US Government Shuts Down... Again

[Raider5678]

Just now, Ten oz said:

Yes, turn out is key! How did Trump get turn out; by worry about who he might be offending or preaching to the choir?

 

Trump didn't win the popular vote.

 

[Ten oz]

3 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I'm trying to help solve the problem and remove racist people from office.

If you want to help don't vote for them AGAIN. It isn't complicated.

[John Cuthber]

18 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

You need to understand the concept that just because all insects are bugs, not all bugs are insects.

 

All supporters of racism are racists.

20 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

In reality, it is not so much them being apologists for a racist, or supporting them, that makes you think they're racist.

It's that they don't agree with you 100% on a particular subject.

You are plainly unqualified to tell me what I think and why. Please don't do it again; you will just look silly.

 

What makes me think that they are racists is that I recognise that, if they are not part of the solution, then they are part of the problem.

If you value all people equally then you don't support people whose actions oppress some people on the basis of their colour.

If you really can't find a non racists Right wing politician to support then;

(1) perhaps you should stand for election as one, and

(2) wouldn't that tell you a lot about the morality of the political Right?
 

[Raider5678]

6 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

What makes me think that they are racists is that I recognise that, if they are not part of the solution, then they are part of the problem.

If you value all people equally then you don't support people whose actions oppress some people on the basis of their colour.

If you really can't find a non racists Right wing politician to support then;

(1) perhaps you should stand for election as one, and

(2) wouldn't that tell you a lot about the morality of the political Right?
 

5

Then your assumption is far too narrow.

There were so many more issues then just racism at play during the election, you can't possibly tell me you believe they only voted for Trump because they're racists.

Have you ever thought that there are more issues at play then how offensive someone can be?

Does Abortion ring a bell?

Taxes?

Economy?

Immigration?

Healthcare?

And you're telling me the absolutely ONLY reason someone would have voted for Trump is if they were 100% Racist??

Do you realize he got African American votes? That he got Hispanic votes?

What are they? Racist against themselves?

 

Alienating everyone who doesn't agree with you is not the solution.

That is all I'm trying to say.

 

9 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

If you want to help don't vote for them AGAIN. It isn't complicated.

Seriously? That's all you can say?

 

7 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

All supporters of racism are racists.

 

And not everyone who supports a racist supports racism.

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Raider5678

[Ten oz]

5 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

You don't think robots will be capable of doing anything we can do and/or a zero cost economy doesn't make sense to you. Although, your reasons may run deeper.

What robots can do and a zero cost economy are separate things. Yes, robots will eventually be able to do any a human can do. That said humans can do anything humans can do and yet we humans are still very particular about which humans do what. As for a zero cost economy, though technically possible, I do not see it happening during our lifetime. Those who are empowered by the system we have will wage war to keep it.

 

13 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

IMO we have or nearly have a super computer big enough to run a conscious AI. If not, it won't be many years. Moreover, several groups developing conversational AI are continually improving their systems. I know one developer said that he thought he would make a conscious AI before 2030, which is not reliable info. On the other hand, there seems to be a lot of money being spent on AI. For grins, let's consider what it means.

What humans are capable of and have access to don't always drive our choices. Have AI and putting it is good use are very different things.

20 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Seriously? That's all you can say?

Yes, seriously. You voted for a bigot and are not explaining how you want to help remove bigots from office; it makes no sense. Just stop voting for them. 

[Raider5678]

4 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Yes, seriously. You voted for a bigot and are not explaining how you want to help remove bigots from office; it makes no sense. Just stop voting for them. 

 

I, a 15 year old, voted for a bigot.

 

[Ten oz]

2 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I, a 15 year old, voted for a bigot.

 

You said in a previous post that at your school Trump supporters where called racists and they you were called a racist. I took that to me you had supported Trump. I had no idea how old you are.

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, Ten oz said:

You said in a previous post that at your school Trump supporters where called racists and they you were called a racist. I took that to me you had supported Trump. I had no idea how old you are.

I'm not much of a Trump supporter.

Again however.

There were African Americans and Hispanics who voted for Trump.

Does that automatically mean they're racist bigots?

Do they get a free pass?

There are more issues in politics than just racism.

 

[Ten oz]

5 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

There were African Americans and Hispanics who voted for Trump.

89% of Blacks, 65% of Latinos, and 65% of Asians voted for Clinton. Some Jewish people helped the Nazis during WW2 but that hardly means Hilter wasn't antisemitic. The overwhelming majority of minorities, all minorities, opposed Trump. 

