Infinity vs Finite or the perception of Space - Time - Energy - Matter - Information

[Strange]

 

18 minutes ago, 1x0 said:

Exactly. It seems to be finite. So if it has the physical appearance of a finite structure it cannot be infinite. I tried to give an example what infinity could mean...  

No. No. No. 

The observable universe (a sphere about 95 billion light years across) is finite. 

The whole universe could be finite or infinite. 

18 minutes ago, 1x0 said:

If the Universe is finite it has to have a starting point and what else can be that start be than the lowest possible physical state?

Being finite does not imply a starting point. 

And what does “lowest possible physical state” mean?

[swansont]

2 hours ago, 1x0 said:

This still can not explain the lack of infinite energy and matter in the observable universe. Everywhere should be everything. Everything should be a supermassive black hole....

!

Moderator Note

Assertions needs to be supported.

Moved to speculations.

 

[1x0]

6 hours ago, Strange said:

And what does “lowest possible physical state” mean?

Nothing. 

[Strange]

2 hours ago, 1x0 said:

Nothing. 

Then why say it? Are you deliberately wasting our time?

[1x0]

14 minutes ago, Strange said:

Then why say it? Are you deliberately wasting our time?

Because it would be an information about the system we observe and so it seems to be relevant to determine its nature. Without this recognition, the system seems infinite which can be just my perception. 

I have no intention to waste your time. 

As it feels like a waste of time it is better than I just stop this line. 

Thank you Strange for your participation and thoughts. 

[Strange]

8 minutes ago, 1x0 said:

Because it would be an information about the system we observe and so it seems to be relevant to determine its nature.

But you said it was meaningless so how can it be relevant to anything. 

[Area54]

11 hours ago, 1x0 said:

Exactly. It seems to be finite. So if it has the physical appearance of a finite structure it cannot be infinite. I tried to give an example what infinity could mean...  

If the Universe is finite it has to have a starting point and what else can be that start be than the lowest possible physical state?

No. No. No.

The observable universe , the universe we can actually see, is finite. There is no doubt about that. We have every reason to accept that there is more of the universe that is not observable. That portion may be finite or it may be infinite.

You seem to be confusing eternal and infinite. The former usually references time, the latter space.

[1x0]

33 minutes ago, Area54 said:

The observable universe , the universe we can actually see, is finite. There is no doubt about that. We have every reason to accept that there is more of the universe that is not observable. That portion may be finite or it may be infinite.

 

1

 

How can some part of the same realm be infinite and some part of it finite?

If infinity would be a physical possibility should not we observe its nature all over the universe as it should be determined by the fundamental physical laws and applied everywhere?

 

1 hour ago, Strange said:

But you said it was meaningless so how can it be relevant to anything. 

Where did I say this? 

 

 My expression of Nothing above mentioned was not clear enough I am sorry. 

Nothing: A space, time, energy, matter, information-free state at the beginning of the universe. The lowest possible physical state. (speculative conclusion based on Hubble's recognition that space expands)

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by 1x0

[Area54]

16 minutes ago, 1x0 said:

 

How can some part of the same realm be infinite and some part of it finite?

Are there an infinite number of integers? Yes, there are.

Are there a finite number of integers between 14 and 96? Yes there are.

Thus a finite "realm" may be part of an "infinite" realm. This isn't rocket science. I don't do rocket science.

[Strange]

Exactly the analogy I was as going to use. 

[Area54]

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

Exactly the analogy I was as going to use. 

Including a specific selection of the numbers 14 and 96?

[Strange]

3 minutes ago, Area54 said:

Including a specific selection of the numbers 14 and 96?

Weirdly ... 

...

no. 

[1x0]

20 hours ago, Area54 said:

Are there an infinite number of integers? Yes, there are.

 

How you prove this infinite numbers of intergers? If we give the task to our first advanced AI that s/he can use any energy and matter to count the integers possible, there would not be enough energy and matter in a finite universe to execute this task. 

Could the AI continue her task if we know that the universe although is finite, it is bigger and more with every upcoming second (evolving) so there will be always new energy and matter usable to do the task? It could count forever although with the limitations what the accessible energy and matter probably would cause, which would reduce the speed of the counting but could run forever. 

20 hours ago, Area54 said:

Thus a finite "realm" may be part of an "infinite" realm. This isn't rocket science. I don't do rocket science.

Very good. How could an infinite physical entity act as finite at some part and as infinite everywhere else where we it cannot be observed? 

How can everything seem to be finite and the only things that can be infinite is the theoretical recognition of mathematicians and physicians trying to digitalize the Universe? 

