DOJ and FBI under attack

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

Tangential discussion on 2016 politics has been split. The topic HERE is Trump/GOP attacking the DOJ and FBI

https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/113183-2016-politics-split-from-doj-and-fbi-under-attack/

 

[Ten oz]

17 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Can you even imagine how the Republicans would be reacting if Hillary won but did what Trump has done (GOP reaction to Hillary firing Comey - BOOM)? Can you imagine they would be pressuring the FBI to ignore Russia and just move on?

Robert Mueller was appointed FBI Director by Bush 's first year after Bush pressured Louis Freeh to resign and Mueller remained Director through Obama's full first term. As investigations into Benghazi, Fast Furious, and etc kicked around Obama never threatened investigators, fired career govt employees, or etc. Clinton has sat under oath before Congressional panels led by Republicans and answered questions. So did Holder, Lynch, Susan Rice, and etc. Obama could have claimed executive privilege and kept them from having to testify but he did not. Obama was always careful not to interfere with legal proceedings or investigations. When people attempt to equate what Trump is do to what Hillary Clinton or Obama did they do so from a position of extreme bias. What Trump is doing to the FBI is unprecedented in modern (post WW2) time. We have never seen it before.  

[StringJunky]

8 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Robert Mueller was appointed FBI Director by Bush 's first year after Bush pressured Louis Freeh to resign and Mueller remained Director through Obama's full first term. As investigations into Benghazi, Fast Furious, and etc kicked around Obama never threatened investigators, fired career govt employees, or etc. Clinton has sat under oath before Congressional panels led by Republicans and answered questions. So did Holder, Lynch, Susan Rice, and etc. Obama could have claimed executive privilege and kept them from having to testify but he did not. Obama was always careful not to interfere with legal proceedings or investigations. When people attempt to equate what Trump is do to what Hillary Clinton or Obama did they do so from a position of extreme bias. What Trump is doing to the FBI is unprecedented in modern (post WW2) time. We have never seen it before.  

It looks like Trump is messing with the machinery around him to to fit his agenda. He's acting like Erdogan but under more restrictions. If he had the same freedom I think he would be just the same.

Edited January 31, 2018 by StringJunky

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

It looks like Trump is messing with the machinery around him to to fit his agenda. He's acting like Erdogan but under more restrictions. If he had the same freedom I think he would be just the same.

1

Trump is the queen of hearts, play the game and loose = keep your head.

Edited January 31, 2018 by dimreepr

[Ten oz]

"The statement, released in response to questions from The New York Times about the meeting, has become a focus of the inquiry by Robert S. Mueller III, the special counsel investigating Russian interference in the 2016 election."

"Some lawyers and witnesses who have sat in or been briefed on the interviews have puzzled over Mr. Mueller’s interest in the episode. Lying to federal investigators is a crime; lying to the news media is not. For that reason, some of Mr. Trump’s advisers argue that Mr. Mueller has no grounds to ask the president about the statement and say he should refuse to discuss it."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/us/politics/trump-russia-hope-hicks-mueller.html

In the he said she said war of words between Trump and DOJ/FBI it is those in the DOJ/FBI who have testified under oath. Sally Yates testified under oath that she had briefed Trump about Flynn lying to federal investigators; which Flynn has since pled guilty to. James Comey testified under oath he briefed Trump regarding Russia's interference in our election and that separately Trump had ask him to drop the Flynn investigation.  Lying under oath is a crime. If either Yates or Comey lied they can be prosecuted. Trump and his team initially lied to the media about Yates claiming Flynn had lied to VP Pence only; not federal investigators. Trump and team also claim to the media Comey is lying. Big difference, critical different, Trump and his team are not actually accountable for what they tell the media and know it. Yates and Comey are accountable for what was said under oath. 

As Trump continues his attack on the DOJ and FBI with the release of a memo written by Republican which Trump's own nominated FBI director (Wray) is signalling he'll dispute I think it is critical to keep in mind that Trump and his administration considers lying to the media beyond formal review. The primary means the public has to what is happening is the media. Trump and his team have made it clear that misleading the media/ public is acceptable. With that in mind how can anyone take anything Trump and his public advocates say in good faith?

 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

Lying to federal investigators is a crime; lying to the news media is not.

Ken Starr, who worked to investigate Bill Clinton, an investigation that ultimately led to impeachment hearings, disagrees (video at the link):

 

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

how can anyone take anything Trump and his public advocates say in good faith?

We cannot. 

[Ten oz]

32 minutes ago, iNow said:

Ken Starr, who worked to investigate Bill Clinton, an investigation that ultimately led to impeachment hearings, disagrees (video at the link):

That it is not was Trump's advisers opinion as stated by the NY Times and not necessarily my opinion. I quoted it to highlight the fact that there is no secret that Trump lies to the media regarding the Russia investigation. It is an acknowledge thing within his own circle that he lies to the media.

