DOJ and FBI under attack

[geordief]

How does Trump's "hiding in plain sight" speech factor in ? You know , the one where he said "if the Russians are listening" (Hilary's emails)

He was using the Russian alleged activity as a tool. Did that amount to de facto collusion on a personal level?

 

Agree that his latest tweet is  nauseating and transparent.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, geordief said:

How does Trump's "hiding in plain sight" speech factor in ? You know , the one where he said "if the Russians are listening" (Hilary's emails)

He was using the Russian alleged activity as a tool. Did that amount to de facto collusion on a personal level?

 

Agree that his latest tweet is  nauseating and transparent.

!

Moderator Note

Discuss attacks on DOJ and FBI, not collusion.

 

[geordief]

OK .Is this attack designed to feed what he might see as "his faction " in the FBI?

Is he ,in his mind preparing the ground for more purges  and discrediting those as he see as his enemies in their ranks if push comes to shove and he feels he has to have a "night of the long knives" down the  road?

He just doesn't realize that decency  should warn him not to conflate such a terrible event and  what passes for normal day to day politics in his head?

A rat in a trap?  What politicians will actively or passively support him on this subject? 

[iNow]

The basic structure is to attack the messenger like this:

Assert: The DOJ and FBI lack credibility.

Consequence: For this reason, suggestions Trump cheated in the election cannot be trusted.

Reinforce: Look, here we see again how the FBI lacks credibility. They couldn’t even protect these kids after being proactively and repeatedly warned by locals. 

Consequence: For this reason, suggestions Trump cheated in the election cannot be trusted.

While we outrage over Trump nonsequiturs and idiocy, the propaganda works and they’ll keep reinforcing with other tangential distractions. 

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

The basic structure is to attack the messenger like this:

Assert: The DOJ and FBI lack credibility.

Consequence: For this reason, suggestions Trump cheated in the election cannot be trusted.

Reinforce: Look, here we see again how the FBI lacks credibility. They couldn’t even protect these kids after being proactively and repeatedly warned by locals. 

Consequence: For this reason, suggestions Trump cheated in the election cannot be trusted.

While we outrage over Trump nonsequiturs and idiocy, the propaganda works and they’ll keep reinforcing with other tangential distractions. 

Meanwhile Trump nominated people run both DOJ/ FBI and it is the Presidents job to expertly oversee all federal agencies. Trump is actually attacking his own executive performance. 

[John Cuthber]

About 30 years ago, at the height of the cold war there was a joke, something like

"thieves broke into the Kremlin and stole next years election results".

Today they could do the same thing, but the results would be those for the Whitehouse.

However, the man in the Whitehouse is only there because of the Russian's influence, and he plainly wants  to stay there.

How hard is he going to try to stop the Russians?
 

[geordief]

1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

 

How hard is he going to try to stop the Russians?
 

Good question.Hopefully out of his hands.

[Ten oz]

?WASHINGTON — Andrew G. McCabe, the former F.B.I. deputy director and a frequent target of President Trump’s scorn, was fired Friday after Attorney General Jeff Sessions rejected an appeal that would have let him retire this weekend. Mr. McCabe promptly declared that his firing, and Mr. Trump’s persistent needling, were intended to undermine the special counsel’s investigation in which he is a potential witness. Mr. McCabe is accused in a yet-to-be-released internal report of failing to be forthcoming about a conversation he authorized between F.B.I. officials and a journalist. In a statement released late Friday, Mr. Sessions said that Mr. McCabe had shown a lack of candor under oath on multiple occasions."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/16/us/politics/andrew-mccabe-fbi-fired.html

It is rich to see Sessions, who was caught lying under oath at his conformation hearing, accuse McCabe of "lack of candor". It is vindictive and unethical to dying McCabe the ability to retire. He serviced the FBI for over 20yrs and is not having his public image attack and his future upended because the new administration doesn't like him. This will impact the FBI's ability to recruit talented people. Who wants to give a career to an agency if for political gamesmanship they might be turned into a pinata? 

[swansont]

23 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

In a statement released late Friday, Mr. Sessions said that Mr. McCabe had shown a lack of candor under oath on multiple occasions."

And Sessions knows all about that.

[geordief]

I see L Mensch has  tweeted that the aim was to get Sessions to refuse to fire McCabe and so have cause to  fire him (and thereafter get someone in who can fire Mueller)

Edited March 17, 2018 by geordief

[Ten oz]

4 hours ago, geordief said:

I see L Mensch has  tweeted that the aim was to get Sessions to refuse to fire McCabe and so have cause to  fire him (and thereafter get someone in who can fire Mueller)

It is definitely all one big game to the White House. I means to defame those who speak truth to his actions. It is very sad that after 21yrs of service McCabe may possibly lose the pension he has earn because partisan politicians lack the integrity to act. Though it is increasingly becoming common I am still caught out guard by the casual way conservatives accept the abuses of power display by this President.  

