppressed back to their oppressors. The American dream is a fucking joke.
Phi for All Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 4 hours ago, waitforufo said: Also illegal immigrants put lowering price pressure on wages further grinding people into poverty. This is NOT true. From my link on the first page: Quote If these patterns are driving the differences across states, then in states where immigration has been heavy, U.S.-born workers with less education should have shifted toward more communication-intensive jobs. Figure 3 shows exactly this. The share of immigrants among the less educated is strongly correlated with the extent of U.S.-born worker specialization in communication tasks. Each point in the graph represents a U.S. state in 2005. In states with a heavy concentration of less-educated immigrants, U.S.-born workers have migrated toward more communication-intensive occupations. Those jobs pay higher wages than manual jobs, so such a mechanism has stimulated the productivity of workers born in the United States and generated new employment opportunities. Yours is an emotional stance with no basis in truth. It sounds like it could be that way, and those in power who oppose immigrants use this against you to get your support. Reality shows that immigration boosts wages in the working sector, and especially for existing workers who better understand the language and processes. Science helps me remove that emotional knee-jerk reaction, and think more critically about the world around me. 1
StringJunky Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Phi for All said: This is NOT true. From my link on the first page: Yours is an emotional stance with no basis in truth. It sounds like it could be that way, and those in power who oppose immigrants use this against you to get your support. Reality shows that immigration boosts wages in the working sector, and especially for existing workers who better understand the language and processes. Science helps me remove that emotional knee-jerk reaction, and think more critically about the world around me. And he is on a science site, so he can't expect any less.
Sensei Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 On 23.01.2018 at 3:06 PM, waitforufo said: Crimes where committed. Those crimes include child abuse by the parents of DACA children when they included them in their crimes. Somehow you don't have a problem with that. Having to flee from country where is regular war, civil war or martial law (e.g. Poland in 1981), to rescue life, rescue against being arrested, rescue against being tortured, you're calling "crime of parents".. You must have unbelievable a lot of nerve (and stupidity), to say something like that.. 1
waitforufo Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 On 1/23/2018 at 8:26 AM, swansont said: What crimes? You, as per usual, have not included anything to support your assertions. Is there a price paid? These parents pay taxes. What evidence do you have that there is any price being paid by the citizens? Evidence? Perhaps you haven't noticed but the US has immigration laws. It appears that you don't like these laws and don't believe that these laws should be enforced. It seems that you believe that any person who steps foot in the US should automatically be a citizen with all rights afforded a US citizen included voting. I'm sure you feel that if a person bought a candy bar at convenience store he paid taxes so all that person need is to keep the receipt so now that person is a citizen Perhaps you should read the 14th amendment. Why bother however? You will just ignore the parts you don't like. Maybe you should read Article VI of the constitution. Yeah, I know you feel like you should be able to pick and choose only the things you like from that document as well. The predicament the Dreamers are in are the direct result of the criminal actions of their parents. Explain to me how that is not true. That is child abuse. It's no different than taking you child with you to rob a bank. Picking and choosing which law to enforce will lead to nothing but trouble. How would you like it If I was the one doing the picking and choosing? I on the other hand am a law abiding citizen who follows all the laws. Even the ones I don't like. Why not you? On 1/23/2018 at 8:58 AM, CharonY said: This, however, is common issue with certain opponents of all immigration (as seen above, either accidentally or by choice the distinction is now US citizens vs foreigners, regardless of legal status). They see economics as a zero-sum game where money is either directed to citizens or to immigrants. What is neglected is the overall net change on the economy which could, in fact increase income that then could be directed to help the impoverished. It is also telling if the same persons also happen to oppose social programs to help the impoverished or redistribution of income when the discussion is not about immigrants. This is just BS. Again we have laws. Those laws need to be enforced. Change them if you can but until you do they should be enforced. On 1/23/2018 at 9:59 AM, rangerx said: Quashing DACA and deporting dreamers is just exactly that. It's typical how conservatives eschew something by doing it themselves. I can hardly wait until Mexico starts sending your expats back. It's astounding how many American sleazeballs are hiding in plain sight down there. I'm sure your private prison industry will enjoy that... at your expense. Sleazeballs who break the law and hide out in Mexico should be returned to the US should be returned to the US for prosecution and punishment. Their victims deserve justice. Why would any good person want anything less? On 1/23/2018 at 11:44 AM, rangerx said: Not to mention the impending humanitarian crisis. Deporting the oppressed back to their oppressors. The American dream is a fucking joke. First, the Dreamers are not Americans. Second the US is not the welfare provider for the world. This humanitarian crisis was caused by States not enforcing Federal law and the parents of Dreamers who brought their children here illegally. What part of that don't you get? 10 hours ago, Sensei said: Having to flee from country where is regular war, civil war or martial law (e.g. Poland in 1981), to rescue life, rescue against being arrested, rescue against being tortured, you're calling "crime of parents".. You must have unbelievable a lot of nerve (and stupidity), to say something like that.. So following our laws is stupid? Not a life path I would recommend. So now on to recent news. Trump says he wants to admit Dreamers and provide a path for them to become citizens. Trump just was substantial immigration reform so we don't get into this situation again. In politics there is bargaining. What are you willing to give Trump to get what you want on DACA?
