swansont Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 20 minutes ago, Ten oz said: I agree with iNow's position. What will change in their (Democrats) favor in the next 3 weeks. All the GOP agreed to do is address DACA and have a vote. 51 Republicans could vote to end DACA and have all 800,000 protected by DACA be deported and Republicans would still be keeping their end of the bargain. There is widespread support of DACA in both the senate and house. Quote Despite the Senate being nearly split equally the narrative is Republicans need 9 Democrats to pass a budget and not Democrats need 11 Republicans; either adds up to 60 votes. All giving Republicans another 3 weeks does in allow them time to have a 80's style training montage and comeback more prepared to fight. Republicans have repeated proven to be dishonest negotiators. They filibustered Garland demanding 60 votes but then seated Gorsuch with a simple majority. There is no good faith here. There is no status quo. Republicans will move forward in which ever way best suits them and could careless about what they agreed to. This is most the same group that voted to repeal the ACA over 100 times. They do not fear redundant divisive battles or damaging what's in the public's best interest. Their bad faith will have been separated from the budget process and be in the spotlight. What did the democrats lose in this deal?
EdEarl Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) Once the two parties offered different things. Today they are all puppets with the same masters. It's all political theater. Edited January 23, 2018 by EdEarl 1
Raider5678 Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, StringJunky said: Turkey (the country). I always think the country first. It leads to confusion around Thanksgiving. Either way, could you clarify exactly what you mean? I think I know pretty well, but just to make sure.
StringJunky Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, Raider5678 said: I always think the country first. It leads to confusion around Thanksgiving. Either way, could you clarify exactly what you mean? I think I know pretty well, but just to make sure. Just a current example of the electorate gradually giving away their power to influence in exchange for an autocratic, undemocratic style of government.
EdEarl Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, StringJunky said: Just a current example of the electorate gradually giving away their power to influence in exchange for an autocratic, undemocratic style of government. Many are duped by lies (propaganda). I can partly understand why they resist climate change, but have difficult understanding why they are willing to take the chance of mass extinction and the human race. Do they really think lots of money will save them. Edited January 23, 2018 by EdEarl
Ten oz Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, swansont said: There is widespread support of DACA in both the senate and house. There is a widespread that the border wall is a pointless waste of money too. Trump's own cabinet, John Kelly and others, don't want a wall and yet Republicans continue to push for billions in funding for it. There is a widespread belief Trump is an idiot in both house and the senate. In the Senate just off the top of my head Corker, Flakes, McCain, Rubio, Cruz, Graham, have all repudiated Trump numerous times yet hold the party line for him nearly without exception (McCain on healthcare vote the lone exception) over and over again. 14 minutes ago, swansont said: What did the democrats lose in this deal? The nations attention and time. DACA was the only issue that mattered, the only thing to debate. Such singular focus isn't easy to come by 3 weeks from now who knows where our attention might be. A natural disaster, terror attack, or etc could create a situation that pushes DACA to the rear. Lets not forget that Dems were readying themselves for this fight back in late August but then Hurricane Harvey, Irma, and Marie hit and a govt shutdown during a national relief effort simply wasn't good for anything or anyone. It is not a given Democrats will be in a position to shut things down again in 3 weeks if Republicans don't deliver. All it would take is increased North Korean tensions and Republicans could easily sell a shutdown as dangerous to the nations best interests,
iNow Posted January 23, 2018 Author Posted January 23, 2018 1 hour ago, swansont said: They got CHIP and gave up very little. (...) Now the GOP has no excuse. (...) If DACA is not worked out or not brought to a vote, it's because McConnell lied. If it passes the senate and is not voted on in the house, then Ryan is to blame. If the president vetoes it, then it's all on him. I’m sympathetic to this. I’m also glad they didn’t have to fund the wall to do it. We’ll see what happens next. I suppose they could always force another shutdown in 3 weeks, but I’m unconvinced they have the intestinal fortitude required to do so. 55 minutes ago, Ten oz said: There is no good faith here. I hope it doesn’t happen, but wouldn’t be surprised if McConnell changes senate rules to allow budget passage on 51 votes instead of 60 (the so-called nuclear option).
Ten oz Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 50 minutes ago, iNow said: I hope it doesn’t happen, but wouldn’t be surprised if McConnell changes senate rules to allow budget passage on 51 votes instead of 60 (the so-called nuclear option). From Tax Cuts to Gorsuch the GOP hasn't had a problem getting around filibusters and getting the things they want badly enough with a simple majority.
Moontanman Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 None of this bullshit is surprising once you realize just how corrupt, stupid, and dishonest the majority of legislators are. The majority claim to believe in Noah's flood, the system allows them to be legally bribed, and these two points are a recipe for disaster...
Raider5678 Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Moontanman said: None of this bullshit is surprising once you realize just how corrupt, stupid, and dishonest the majority of legislators are. The majority claim to believe in Noah's flood, the system allows them to be legally bribed, and these two points are a recipe for disaster... Technically, polls say around 80% of Americans say they're Christian. So that's democracy. The first point that is.
dimreepr Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 15 minutes ago, Raider5678 said: Technically, polls say around 80% of Americans say they're Christian. So that's democracy. Yes, it's their choice.
Moontanman Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 32 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Yes, it's their choice. Sadly they seem to think they have to do us all a favor and insert their bullshit into reality as though it is reality. If live your life for the promise of another one you tend to make bad decisions about the only life we know we have. In my home state of WV they are requiring schools to teach bible classes as though it is science. If you think Noah's flood really happened, that all animals in their present forms were created in 6 days by a sky fairy, and the Earth is 6,000 years old not to mention that god talks to you for real then you should be allowed around sharp objects... much less be in control of the government... I could go into much more detail about things you have to believe to be a "real" christian or at least pretend to believe so you fit in but I think everyone here is already tired of that bullshit...