[CharonY]

Statement from McCabe.

Quote

Here is the reality: I am being singled out and treated this way because of the role I played, the actions I took, and the events I witnessed in the aftermath of the firing of James Comey. The release of this report was accelerated only after my testimony to the House Intelligence Committee revealed that I would corroborate former Director Comey's accounts of his discussions with the President. The OIG's focus on me and this report became a part of an unprecedented effort by the Administration, driven by the President himself, to remove me from my position, destroy my reputation, and possibly strip me of a pension that I worked 21 years to earn. The accelerated release of the report, and the punitive actions taken in response, make sense only when viewed through this lens. Thursday's comments from the White House are just the latest example of this.

This attack on my credibility is one part of a larger effort not just to slander me personally, but to taint the FBI, law enforcement, and intelligence professionals more generally. It is part of this Administration's ongoing war on the FBI and the efforts of the Special Counsel investigation, which continue to this day. Their persistence in this campaign only highlights the importance of the Special Counsel's work.

 

[Ten oz]

I am glad to see that efforts are being made to protect McCabe's earned pension:

Quote

 

U.S. Representative Mark Pocan extended an offer of employment to former Deputy Director of the FBI Andrew McCabe Saturday morning.

The offer would get McCabe the needed length of service to qualify for pension benefits after President Trump fired him just days before he was set to retire.

"My offer of employment to Mr. McCabe is a legitimate offer to work on election security. Free and fair elections are the cornerstone of American democracy and both Republicans and Democrats should be concerned about election integrity,” Pocan said. “I’d like to thank Mr. McCabe for his years of service to the FBI and our country. He deserves the full retirement that he has been promised, not to have it taken away as a result of the President’s political games.”

http://www.nbc15.com/content/news/Pocan-extends-job-offer-to-Andrew-McCabe-477177033.html

 

 

[StringJunky]

26 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I am glad to see that efforts are being made to protect McCabe's earned pension:

 

It's good to see the system trying to stay stable through Trump's shennanigans. If Trump's presidency is revealing anything, it's giving a good view of how the US government and connected agencies work and where the lines of autonomy are between them. I do hope Mueller survives long enough and presents the full unvarnished details.

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

It's good to see the system trying to stay stable through Trump's shennanigans. If Trump's presidency is revealing anything, it's giving a good view of how the US government and connected agencies work and where the lines of autonomy are between them. I do hope Mueller survives long enough and presents the full unvarnished details.

A lot of laws will be rewritten once Trump is gone. We will see updated regulations for nepotism, conflicts of interest, wealth and taxation transparency, and etc. So many of the positions Trump is firing people from require congressional approval to hold their positions in the first place perhaps firing those same officials once approved should also have some congressional oversight? Trump's abuses begs to question many things. Tragically I believe everyone of all partisan perspectives never want to allow a repeat of Trump yet Republicans continue to bail water for the guy. Changes to the law which will prevent a repeat of Trump will be swift and bipartisan. It is pathetic we have to wait.

[StringJunky]

9 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

A lot of laws will be rewritten once Trump is gone. We will see updated regulations for nepotism, conflicts of interest, wealth and taxation transparency, and etc. So many of the positions Trump is firing people from require congressional approval to hold their positions in the first place perhaps firing those same officials once approved should also have some congressional oversight? Trump's abuses begs to question many things. Tragically I believe everyone of all partisan perspectives never want to allow a repeat of Trump yet Republicans continue to bail water for the guy. Changes to the law which will prevent a repeat of Trump will be swift and bipartisan. It is pathetic we have to wait.

May be the November elections will help stem the damage a bit with more Dem seats. 

Yes, I think there is going to be some serious bipartisan autopsies at some point, post-Trump.

Edited March 17, 2018 by StringJunky

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

A lot of laws will be rewritten once Trump is gone. We will see updated regulations for nepotism, conflicts of interest, wealth and taxation transparency, and etc. So many of the positions Trump is firing people from require congressional approval to hold their positions in the first place perhaps firing those same officials once approved should also have some congressional oversight? Trump's abuses begs to question many things. Tragically I believe everyone of all partisan perspectives never want to allow a repeat of Trump yet Republicans continue to bail water for the guy. Changes to the law which will prevent a repeat of Trump will be swift and bipartisan. It is pathetic we have to wait.

I was listening to  a panel discussion on governance and rather obviously, the Trump administration came up. What they argued is that the politicization of oversight committees (DOJ, intelligence agencies military etc.) there will be increasing institutional struggles, as evidenced by the tons of leaks and open contradiction of White House briefings. 

Thus, e.g. intelligence agencies are less likely to collaborate with the house intelligence committee. These damages, they argue, are likely going to be lasting and won't just reset if the administration changes.