EdEarl Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, waitforufo said: Perhaps you haven't noticed but the US has immigration laws. It appears that you don't like these laws and don't believe that these laws should be enforced. It seems that you believe that any person who steps foot in the US should automatically be a citizen with all rights afforded a US citizen included voting. I'm sure you feel that if a person bought a candy bar at convenience store he paid taxes so all that person need is to keep the receipt so now that person is a citizen Perhaps you should read the 14th amendment. Why bother however? You will just ignore the parts you don't like. Maybe you should read Article VI of the constitution. Yeah, I know you feel like you should be able to pick and choose only the things you like from that document as well. The predicament the Dreamers are in are the direct result of the criminal actions of their parents. Explain to me how that is not true. That is child abuse. It's no different than taking you child with you to rob a bank. Picking and choosing which law to enforce will lead to nothing but trouble. How would you like it If I was the one doing the picking and choosing? I on the other hand am a law abiding citizen who follows all the laws. Even the ones I don't like. Why not you? This is just BS. Again we have laws. Those laws need to be enforced. Change them if you can but until you do they should be enforced. Sleazeballs who break the law and hide out in Mexico should be returned to the US should be returned to the US for prosecution and punishment. Their victims deserve justice. Why would any good person want anything less? First, the Dreamers are not Americans. Second the US is not the welfare provider for the world. This humanitarian crisis was caused by States not enforcing Federal law and the parents of Dreamers who brought their children here illegally. What part of that don't you get? So following our laws is stupid? Not a life path I would recommend. So now on to recent news. Trump says he wants to admit Dreamers and provide a path for them to become citizens. Trump just was substantial immigration reform so we don't get into this situation again. In politics there is bargaining. What are you willing to give Trump to get what you want on DACA? Our country exists because the people in 1776 were being abused by the law of the crown. Quote We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Laws are not necessarily ethical, and people who try to abuse people using the law should be stopped.
dimreepr Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 17 minutes ago, EdEarl said: Funny how that turned out... (cough, cough)... Irony meters off, please gentlemen...
EdEarl Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 1 minute ago, dimreepr said: Funny how that turned out... (cough, cough)... True, today peaceful protests as done by Mahatma Gandhi, the Reverend King, and others seem to be pretty effective. Although, they require the same dedication by protesters, who may be killed.