Raider5678 Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Sadly they seem to think they have to do us all a favor and insert their bullshit into reality as though it is reality. If live your life for the promise of another one you tend to make bad decisions about the only life we know we have. In my home state of WV they are requiring schools to teach bible classes as though it is science. If you think Noah's flood really happened, that all animals in their present forms were created in 6 days by a sky fairy, and the Earth is 6,000 years old not to mention that god talks to you for real then you should be allowed around sharp objects... much less be in control of the government... I could go into much more detail about things you have to believe to be a "real" christian or at least pretend to believe so you fit in but I think everyone here is already tired of that bullshit... However, it's still a democracy. We can vote who we'd like. Detrimental to ourselves or not.........
dimreepr Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Raider5678 said: However, it's still a democracy. We can vote who we'd like. Detrimental to ourselves or not......... Yup, that was my point... 45 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Sadly they seem to think they have to do us all a favor and insert their bullshit into reality as though it is reality. If live your life for the promise of another one you tend to make bad decisions about the only life we know we have. In my home state of WV they are requiring schools to teach bible classes as though it is science. If you think Noah's flood really happened, that all animals in their present forms were created in 6 days by a sky fairy, and the Earth is 6,000 years old not to mention that god talks to you for real then you should be allowed around sharp objects... much less be in control of the government... I could go into much more detail about things you have to believe to be a "real" christian or at least pretend to believe so you fit in but I think everyone here is already tired of that bullshit... What favor are you trying to install/insert??? Edited January 23, 2018 by dimreepr
Moontanman Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Yup, that was my point... What favor are you trying to install/insert??? They are required by their faith to convert everyone is not a christian. They actually think that shoving that nonsense into all aspects of society is doing us non believers a favor... This an example of what magical thinking results in, the really dangerous ones call themselves dominionists. https://www.politicalresearch.org/2016/08/18/dominionism-rising-a-theocratic-movement-hiding-in-plain-sight/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology And this https://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/jerusalem-expert-slams-pence-treating-city-like-end-days-biblical-theme-park/ Edited January 23, 2018 by Moontanman
dimreepr Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Moontanman said: They are required by their faith to convert everyone is not a christian. They actually think that shoving that nonsense into all aspects of society is doing us non believers a favor... This an example of what magical thinking results in, the really dangerous ones call themselves dominionists. https://www.politicalresearch.org/2016/08/18/dominionism-rising-a-theocratic-movement-hiding-in-plain-sight/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology And this https://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/jerusalem-expert-slams-pence-treating-city-like-end-days-biblical-theme-park/ Doesn't everyone get a vote?
Moontanman Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 17 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Doesn't everyone get a vote? Not in their world, the intolerant cannot be tolerated, tyranny by the majority is still tyranny...
iNow Posted January 23, 2018 Author Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, dimreepr said: Doesn't everyone get a vote? Not really. https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2017/05/12/432339/five-truths-voter-suppression/ 1
iNow Posted January 24, 2018 Author Posted January 24, 2018 (edited) This is an interesting update. The wall is off the table. It was offered. That offer was rebuked. Now you’ll get nothing and like it. At least, that’s the talking point. Let’s see what the reality is in ~20days. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/23/us/politics/immigration-wall-mexico-schumer-senate.html Quote The administration has asked Congress for $18 billion to build the wall; Mr. Cornyn said that in negotiations with the White House before the shutdown, Mr. Schumer had offered the president $25 billion. A spokesman for Mr. Schumer declined to comment but did not dispute the figure. But Mr. Schumer said he rescinded the offer because Mr. Trump had rejected the rest of the immigration package. “The wall offer was made as part of a broader deal. The president rejected that broader deal, so the offer is off the table,” Mr. Schumer said. Mr. Graham said he had a message for the administration. “To my friends at the White House: You’ve been all over the board,” he said. “You haven’t been a reliable partner, and the Senate is going to move. Please be constructive as we go forward. If you’ve got any ideas, let us know, but the Senate is going to lead on this issue.” Edited January 24, 2018 by iNow
CharonY Posted January 24, 2018 Posted January 24, 2018 On 1/23/2018 at 6:00 AM, swansont said: There is widespread support of DACA in both the senate and house. What I am worried about is that the rhetoric has changed. Instead of Dreamers they were increasingly called "Illegals" during the shutdown. Also there is this.
swansont Posted January 24, 2018 Posted January 24, 2018 1 hour ago, CharonY said: Also there is this. At which point Paul Ryan gets to explain to the country why he won't bring the bill up for a vote.
CharonY Posted January 24, 2018 Posted January 24, 2018 4 hours ago, swansont said: At which point Paul Ryan gets to explain to the country why he won't bring the bill up for a vote. And I fear that they may spin it as a safeguard against "murderous illegal hordes" with little pushback from their base. But we'll see. It does seem that it is really down to a power struggle between the moderates and extremes in the GOP. The former seemed to get hammered since the tea party days, though.
iNow Posted January 24, 2018 Author Posted January 24, 2018 23 minutes ago, CharonY said: they may spin it as a safeguard against "murderous illegal hordes" with little pushback from their base They already are. This ad was released right in the middle of the shutdown suggesting that democrats are complicit in murders committed by illegal aliens:
John Cuthber Posted February 11, 2018 Posted February 11, 2018 Well, they nearly had another go at it.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42999286
iNow Posted February 11, 2018 Author Posted February 11, 2018 It lasted about 3 hours. Senator Rand Paul from Kentucky (to his credit) stuck to his tea party principles and spoke out against how the bill further increases the deficit. That said, a few weeks prior he also voted for a tax cut that had a far larger negative effect on that same deficit.
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