[iNow]

Yes, I understand that.

Also (unrelated:) We're seeing a lot of errors in your posts lately and some of them are hard to parse. If you're using speech-to-text instead of typing, more proofreading before submitting replies would be appreciated.  

[StringJunky]

13 minutes ago, iNow said:

Yes, I understand that.

Also (unrelated:) We're seeing a lot of errors in your posts lately and some of them are hard to parse. If you're using speech-to-text instead of typing, more proofreading before submitting replies would be appreciated.  

(Scrutinises iNow's post for Skitt's Law confirmation)  

[Ten oz]

22 minutes ago, iNow said:

Yes, I understand that.

Also (unrelated:) We're seeing a lot of errors in your posts lately and some of them are hard to parse. If you're using speech-to-text instead of typing, more proofreading before submitting replies would be appreciated.  

Yes, I've been using my phone more often of late. The combination of fat thumbs and the smaller window on the mobile version of this site hasn't been kind.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Ten oz
LOL

[Raider5678]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-claims-fbi-doj-favors-democrats-expected-approve-release-russia-n843981

 

Adding this to the discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ten oz]

16 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-claims-fbi-doj-favors-democrats-expected-approve-release-russia-n843981

 

Adding this to the discussion.

"WASHINGTON — A memo by House Republicans about the Trump-Russia investigation is inaccurate and misleading, the FBI said in an unusual statement Wednesday, hours after President Donald Trump assured a lawmaker he planned to allow the document to become public.

“We have grave concerns about material omissions of fact that fundamentally impact the memo’s accuracy," the FBI said.

On Monday, FBI Director Christopher Wray and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein went to the White House and appealed to President Trump’s chief of staff, John Kelly, not to make the memo public, two sources familiar with the matter told NBC News. That intervention was first reported by The Washington Post."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-urges-white-house-not-release-gop-russia-probe-memo-n843391

 

FBI National Press Office

January 31, 2018

FBI Statement on HPSCI Memo

The FBI takes seriously its obligations to the FISA Court and its compliance with procedures overseen by career professionals in the Department of Justice and the FBI. We are committed to working with the appropriate oversight entities to ensure the continuing integrity of the FISA process. 

With regard to the House Intelligence Committee’s memorandum, the FBI was provided a limited opportunity to review this memo the day before the committee voted to release it. As expressed during our initial review, we have grave concerns about material omissions of fact that fundamentally impact the memo’s accuracy.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-statement-on-hpsci-memo

 

FBI Director Wray was made FBI Director by Trump himself. Rod Rosenstein was brought into the DOJ by George W Bush (Republican) and Rosenstein himself is a registered Republican. Trump claiming the FBI and DOJ favor Democrats despite the fact that his own appointees run both agencies is stupid.  Wray is the guy Trump tapped to be Direct after he fired Comey. Lets also not forget that Trump initially claimed it was Rosenstein who advised him to fire Comey.

 

[Raider5678]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

FBI Director Wray was made FBI Director by Trump himself. Rod Rosenstein was brought into the DOJ by George W Bush (Republican) and Rosenstein himself is a registered Republican. Trump claiming the FBI and DOJ favor Democrats despite the fact that his own appointees run both agencies is stupid.  Wray is the guy Trump tapped to be Direct after he fired Comey. Lets also not forget that Trump initially claimed it was Rosenstein who advised him to fire Comey.

 

Okay.

And what about the memo? You know. The thing the link was about.

 

The DOJ, the FBI, and the Democrats are saying the Memo is misleading and inaccurate.

The Republicans are saying that the Memo proves that they illegally started the investigation and bias against the Republican Party.

 

I'm fairly certain I know which side you believe. But I'll give you the option to state your opinion.

[Ten oz]

3 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Okay.

And what about the memo? You know. The thing the link was about.

What about it? It was written by Republicans on the House intelligence committee and Trump's own people dispute it. It is a memo. A written opinion and not a formal indictment or something which will be used in court or any other formal legal proceedings. Again, Trump put Wray in charge of the FBI and Wray approved the FBI statement I linked and personally went to the White House to object. 

BTW, what I linked is contained (via hyperlinks) is the story you linked. So don't act as if I changed the topic. I literally sourced your own darn story.....smh

[Raider5678]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

What about it? It was written by Republicans on the House intelligence committee and Trump's own people dispute it. It is a memo. A written opinion and not a formal indictment or something which will be used in court or any other formal legal proceedings. Again, Trump put Wray in charge of the FBI and Wray approved the FBI statement I linked and personally went to the White House to object. 

