DOJ and FBI under attack

[Ten oz]

In the past year we have seen the Acting Attorney General Sally Yates fired and the Director of the FBI fired. Trump openly attacked the current Attorney General Jeff Session and the DOJ on twitter and in interviews for not investigating his political rivals until they relented and launched new probes into Hillary Clinton. Now the Deputy Director of the FBI Andrew McCabe ,whom's wife Trump has attacked on social media, has resigned. Meanwhile the House Intelligence Committee voted along party lines to release a classified memo Republicans believe show corruption within the FBI. Comey has already testified under oath that Trump had told him he expect loyalty. Trump has openly lamented that he never would have made Sessions Attorney General if he knew Session would recuse himself in the Russia investigation. The pattern is clear. Trump wants the DOJ and FBI to be political loyal to him personally and has actively sought to disrupt any investigations into his (Trump's) wrong doing. The abuse of power is rather self evident yet it doesn't seem as though there is any recourse. Provided Congress supports the behavior is a POTUS above the law? Is there any constitutional avenue members of the DOJ or FBI can pursue to shield themselves? 

When Black Lives Matter where growing support a lot of people on the right insisted that Police were hero's doing a tough job. Blue Lives Matter and All Lives Matter sprung up to counter Black Lives Matter. If people just did what they were told, followed instructions, all would be fine many argued. Republicans complained that Police Officers around the country were under attack. What incredible hypocrisy that they now standby silently has Trump tar and feathers the DOJ and FBI. James Comey started his career in law enforcement in 1985, Andrew McCabe in 1996, and Sally Yates in 1989. The DOJ and FBI employee people who have spent decades on the job working under multiple different administration now see their service challenged to protect Trump. 

[Raider5678]

I realize you've bolded a question, but many of these threads have shown up.

And I don't support Trump, however this is basically a thread to complain about him. It's pointless.

Just saying.

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Raider5678

[Raider5678]

3 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

Look, any thinking person knows what this is all about.  The goal of all these investigations is simply to stymie Trumps agenda.  

1

Hillary Clinton was under massive investigation.

Was that okay?

[EdEarl]

I think these attacks are part of a greater campaign to hide the truth. The FBI and DOJ use true data, other data, and personal opinion to convict law breakers; thus, they are attacked. They prefer true data, since it is less likely to be tossed by a judge than other data.

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

I realize you've bolded a question, but many of these threads have shown up.

And I don't support Trump, however this is basically a thread to complain about him. It's pointless.

Just saying.

 

Many people have been warned in various threads to stay on topic. I specifically want to address the attacks the White House has launched on members on the FBI and DOJ. Which already existing thread do you believe this fits into? The Deputy Director of the FBI resigned yesterday amid pressure. So it isn't as though this isn't timely. 

1 hour ago, waitforufo said:

 

1 hour ago, waitforufo said:

He has been under investigation for over a year and nothing on Trump has been uncovered. 

His National Security Advisor lying to the FBI about Russia is nothing? The former FBI Director testifying under oath that Trump asked for loyal and for him to drop the investigation into Flynn's activity is nothing? Trump Jr and Kushner meeting with what they understood to be Russian intelligence to get dirt on Clinton is nothing? 

1 hour ago, waitforufo said:

Look, any thinking person knows what this is all about.  The goal of all these investigations is simply to stymie Trumps agenda

His National Security Advisor has already pled guilty. Hard to imagine any administration nit being investigated under these circumstances. It was his own Attorney General who recused himself that led to the independent investigation. A move celebrated at the time by both Republicans and Democrats. 

 

2 hours ago, waitforufo said:

The core problem for Trump's opponents is that his policies might work.

Any Politician's policies "might" work. That is no excuse to ignore the law. 

 

2 hours ago, waitforufo said:

So what is with the rant on racism? 

Where did I mention race or Racism? 

[swansont]

39 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Many people have been warned in various threads to stay on topic. 

!

Moderator Note

I will reiterate this for the record. Discussion is to be about the WH attacks on the DOJ and FBI. 

 

Quote

Where did I mention race or Racism? 

!

Moderator Note

I will second this as well, but warn that it is to be considered a rhetorical question. (i.e. there was no rant racism. Participants are warned not to bring up any more red herrings. The post in question has been moved)

 

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, EdEarl said:

I think these attacks are part of a greater campaign to hide the truth. The FBI and DOJ use true data, other data, and personal opinion to convict law breakers; thus, they are attacked. They prefer true data, since it is less likely to be tossed by a judge than other data.

I am amazed at how quickly Republican voters have fallen in line. A year or two ago if you had told me that Republicans would be openly demagoguing Law Enforcement agencies I wouldn't have believe it. Republicans have normally been the party that held up law enforcement officials as Heroes. 

[Raider5678]

6 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I am amazed at how quickly Republican voters have fallen in line. A year or two ago if you had told me that Republicans would be openly demagoguing Law Enforcement agencies I wouldn't have believe it. Republicans have normally been the party that held up law enforcement officials as Heroes. 