On 2018. 02. 11. at 10:55 PM, Strange said:

Being finite does not imply a starting point. 

 

So how could it be finite then? 

On 2018. 02. 11. at 10:55 PM, Strange said:

The whole universe could be finite or infinite. 

On 2018. 02. 11. at 10:36 PM, 1x0 said:

How, when there are no physical signs of infinity?

A second cannot last forever. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by 1x0

[Strange]

2 hours ago, 1x0 said:

How you prove this infinite numbers of intergers? 

Because, whatever largest number you chose, you can always add 1 to it (this is part of the definition). Therefore there is no largest integer (which is the definition of infinite). 

2 hours ago, 1x0 said:

How could an infinite physical entity act as finite at some part and as infinite everywhere else where we it cannot be observed? 

What is wrong with you? Didn’t you read the answer to this?

There are an infinite number of integers but we can still use a finite range of integers. 

2 hours ago, 1x0 said:

So how could it be finite then? 

Why not?

2 hours ago, 1x0 said:

How, when there are no physical signs of infinity?

This is getting tedious. If you don’t understand the previous answer to your questions, don’t just ask the same thing again. Instead you need to explain why you don’t understand. Otherwise you will just get the same answer. 

[Area54]

@1x0 What Strange said. It is bewildering to me why you don't get it, but I am happy to persist in trying to help you understand. Consider again your question, why are there no physical signs of infinity? The universe is larger than what we can observe. Light from the unobservable portion cannot reach us, since space there is expanding, relative to us, at a speed greater than that of light. We do not know whether this unobservable portion is finite or infinite. Which part of this explanation, badly worded as it is, do you not understand?

And if you want a physical sign of infinity, how about this one?    ∞     

 

 

[1x0]

44 minutes ago, Strange said:

What is wrong with you? Didn’t you read the answer to this?

 

Yes I did, and I gave a thought experiment on it.

44 minutes ago, Strange said:

There are an infinite number of integers but we can still use a finite range of integers. 

3 hours ago, 1x0 said:

It is an informational theory created by us. What is the physical evidence for infinity and why the thought experiment is not acceptable?

44 minutes ago, Strange said:

Why not?

3 hours ago, 1x0 said:

Because if it has a starting point there is a physical reference point since universe could evolve. In the physical reality, there is physical limitation to infinite evolution (e.g. photons does not have infinite velocity, no infinite amount of energy or matter, no infinitely manipulatable time, no signs of absolute infinite intelligences etc ...)

44 minutes ago, Strange said:

This is getting tedious. If you don’t understand the previous answer to your questions, don’t just ask the same thing again. Instead you need to explain why you don’t understand. Otherwise you will just get the same answer. 

I understand the previous answer, I responded with a thought experiment. You are right it is tedious, and I can not force you to recognize the thought experiments, so it is better if we just leave this question to rest a bit until I gain more insight and I can give better questions or better examples to think about. 

26 minutes ago, Area54 said:

Which part of this explanation, badly worded as it is, do you not understand?

How can be that if infinity is a nature of our universe, it is NOT applied everywhere and on everything and so appear finite? It is paradoxical for me (maybe the limitations of my brain) so I would be very happy for anything more than a number theory created by our subjective axiomatization. 

 

3 hours ago, 1x0 said:

How you prove this infinite numbers of intergers? If we give the task to our first advanced AI that s/he can use any energy and matter to count the integers possible, there would not be enough energy and matter in a finite universe to execute this task. 

Thoughts on this?

26 minutes ago, Area54 said:

It is bewildering to me why you don't get it, but I am happy to persist in trying to help you understand.

Thank You! I really appreciate it. 

26 minutes ago, Area54 said:

The universe is larger than what we can observe. Light from the unobservable portion cannot reach us, since space there is expanding, relative to us, at a speed greater than that of light. We do not know whether this unobservable portion is finite or infinite.

This is clear but does not imply infinity. From the observed part, we should be able to make the conclusion to the nature of the unobservable portions as well, because infinity(or finite) should be universal if it is true so should be applied and observable in the known universe as well be true in the unobservable. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by 1x0

[Strange]

10 minutes ago, 1x0 said:

Yes I did, and I gave a thought experiment on it.

What thought experiment? The nonsense about trying to count to infinity? Infinity is not a number so I just ignored that as irrelevant nonsense.

11 minutes ago, 1x0 said:

It is an informational theory created by us.

So what. It still demonstrates that you can have a finite subset of an infinite series. If that is not what you were asking, you need to ask a different question.

12 minutes ago, 1x0 said:

What is the physical evidence for infinity and why the thought experiment is not acceptable?