swansont Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, waitforufo said: Perhaps you haven't noticed but the US has immigration laws. I noticed. I guess you haven't read the whole thread. I talked about them before. Quote It appears that you don't like these laws and don't believe that these laws should be enforced. It seems that you believe that any person who steps foot in the US should automatically be a citizen with all rights afforded a US citizen included voting. No, you're just making that up. A nice distraction attempt from the fact that you aren't answering my question, or providing the evidence I asked for. You probably break some laws every day. Quote I'm sure you feel that if a person bought a candy bar at convenience store he paid taxes so all that person need is to keep the receipt so now that person is a citizen Another man of straw. Quote Perhaps you should read the 14th amendment. Why bother however? You will just ignore the parts you don't like. Pot. Kettle. Black. Quote Maybe you should read Article VI of the constitution. Yeah, I know you feel like you should be able to pick and choose only the things you like from that document as well. The predicament the Dreamers are in are the direct result of the criminal actions of their parents. Explain to me how that is not true. That is child abuse. It's no different than taking you child with you to rob a bank. If your parent exceeded the speed limit in a car with you (as a child) in it, (or fails to come to a complete stop at a stop sign etc.) is that child abuse? Quote Picking and choosing which law to enforce will lead to nothing but trouble. How would you like it If I was the one doing the picking and choosing? Law enforcement does this all the time. I don't see that we commit equal resources toward jaywalking and murder investigations, for example. Prioritization in the wake of limited resources. Quote I on the other hand am a law abiding citizen who follows all the laws. Even the ones I don't like. Why not you? I am convinced that you have broken at least one law in your life. It's almost impossible not to have done so. The average person commits about three felonies a day. So no, you do not "follow all the laws" http://thecrux.com/the-more-corrupt-the-state-the-more-numerous-the-laws/ Your position, it seems, demands that you implore the police to investigate you for these crimes. Maybe you should just turn yourself in?
dimreepr Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 51 minutes ago, waitforufo said: Trump says he wants to admit Dreamers and provide a path for them to become citizens. Trump just was substantial immigration reform so we don't get into this situation again. In politics there is bargaining. What are you willing to give Trump to get what you want on DACA? Ohhh, wowww, you honestly think Trump didn't back down? You poor sap, Trump tried to bluff with 2 3 off suit when the flop was j q k of spades, that's fine but you ain't going to win much against A 10 of spades...
Phi for All Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 56 minutes ago, EdEarl said: Our country exists because the people in 1776 were being abused by the law of the crown. And just like today, the crown's laws were being heavily influenced by out-of-control corporations like the East India Company, who had, over the years, negotiated virtually unlimited power. This was the main reason our own founding fathers heavily limited what corporations were allowed to do. Over the years, we've allowed MANY East India Companies to flourish, all bent on private gain, using public resources they don't want to pay for, including immigration programs, it seems.
EdEarl Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 22 minutes ago, Phi for All said: And just like today, the crown's laws were being heavily influenced by out-of-control corporations like the East India Company, who had, over the years, negotiated virtually unlimited power. This was the main reason our own founding fathers heavily limited what corporations were allowed to do. Over the years, we've allowed MANY East India Companies to flourish, all bent on private gain, using public resources they don't want to pay for, including immigration programs, it seems. The first death in the US War against Inhumanity has already occurred. I'm not sure who should be first, but Heather D. Heyer, 32, of Charlottesville, who was killed by a neo-Nazi demonstrator in Charlottesville by driving a car into a crowd of anti-Nazi demonstrators should be listed among the first. If possible, the moderators agree, and others want, we could start a thread in which we propose candidates for our Memorial and debate whether they should be added. The list should be first post of the Memorial thread, which I suppose would have to be updated by a moderator.
Ten oz Posted January 25, 2018 Author Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, waitforufo said: Perhaps you haven't noticed but the US has immigration laws. It appears that you don't like these laws and don't believe that these laws should be enforced. A bill becomes a law by being voted on and passed through the House and Senate then sign by the President. Currently that process it what happening. Democrats and Republicans in the House and Senate with counsel from the President is working to determine what the law shall be with respects to DACA. What the law use to be years back was legally deferred by Presidential action. Whatever you currently believe the law currently is will be different once an immigration bill is sorted out. Your posts are redundant and ignore that there are legal ways to sort this matter out and those legal ways are what's currently being negotiated in Congress. Was the law is the law your position on taxes? Our tax laws are our tax laws and must be enforced period? Were you angered when Trump said finding ways to not pay taxes makes him smart? Were you angry when Congress voted to change tax laws? WTF is the difference? Come down off your high horse. Congress changes laws all the time. Your real position is that you don't want immigrants in the U.S. . That is your prerogative. Feel free to explain why we shouldn't have immigrants. Just stop acting like the law is on your side as though laws are permanent natural structures.
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