This isn't exactly the case, it's a lot more complicated.

Republicans support cops, police officers, swat, etc. 

Stuff like that.

Once you get to the higher-ups in the FBI which is closely tied to political gains, they're essentially politicians in most Republican's eye. 

They're not demagoguing law enforcement, they're demagoguing politicians.

 

And the customary disclaimer.

I'm not saying they're right to do so. But you do have to make a distinction between what they're saying and what you think they're saying.

[Ten oz]

26 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Once you get to the higher-ups in the FBI which is closely tied to political gains, they're essentially politicians in most Republican's eye. 

They're not demagoguing law enforcement, they're demagoguing politicians.

FBI members are Politicians? The FBI investigates federal crimes. The are federal law enforcement officers. A local police officers jurisdiction ends at the city line. FBI are able to handle things that cross state lines. They investigate serial killers, terrorists, drug dealers,  human trafficking, fraud, and etc. There is nothing inherently Political about them.

[Raider5678]

11 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

FBI members are Politicians? The FBI investigates federal crimes. The are federal law enforcement officers. A local police officers jurisdiction ends at the city line. FBI are able to handle things that cross state lines. They investigate serial killers, terrorists, drug dealers,  human trafficking, fraud, and etc. There is nothing inherently Political about them.

Read again.

Higher-ups.

Not the FBI.

Essentially, the people in control of the FBI. And you know that's what I said. I was not referencing everyone in the FBI.

[Ten oz]

29 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Read again.

Higher-ups.

Not the FBI.

Essentially, the people in control of the FBI. And you know that's what I said. I was not referencing everyone in the FBI.

Firing the Director, bullying the deputy director, and demagoguing field agents (Strzok and Carter) negatively impacts the whole agency. Additionally Politically pressuring agencies, as Trump has done to both the DOJ and FBI, to investigate his political rivals wastes agencies resources. It isn't only the highest level people. Thousands of agents can be involved in investigations. Trump is politicizing both agencies and it has detrimental impacts on their abilities to function. 

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, Ten oz said:

Firing the Director, bullying the deputy director, and demagoguing field agents (Strzok and Carter) negatively impacts the whole agency. Additionally Politically pressuring agencies, as Trump has done to both the DOJ and FBI, to investigate his political rivals wastes agencies resources. It isn't only the highest level people. Thousands of agents can be involved in investigations. Trump is politicizing both agencies and it has detrimental impacts on their abilities to function. 

Considering the FBI is controlled by people, humans, who's job is closely tied to politics in many areas, they were politicized long before Trump came along.

[Ten oz]

Let's not forget that it was Republicans that insisted Hillary Clinton be investigated in the first place. Now years, millions of dollars, and countless man hours later it is Republicans criticizing those they tasked investigating for not reaching the desired Political outcomes Republicans wanted. It is abusive to those agencies. DOJ and the FBI need to be able to function by the letter of the law and not as a political tool.

[Raider5678]

Just now, Ten oz said:

Let's not forget that it was Republicans that insisted Hillary Clinton be investigated in the first place. Now years, millions of dollars, and countless man hours later it is Republicans criticizing those they tasked investigating for not reaching the desired Political outcomes Republicans wanted. It is abusive to those agencies. DOJ and the FBI need to be able to function by the letter of the law and not as a political tool.

Hillary Clinton was not investigated solely on the insistence of Republicans.

 

[Ten oz]

3 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Considering the FBI is controlled by people, humans, who's job is closely tied to politics in many areas, they were politicized long before Trump came along.

Which means what. All agencies are ran by humans. Does that mean we should tolerate all Political mistreatment? Do you honestly not think Trump is disrupting there ability to do their job? 

[Raider5678]

Just now, Ten oz said:

Which means what. All agencies are ran by humans. Does that mean we should tolerate all Political mistreatment? Do you honestly not think Trump is disrupting there ability to do their job? 

I said nothing of the such.

You said Trump politicized the FBI and the DOJ. I simply pointed out it's highly likely they were politicized long before Trump.

What do any of your other statements you just said have to do with that? It's not a tangent of debate I was trying to start, I simply stated something.

[CharonY]

12 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Considering the FBI is controlled by people, humans, who's job is closely tied to politics in many areas, they were politicized long before Trump came along.

Thing is that the FBI is known to be conservative leaning and IIRC most directors were Republicans. What has happened is that there is now a new rift along the Trump fault line among conservatives that will test loyalties.

[Raider5678]

6 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Thing is that the FBI is known to be conservative leaning and IIRC most directors were Republicans. What has happened is that there is now a new rift along the Trump fault line among conservatives that will test loyalties.

But that doesn't contradict what I said.

All I said was that you can't just point and Trump and say he's politicized everything, it was politicized long before he came along.

 

Additionally, if it's so Right-leaning why are they even investigating Trump in the first place?

Would they not simply drop it and say he's an angel? As per Republican tradition?