[EdEarl]

4 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

What robots can do and a zero cost economy are separate things. Yes, robots will eventually be able to do any a human can do. That said humans can do anything humans can do and yet we humans are still very particular about which humans do what. As for a zero cost economy, though technically possible, I do not see it happening during our lifetime. Those who are empowered by the system we have will wage war to keep it.

 

What humans are capable of and have access to don't always drive our choices. Have AI and putting it is good use are very different things.

It won't take very sophisticated robots to displace 80% of the workforce. Amazon is automating order fulfillment. Fast food will be prepared and delivered by robot. The way food comes to us is likely to undergo a major evolution, while simplifying the process. The food industry will take longer to fully automate. Cell phones will be fitted with biosensors and medical apps. Lots of people can be replaced with less than conscious AI.

[Ten oz]

2 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

Amazon is automating order fulfillment. Fast food will be prepared and delivered by robot. The way food comes to us is likely to undergo a major evolution, while simplifying the process.

Amazon and fast food didn't even exist 50yrs ago. Both were born from simplifying process. The type of jobs people do are always changing. To say Robots will replace jobs which themselves replaced other jobs only support the point I am making. 

You can have the last word. This is off topic as the thread is about the shutdown.

[EdEarl]

We'll see.

[Raider5678]

10 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

89% of Blacks, 65% of Latinos, and 65% of Asians voted for Clinton. Some Jewish people helped the Nazis during WW2 but that hardly means Hilter wasn't antisemitic. The overwhelming majority of minorities, all minorities, opposed Trump. 

I'm not saying Trump isn't racist.

I'm saying that not everyone who voted for Trump or didn't vote at all is Racist. 

But apparently, 11% of Blacks, 35% of Latinos, and 35% of Asians are Racist.

 

And you're straw manning me.

My original point is that calling someone racist just because they don't agree with you is not the best way to convince people to change their mind.

2 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Amazon and fast food didn't even exist 50yrs ago. Both were born from simplifying process. The type of jobs people do are always changing. To say Robots will replace jobs which themselves replaced other jobs only support the point I am making. 

You can have the last word. This is off topic as the thread is about the shutdown.

"Better technology makes better jobs for horses."

[Ten oz]

56 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

But apparently, 11% of Blacks, 35% of Latinos, and 35% of Asians are Racist.

You mean 8%, 27%, and 29%, the rested voted third party. Again, Some Jewish people aided Hitler. Anyone can be a racist or an apologist for racists. 

[John Cuthber]

2 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

you can't possibly tell me you believe they only voted for Trump because they're racists.

I didn't say anything of  the kind, did I.

So that's a straw man.

It's more nearly true to say that I said "they didn't vote against Trump because they were not actively anti racist"

2 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

And you're telling me the absolutely ONLY reason someone would have voted for Trump is if they were 100% Racist??

No.

You made that bit up for yourself.

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

There were so many more issues then just racism at play during the election, you can't possibly tell me you believe they only voted for Trump because they're racists.

Have you ever thought that there are more issues at play then how offensive someone can be?

 

Here is the thing, though. Race and racism was a major driver for Trump supporters. Essentially, folks have wondered what topics are have driven voters to support Trump. Abortion is fairly low on all voter's mind with less than half (45%) considering them relevant for their votes. For comparison  LGBT is about the same 40%, Economy 84%, Health Care 74%, Gun Policy 72%.

People then tried to figure out what topics or attitudes are associated with or predictive for trump voters. Several studies looked specifically into the white voter section (as relatively few minorities voted for Trump. A paper before the election (Major et al., 2016 Group Proc & Intergroup Rel) found that:

Quote

 Reminding White Americans high in ethnic identification that non-White racial groups will outnumber Whites in the United States by 2042 caused them to become more concerned about the declining status and influence of White Americans as a group (i.e., experience group status threat), and caused them to report increased support for Trump and anti-immigrant policies, as well as greater opposition to political correctness. Increased group status threat mediated the effects of the racial shift condition on candidate support, anti-immigrant policy support, and opposition to political correctness. Among Whites low in ethnic identification, in contrast, the racial shift condition had no effect on group status threat or support for anti-immigrant policies, but did cause decreased positivity toward Trump and decreased opposition to political correctness. Group status threat did not mediate these effects. Reminders of the changing racial demographics had comparable effects for Democrats and Republicans. Results illustrate the importance of changing racial demographics and White ethnic identification in voter preferences and how social psychological theory can illuminate voter preferences.

Thus among whites there is a sense of vulnerability due to presence of other ethnic groups leading to stronger support for Trump.