There is no physical evidence for an infinite universe. The fact that it appears to be flat, is consistent with being infinite (which is often as good as it gets in science).

Your "thought experiment" doesn't appear to have any relevance.

14 minutes ago, 1x0 said:

How can be that if infinity is a nature of our universe, it is NOT applied everywhere and on everything and so appear finite?

What does it mean for it to be "applied everywhere"?

Infinite just means it has no limit. How would "no limit" be applied everywhere?

Is the fact that the integers are infinite "applied to 5"?

15 minutes ago, 1x0 said:

If we give the task to our first advanced AI that s/he can use any energy and matter to count the integers possible, there would not be enough energy and matter in a finite universe to execute this task. 

This is close to the definition of infinity: however much time you have, you can never count all the integers. There is always one more.

[1x0]

5 minutes ago, Strange said:

What thought experiment? The nonsense about trying to count to infinity? Infinity is not a number so I just ignored that as irrelevant nonsense.

So what. It still demonstrates that you can have a finite subset of an infinite series. If that is not what you were asking, you need to ask a different question.

There is no physical evidence for an infinite universe. The fact that it appears to be flat, is consistent with being infinite (which is often as good as it gets in science).

Your "thought experiment" doesn't appear to have any relevance.

What does it mean for it to be "applied everywhere"?

Infinite just means it has no limit. How would "no limit" be applied everywhere?

Is the fact that the integers are infinite "applied to 5"?

This is close to the definition of infinity: however much time you have, you can never count all the integers. There is always one more.

Ok. 

5 minutes ago, Strange said:

32 minutes ago, Area54 said:

And if you want a physical sign of infinity, how about this one?    ∞     

 

 

It seems to me quite limited in space-time to my computer screen  

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by 1x0

[Area54]

4 minutes ago, 1x0 said:

34 minutes ago, Area54 said:

And if you want a physical sign of infinity, how about this one?    ∞     

 

 

It seems to me quite limited in space-time to my computer screen  

 

No. It's not limited. You just keep going round the figure-8 for ever. That is an infinitely long way.

[1x0]

40 minutes ago, Area54 said:

No. It's not limited. You just keep going round the figure-8 for ever. That is an infinitely long way.

That journey would have a starting point when I first saw the sign on the screen and start my rounds from a single point on the path, so I could measure the time since when I am going around and so the exact length of my journey around the symbol. This makes that I can potentially* circulate infinitely long but with an exact point of space and time at any observation (if anyone would be interested since when I am circulating and how far I have reached).

The potential to going around infinitely would not make the journey itself infinite. 

 

*possible but not yet happened. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by 1x0

[Strange]

37 minutes ago, 1x0 said:

The potential to going around infinitely would not make the journey itself infinite.

Of course it would. If you go round endlessly (you can always make one more loop) then that is an infinite journey. (You seem very confused about what infinite means.)

Note that something which is infinite can have a beginning (or even an end - but not both).

The sequence of natural numbers is infinite but starts at zero. 

If the universe was created (something for which there is no evidence) then it could still last for an infinite time.

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Strange

[koti]

There are also differnt kinds and sizes of infinities. The infinity of natutral numbers starting at zero is much different that the infinite amount of fractions between the numbers 4 and 5.

[ag400002]

Perhaps the physics of an infinite state are embraced by the temporal dimension of a never ending expanding universe and multiverse and so the physics of a finite state would be embraced within the temporal dimension of any positionally bounded space.
Outside of the physics of spacetime, perhaps, very generally,the future would be infinite and the past would be finite and the present would be the transitional point

[1x0]

15 minutes ago, ag400002 said:

Outside of the physics of spacetime, perhaps, very generally,the future would be infinite and the past would be finite and the present would be the transitional point

There cannot be something outside physics....i.e everything has some kind of physical attribute... 

Infinity seems to be a potential rather then reality....

Interestingly this potential seems to be real and so part of reality even it is nothing more than information about its Nature. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by 1x0

[Silvestru]

2 hours ago, Strange said:

Note that something which is infinite can have a beginning (or even an end - but not both).

Can you please give an example of an infinity that has an end from a temporal perspective?

Do you mean that if I run from 1:00 PM to 1:01 PM there are an infinity of "numbers" between 0 and 1? because that wouldn't really be a temporal infinity but a mathematical one.(if that makes sense)

Quote

The defining property of a mathematical infinity is not that it does not have an end. Rather it is that the elements of the infinite collection can be put in a bijection (one-to-one correspondence) with a proper subset of the collection (a subset missing some of the original collection’s elements).

 

So I am asking about a non mathematical example.