 

 

 

Also, out of interest, what exactly has Trump done?

In your own words.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Raider5678

[Ten oz]

14 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Hillary Clinton was not investigated solely on the insistence of Republicans.

 

"Some experts, officials, and members of Congress have contended that her use of private messaging systemsoftware and a private server violated State Department protocols and procedures, as well as federal laws and regulations governing recordkeeping. In response, Clinton has said that her use of personal email was in compliance with federal laws and State Department regulations, and that former secretaries of state had also maintained personal email accounts, though not their own private email servers.

After allegations were raised that some of the emails in question contained classified information, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) initiated an investigation regarding the origin and handling of classified emails on Clinton's server."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton_email_controversy

The FBI only got involved because of the accusations made by Republican in Congress. I will not waste time debating the fact in depth as it is off topic. I only mentioned it to point out that Republicans are now attacking agents for their handling of the Clinton probe despite that fact that Republicans were the reasons the probes existed in the first place. 

[CharonY]

1 minute ago, Raider5678 said:

Additionally, if it's so Right-leaning why are they even investigating Trump in the first place?

Would they not simply drop it and say he's an angel? As per Republican tradition?

Apparently you are missing the point.Regardless of their political orientation, they are a law enforcement institution (which was OP outlined). The fact that they are starting an investigation targeting politically affiliated people in power (in fact, higher in the hierarchy than themselves) indicates that there is a ground which is not political. If they were attacking political opponents, you may have a point.

 

 

[Raider5678]

4 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

"Some experts, officials, and members of Congress have contended that her use of private messaging systemsoftware and a private server violated State Department protocols and procedures, as well as federal laws and regulations governing recordkeeping. In response, Clinton has said that her use of personal email was in compliance with federal laws and State Department regulations, and that former secretaries of state had also maintained personal email accounts, though not their own private email servers.

After allegations were raised that some of the emails in question contained classified information, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) initiated an investigation regarding the origin and handling of classified emails on Clinton's server."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton_email_controversy

The FBI only got involved because of the accusations made by Republican in Congress. I will not waste time debating the fact in depth as it is off topic. I only mentioned it to point out that Republicans are now attacking agents for their handling of the Clinton probe despite that fact that Republicans were the reasons the probes existed in the first place. 

You literally just quoted that it was Experts, officials, and members of Congress.

And then said it was pretty much only because of members of Congress. 

Just saying, that contradicts itself.

2 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Apparently you are missing the point.Regardless of their political orientation, they are a law enforcement institution (which was OP outlined). The fact that they are starting an investigation targeting politically affiliated people in power (in fact, higher in the hierarchy than themselves) indicates that there is a ground which is not political. If they were attacking political opponents, you may have a point.

1

They are a law enforcement institution. Got it.

The fact they're even investigating Trump indicates that there is ground which is not political. Got it.

If they were attacking political opponents, then there could be proof it's politicized? I'm not sure what you mean. What comes after if they were attacking political opponents?

Edited January 30, 2018 by Raider5678

[Ten oz]

3 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

But that doesn't contradict what I said.

You are just being argumentative. Trump is being investigated for Corruption of Justice. We already know for a fact people in his cabinet lied to the FBI; Flynn has already pled guilty to it. Saying that all senior FBI people are political is just a bit of Whataboutism. The President doesn't have the right to obstruct justice. His attacks against the FBI and senior members of DOJ are meant to disrupt their ongoing investigation. It is illegal. It doesn't matter whether you think FBI and DOJ officials are Politicians first or not. 

[Raider5678]

8 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

It doesn't matter whether you think FBI and DOJ officials are Politicians first or not. 

 

But when I said that it had nothing to do with whether it was illegal or not.

It was in response to you saying Republicans did an about-face on law enforcement. 

 

11 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Trump is being investigated for Corruption of Justice.

 

Trump is being investigated for Corruption of Justice?

What happened to the Russia scandal?

[Ten oz]

7 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Trump is being investigated for Corruption of Justice?

What happened to the Russia scandal?

Yes, obstruction of justice in the Russian investigation. What are you confused about. Just Google Trump and obstruction of justice. You'll get millions of related links. 

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

Republicans support cops, police officers, swat, etc. 

Stuff like that.

Once you get to the higher-ups in the FBI which is closely tied to political gains, they're essentially politicians in most Republican's eye. 

They're not demagoguing law enforcement, they're demagoguing politicians.

Republicans support the FBI when it suits them (like during one of the many, many, many Clinton investigations), and treat them like big government feds interfering in their personal business when it might cost them (like if Trump colluded with Putin). This is one of those times when they get to shove the boys in blue under the bus because they're federal authorities (and that's bad apparently). 

They've embraced a rancid stain of a human being just because he won for the party. Can you even imagine how the Republicans would be reacting if Hillary won but did what Trump has done (GOP reaction to Hillary firing Comey - BOOM)? Can you imagine they would be pressuring the FBI to ignore Russia and just move on?