[iNow]

The problem with reputation is that it takes a lifetime to build but only a second to destroy. 

For better or for worse, the role the US plays in the rest of the world will be forever diminished as a result of this petty, petulant, patheticly insecure, incapable, and otherwise impotently incompetent man. 

[Ten oz]

11 hours ago, CharonY said:

I was listening to  a panel discussion on governance and rather obviously, the Trump administration came up. What they argued is that the politicization of oversight committees (DOJ, intelligence agencies military etc.) there will be increasing institutional struggles, as evidenced by the tons of leaks and open contradiction of White House briefings. 

Thus, e.g. intelligence agencies are less likely to collaborate with the house intelligence committee. These damages, they argue, are likely going to be lasting and won't just reset if the administration changes.

Govt should behave transparently as possible. I think everyone agreed with that basic concept prior to Trump. Leaks are not bad. Trump's administration is attempting to criminalize them because they make it more difficult to lie. The system as a whole is a good system. The problem is we've elected dishonest people to run the system. The system isn't collasping per a flaw in design but rather from intentional efforts. We see who is holding the sledgehammers. 

[geordief]

11 hours ago, CharonY said:

I was listening to  a panel discussion on governance and rather obviously, the Trump administration came up. What they argued is that the politicization of oversight committees (DOJ, intelligence agencies military etc.) there will be increasing institutional struggles, as evidenced by the tons of leaks and open contradiction of White House briefings. 

Thus, e.g. intelligence agencies are less likely to collaborate with the house intelligence committee. These damages, they argue, are likely going to be lasting and won't just reset if the administration changes.

That was a comment I heard on the BBC  as soon as the Republicans released their partisan report (was it the Nunes memo?).

 

That the intelligence services would release less information if confidentiality could not be expected..

[Ten oz]

FoxNews analysts, RET Lt. Col. Ralph Peters leaves the network citing it is a propaganda machine and blasting the dishonest treatment of the FBI and DOJ among other institutions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2018/03/20/contributor-lt-col-ralph-peters-blasts-fox-news-as-a-propaganda-machine-in-his-parting-email/?utm_term=.ac33e4339e95

Quote

 

Peters wrote an email to colleagues that didn’t manage to stay within the confines of the organization:

“In my view, Fox has degenerated from providing a legitimate and much-needed outlet for conservative voices to a mere propaganda machine for a destructive and ethically ruinous administration. When prime-time hosts — who have never served our country in any capacity — dismiss facts and empirical reality to launch profoundly dishonest assaults on the FBI, the Justice Department, the courts, the intelligence community (in which I served) and, not least, a model public servant and genuine war hero such as [special counsel Robert S. Mueller III] — all the while scaremongering with lurid warnings of ‘deep-state’ machinations — I cannot be part of the same organization, even at a remove. To me, Fox News is now wittingly harming our system of government for profit.”

 

 

[StringJunky]

11 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

FoxNews analysts, RET Lt. Col. Ralph Peters leaves the network citing it is a propaganda machine and blasting the dishonest treatment of the FBI and DOJ among other institutions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2018/03/20/contributor-lt-col-ralph-peters-blasts-fox-news-as-a-propaganda-machine-in-his-parting-email/?utm_term=.ac33e4339e95

 

Even some Republicans have a limit to the cock and bull they can stomach, it seems.

[Raider5678]

On 3/18/2018 at 8:11 AM, Ten oz said:

Govt should behave transparently as possible. I think everyone agreed with that basic concept prior to Trump. Leaks are not bad. Trump's administration is attempting to criminalize them because they make it more difficult to lie.

 

Please reframe from outright lying. 

Here, I'll leak you some information:

Obama tried to arrest Edward Snowden for leaking information. He fled to Russia. It's already criminalized. Trump didn't just magically start looking at leaks as criminal acts.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

Here, I'll leak you some information:

Obama tried to arrest Edward Snowden for leaking information. He fled to Russia. It's already criminalized. Trump didn't just magically start looking at leaks as criminal acts.

Not all leaks involve classified information. A leak, in and of itself, is not necessarily a criminal act. Information that causes embarrassment, for example, is not justification for it to be classified. People may try to keep it quiet, but leaking it does not equate to what Snowden did.

[Ten oz]

26 minutes ago, swansont said:

Not all leaks involve classified information. A leak, in and of itself, is not necessarily a criminal act. Information that causes embarrassment, for example, is not justification for it to be classified. People may try to keep it quiet, but leaking it does not equate to what Snowden did.

Correct. Snowden violated the Espionage Act. Snowden fled the country as he released classified documents fully aware he was breaking the law. To the frivolous point about what Obama tried to do Obama did commute the sentence Chelsea Manning who had committed similar crimes to Snowden. Because Snowden never returned to the U.S. it is unclear what his fate may have been under the Obama administration.