BTW, what I linked is contained (via hyperlinks) is the story you linked. So don't act as if I changed the topic. I literally sourced your own darn story.....smh

The memo alleges that the Russia investigation was kickstarted based off of illegally obtained evidence given to the FBI by Democrats.

Which is essentially the same thing he's being investigated for. Attempted political sabotage.

 

Additionally, if you say it matters so little, that it's simply an opinion with no actual legal power or point, then why is it such a large controversy over whether to release it or not?

If it didn't actually point to anything, prove anything, or really do anything, there'd be very little reason to not release it.

The classified things that are in the memo are all related to the source of the investigation of the Russia investigation. I.E. who supplied it, how they obtained it, etc. 

Those things are classified because they ARE true. They are an actual part of the investigation, meaning that it's not just a written opinion but something that can be used in legal proceedings. Now I don't think it's going to convict anyone or anything like that, but it will seriously undermine the Russia investigation and I don't think it should be released.

 

If the FBI is proven to have used illegally obtained evidence to start a federal investigation the whole thing could go downhill. Trump might as well have a get out of jail free card.

So while you may not care if it's released or not,  I do.

If the Democrats did illegal things I really don't care. It's nothing new to me and Republicans do literally the same thing. 

However, I would like to see the Russia investigation played out instead of ended based on a legal loophole. 

[Ten oz]

Just now, Raider5678 said:

The memo alleges that the Russia investigation was kickstarted based off of illegally obtained evidence given to the FBI by Democrats.

Which is essentially the same thing he's being investigated for. Attempted political sabotage.

Which Trump's own appointees dispute as inaccurate.

 

2 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Additionally, if you say it matters so little, that it's simply an opinion with no actual legal power or point, then why is it such a large controversy over whether to release it or not?

Because it is designed to hurt the credibility of the FBI and DOJ which has detrimental impacts on their ability to function.

 

4 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

The classified things that are in the memo are all related to the source of the investigation of the Russia investigation. I.E. who supplied it, how they obtained it, etc.

FBI Director Wray (Trump's guy) says they cherry picked the classified information; "omissions of fact that fundamentally impact the memo’s accuracy". 

 

7 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Those things are classified because they ARE true.

The things omitted are true always. The memo doesn't provide the full story.

 

9 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

They are an actual part of the investigation, meaning that it's not just a written opinion but something that can be used in legal proceedings.

Nope, the memo is not and will not be used in any legal proceedings less Mueller uses it to cite Nunes with obstruction.

 

13 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

 

If the FBI is proven to have used illegally obtained evidence to start a federal investigation the whole thing could go downhill

Sure, "if" covers anything and everything. There is zero creditable evidence you can cite that this was the case.

 

18 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

So while you may not care if it's released or not,  I do.

You enjoy being mislead?

 

19 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

If the Democrats did illegal things I really don't care. It's nothing new to me and Republicans do literally the same thing.

 What are you referencing. No one from the Obama's admin was found guilty of committing crimes.

 

28 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

However, I would like to see the Russia investigation played out instead of ended based on a legal loophole. 

You realize that this memo has ZERO legal impact on the Mueller investigation right?

[iNow]

The memo's been released. It's very one-sided and paints a picture more like a political ad than an intelligence committee memo. Some stuff about Steele not being a fan of Trump and releasing info to the press, not disclosing on the FISA that funding came from HRC campaign.

It's sad that intelligence and justice department are being used as political pawns (by a guy -- Nunez -- who's already had to recuse himself after getting a document from the WH then telling the press he found intel that he had to share with the WH), but in the end it's a bit of a nothing burger. People will interpret it to suit their existing biases.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4365343-Rep-Devin-Nunes-s-memo.html#document/p1

 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/2/16955222/trump-releasethememo

Quote

The basic argument behind the memo is this: Clinton’s presidential campaign funded the creation of the Steele dossier, and the FBI used the dossier as the flimsy basis for a warrant to surveil Page. With Rosenstein signing off on continued surveillance of Page in 2017, this somehow proves that the investigation into the Trump campaign’s Russia ties is entirely based on support for Clinton within the FBI and anti-Trump animus.

<...>

the release of the Nunes memo only serves to escalate the conflict between the FBI and the Department of Justice and Trump’s Republican allies on Capitol Hill and in the White House itself.

 

[Ten oz]

29 minutes ago, iNow said:

The memo's been released. It's very one-sided and paints a picture more like a political ad than an intelligence committee memo. Some stuff about Steele not being a fan of Trump and releasing info to the press, not disclosing on the FISA that funding came from HRC campaign.