Using the election data a conference paper  Schaffner et al. showed that strong relationship between sexism and racism (and  much weaker for economic dissatisfaction). Various polls have shown that Trump voters disproportionately view blacks as less intelligent, lazier and more violent than whites. Another study by Luttig et al. 2017, Res & Politics) found that:

Quote

A number of recent studies suggest that individuals who exhibit high levels of racial animosity strongly support Donald Trump, while racial liberals strongly oppose him. This paper provides a new experimental analysis of the extent to which supporters and opponents of Trump respond differently to race-related stimuli. Specifically, we examine whether attitudes toward Trump moderate the political impact of racial cues in the environment. We find that white Trump supporters randomly exposed to a black (versus a white) man in the context of soliciting their support for a housing-assistance policy were more opposed to the policy, angrier about the policy, and more likely to blame beneficiaries for their situation. The opposite pattern prevailed among whites with unfavorable opinions of Trump. Our results help provide new insight into how Trump supporters and opponents differ in their responses to the salience of race in American politics.

There are numerous article in newspapers discussing these links (e.g. here, here and here) . While I agree callings someone racist does not help changing their attitude, ignoring just to save someones feelings is not right either. We are at a point where the evidence becomes overwhelming that racism is an important factor for the current presidency. And the president himself seems quite aware of that and plays to that tune. Why else would he be tip-toeing around white supremacists (other than being one himself, that is). 

[Raider5678]

13 minutes ago, CharonY said:

 

Here is the thing, though. Race and racism was a major driver for Trump supporters. Essentially, folks have wondered what topics are have driven voters to support Trump. Abortion is fairly low on all voter's mind with less than half (45%) considering them relevant for their votes. For comparison  LGBT is about the same 40%, Economy 84%, Health Care 74%, Gun Policy 72%.

 

1

What percentage voted because of racism though?

How is that even measured?

Is there a control group?

84%, 74%, and 72% would be considered major drivers in my opinion. Did Race have 85% or higher?

 

Additionally, we both have to agree that people have a tendency to excuse what the person they support, even if they'd virtually never excuse that person in person.

This happens with Republicans and Democrat's alike. It's not right, I agree that there is no reason to excuse a racist president, but the tendency to excuse your own side doesn't equate to a racist mindset in my mind.

 

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Raider5678

[Ten oz]

11 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

What percentage voted because of racism though?

How is that even measured?

Is there a control group?

 

 

84%, 74%, and 72% would be considered major drivers in my opinion. Did Race have 85% or higher?

 

A better question is what percentage of the policy position is based on race? With regards to Immigration Trump has already made it clear race drives that discussion when he asked where we aren't getting immigrants from Norway. Other issues from gun control to heathcare are steeped in racial tension. 

[Raider5678]

Just now, Ten oz said:

A better question is what percentage of the policy position is based on race? With regards to Immigration Trump has already made it clear race drives that discussion when he asked where we aren't getting immigrants from Norway. Other issues from gun control to heathcare are steeped in racial tension. 

1

But that's not the question I asked, nor do I think it's a better question as it draws away from what I know. 

 

 

Another note, people I know believe that Democrats are the racist ones, often quoting something LBJ allegedly said.

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/did-lbj-say-ill-have-those-nggers-voting-democratic-200-years

 

 

[swansont]

15 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Another note, people I know believe that Democrats are the racist ones, often quoting something LBJ allegedly said.

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/did-lbj-say-ill-have-those-nggers-voting-democratic-200-years

1. Allegedly

2. LBJ was one democrat, not all democrats.(fallacy of unwarranted extrapolation or possibly hasty generalization)

[Raider5678]

2 minutes ago, swansont said:

1. Allegedly

2. LBJ was one democrat, not all democrats.(fallacy of unwarranted extrapolation)

I realize this. I just said that's a common thing many people around me believe.

[CharonY]

In the 60s the default conception regarding race would be considered fairly (or very) racist today. 

[Raider5678]

4 minutes ago, CharonY said:

In the 60s the default conception regarding race would be considered fairly (or very) racist today. 

Again, I realize this.

You're also dealing with people who grew up in the 60's, and believe the Democrats are racist in action, and Republicans are racist in words.

And I know, I know, I know, Trump has done and is currently doing numerous Racist things.

I'm not saying he isn't. Just that that's what people around me believe.

 

Also, I'm starting to dislike the anonymous downvoting.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Raider5678

[CharonY]

What is the relevance of what ridiculous things folks around you believe? Unless you want to discuss how these perceptions arise. 

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

What is the relevance of what ridiculous things folks around you believe? Unless you want to discuss how these perceptions arise. 

We were discussing the factor racism plays in the mindset of Republicans who voted for Trump.

This is common sentiment I've heard from Republican speakers and Republicans around me.