It's sad that intelligence and justice department are being used as political pawns (by a guy -- Nunez -- who's already had to recuse himself after getting a document from the WH then telling the press he found intel that he had to share with the WH), but in the end it's a bit of a nothing burger. People will interpret it to suit their existing biases.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4365343-Rep-Devin-Nunes-s-memo.html#document/p1

 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/2/16955222/trump-releasethememo

 

If any crimes were actually committed Attorney General Sessions could have everyone involved prosecuted. The fact that these claims are coming in the from of an inter office memo between Nunes and his aides rather than in the form of indictments tells us everything we need to know. 

[iNow]

Former Jeb Bush aide reacts to memo: “Hahahahaha.”

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/2/16965082/republican-operative-hypocrisy-nunes-memo

Quote

As far as Republican operative Tim Miller, who was formerly on Jeb Bush’s presidential campaign and advised the anti-Trump Super PAC Our Principles, is concerned, the highly anticipated Republican “memo” on the FBI’s Russia investigation into Donald Trump’s campaign was much ado about nothing.

The release of California Republican Rep. Devin Nunes’s controversial memo, which conservatives spent weeks claiming would reveal earth-shattering evidence of partisan bias that would permanently damage the ongoing investigation, turned out to be somewhat underwhelming to many.

<...>

But with the release of the memo, Miller pointed out a series of hypocrisies in the conservative campaign to put an end to special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation into Trump’s campaign, tweeting about known actions by the Trump campaign:

1. Russia hacked Trumps opponents private email to influence election

2. Trump gleefully used that hacked info

3. Trump team had meetings with Russians explicitly about dirt on Hillary

4. They lied about those meetings repeatedly.

5. The FBI’s only public action during campaign actually targeted Hillary, not these actions by Trumpworld.

“If you concede all those points and then want to argue that this memo is the ‘real scandal’ — then ok let’s hear it,” Miller said, pointing out that the memo fever, compared to the actual information in the memo, doesn’t begin to compare to the series of Russia-tied scandals the Trump administration and campaign has found itself in this year.

 

[iNow]

Thinking more about this, it’s a bit like the GOP representatives on the House Intellgence Committee  tried to convince us all that Simba in The Lion King was evil, and they tried to do so by only showing us the scene at very the end of the movie where Simba tosses his Uncle Scar over the cliff face and into the hyena pit... ignoring the entire rest of the movie and relevant context. “See! He’s evil!! He threw his uncle over the cliff!”

Or, similarly it’s as if they tried to convince us that the witch in Snow White was kind and generous by only showing us the one scene where she gives Snow White the apple. 

“A lot of people should be ashamed of themselves, and much worse than that.”

[Ten oz]

[Ten oz]

Rachel Brand, the third-ranking official at the Justice Department, will step down from the job, NBC News reported Friday.

The New York Times first reported her decision.

The associate attorney general's move follows President Donald Trump's repeated attacks on the department for its role in the probe into Russian interference in the 2016 election.

Crucially, Brand may have overseen special counsel Robert Mueller's Russia probe if Trump decided to fire deputy attorney general Rod Rosenstein, who he has repeatedly criticized. Attorney General Jeff Sessions recused himself from the investigation.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/09/justice-department-rachel-brand-is-stepping-down.html

[Ten oz]

"WASHINGTON — The Justice Department's No. 3 attorney had been unhappy with her job for months before the department announced her departure on Friday, according to multiple sources close to Associate Attorney General Rachel Brand. Brand grew frustrated by vacancies at the department and feared she would be asked to oversee the Russia investigation, the sources said. She will be leaving the Justice Department in the coming weeks to take a position with Walmart as the company's executive vice president of global governance and corporate secretary, a job change that had been in the works for some time, the sources said.

As far back as last fall, Brand had expressed to friends that she felt overwhelmed and unsupported in her job, especially as many key positions under her jurisdiction had still not been filled with permanent, Senate-confirmed officials. Four of the 13 divisions overseen by the associate attorney general remain unfilled, including the civil rights division and the civil division, over one year into the Trump administration."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/justice-department-official-brand-leaves-partly-over-fear-she-might-n847156

 

 

[Ten oz]

President Trump tweeted late Saturday that he is "very sad" the FBI missed the possible warning signs about Florida shooting suspect and the they are "spending too much time trying to prove Russian collusion." He also added "there is no collusion" and the FBI should "get back to the basics and make us all proud!" 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-attacks-fbi-handling-of-florida-shooting-suspect-russia-investigation-in-tweet/

Trump is blaming the amount of time and energy the FBI is spending investigating Russia as the reason warning signs in Florida were missed. Meanwhile members of Trump's campaign have already plead guilty to misleading FBI officials. The FBI wouldn't have to have spent so much time and continue to spend so much time investigating Russia if Trump and his team simple cooperated with the investigation. 

[John Cuthber]

If Trump and his team  hadn't colluded with Russia in the first place the FBI wouldn't need to spend any time on an investigation.