Liberal Views Explained

[iNow]

Grabbed this from a FB friend. Seems like a good clarification, but is probably too long to read for those who need to read it most. Enjoy. 

//“I would like all of my right wing, conservative friends and family members to read the following. It explains my beliefs in a nutshell. I borrowed this from my buddy, who borrowed this from another friend.This explains my views in an even tempered, logical way.

Let's break it down, shall we? Because quite frankly, I'm getting a little tired of being told what I believe and what I stand for. Spoiler alert: Not every Liberal is the same, though the majority of Liberals I know think along roughly these same lines:

“1. I believe a country should take care of its weakest members. A country cannot call itself civilized when its children, disabled, sick, and elderly are neglected. Period.

2. I believe healthcare is a right, not a privilege. Somehow that's interpreted as "I believe Obamacare is the end-all, be-all." This is not the case. I'm fully aware that the ACA has problems, that a national healthcare system would require everyone to chip in, and that it's impossible to create one that is devoid of flaws, but I have yet to hear an argument against it that makes "let people die because they can't afford healthcare" a better alternative. I believe healthcare should be far cheaper than it is, and that everyone should have access to it. And no, I'm not opposed to paying higher taxes in the name of making that happen.

3. I believe education should be affordable and accessible to everyone. It doesn't necessarily have to be free (though it works in other countries so I'm mystified as to why it can't work in the US), but at the end of the day, there is no excuse for students graduating college saddled with five- or six-figure debt.

4. I don't believe your money should be taken from you and given to people who don't want to work. I have literally never encountered anyone who believes this. Ever. I just have a massive moral problem with a society where a handful of people can possess the majority of the wealth while there are people literally starving to death, freezing to death, or dying because they can't afford to go to the doctor. Fair wages, lower housing costs, universal healthcare, affordable education, and the wealthy actually paying their share would go a long way toward alleviating this. Somehow believing that makes me a communist.

5. I don't throw around "I'm willing to pay higher taxes" lightly. I'm retired and on a fixed income, but I still pay taxes. If I'm suggesting something that involves paying more, well, it's because I'm fine with paying my share as long as it's actually going to something besides lining corporate pockets or bombing other countries while Americans die without healthcare.

6. I believe companies should be required to pay their employees a decent, livable wage. Somehow this is always interpreted as me wanting burger flippers to be able to afford a penthouse apartment and a Mercedes. What it actually means is that no one should have to work three full-time jobs just to keep their head above water. Restaurant servers should not have to rely on tips, multibillion dollar companies should not have employees on food stamps, workers shouldn't have to work themselves into the ground just to barely make ends meet, and minimum wage should be enough for someone to work 40 hours and live.

7. I am not anti-Christian. I have no desire to stop Christians from being Christians, to close churches, to ban the Bible, to forbid prayer in school, etc. (BTW, prayer in school is NOT illegal; *compulsory* prayer in school is - and should be - illegal). All I ask is that Christians recognize *my* right to live according to *my* beliefs. When I get pissed off that a politician is trying to legislate Scripture into law, I'm not "offended by Christianity" -- I'm offended that you're trying to force me to live by your religion's rules. You know how you get really upset at the thought of Muslims imposing Sharia law on you? That's how I feel about Christians trying to impose biblical law on me. Be a Christian. Do your thing. Just don't force it on me or mine.

8. I don't believe LGBT people should have more rights than you. I just believe they should have the *same* rights as you.

9. I don't believe illegal immigrants should come to America and have the world at their feet, especially since THIS ISN'T WHAT THEY DO (spoiler: undocumented immigrants are ineligible for all those programs they're supposed to be abusing, and if they're "stealing" your job it's because your employer is hiring illegally). I'm not opposed to deporting people who are here illegally, but I believe there are far more humane ways to handle undocumented immigration than our current practices (i.e., detaining children, splitting up families, ending DACA, etc).

10. I don't believe the government should regulate everything, but since greed is such a driving force in our country, we NEED regulations to prevent cut corners, environmental destruction, tainted food/water, unsafe materials in consumable goods or medical equipment, etc. It's not that I want the government's hands in everything -- I just don't trust people trying to make money to ensure that their products/practices/etc. are actually SAFE. Is the government devoid of shadiness? Of course not. But with those regulations in place, consumers have recourse if they're harmed and companies are liable for medical bills, environmental cleanup, etc. Just kind of seems like common sense when the alternative to government regulation is letting companies bring their bottom line into the equation.

11. I believe our current administration is fascist. Not because I dislike them or because I can’t get over an election, but because I've spent too many years reading and learning about the Third Reich to miss the similarities. Not because any administration I dislike must be Nazis, but because things are actually mirroring authoritarian and fascist regimes of the past.

12. I believe the systemic racism and misogyny in our society is much worse than many people think, and desperately needs to be addressed. Which means those with privilege -- white, straight, male, economic, etc. -- need to start listening, even if you don't like what you're hearing, so we can start dismantling everything that's causing people to be marginalized.

13. I am not interested in coming after your blessed guns, nor is anyone serving in government. What I am interested in is sensible policies, including background checks, that just MIGHT save one person’s, perhaps a toddler’s, life by the hand of someone who should not have a gun. (Got another opinion? Put it on your page, not mine).

14. I believe in so-called political correctness. I prefer to think it’s social politeness. If I call you Chuck and you say you prefer to be called Charles I’ll call you Charles. It’s the polite thing to do. Not because everyone is a delicate snowflake, but because as Maya Angelou put it, when we know better, we do better. When someone tells you that a term or phrase is more accurate/less hurtful than the one you're using, you now know better. So why not do better? How does it hurt you to NOT hurt another person?

15. I believe in funding sustainable energy, including offering education to people currently working in coal or oil so they can change jobs. There are too many sustainable options available for us to continue with coal and oil. Sorry, billionaires. Maybe try investing in something else.

16. I believe that women should not be treated as a separate class of human. They should be paid the same as men who do the same work, should have the same rights as men and should be free from abuse. Why on earth shouldn’t they be?

I think that about covers it. Bottom line is that I'm a liberal because I think we should take care of each other. That doesn't mean you should work 80 hours a week so your lazy neighbor can get all your money. It just means I don't believe there is any scenario in which preventable suffering is an acceptable outcome as long as money is saved.”

[MigL]

Well what do you know...
I guess I'm a liberal.

But, you know, when I list all the good conservative ideals, I value them also.

What then, does that make me ?
I like my politics 'a la carte' ?

( liberal/conservative not to be confused with democrat/republican )

Edited February 1, 2018 by MigL

[Ten oz]

Numbers 11 and 12 are the primary reasons I support Democrats. When I first got into politics, first started paying attention and listening to the sales pitches, I considered myself a Republican. I accepted the notion the gay people  didn't need to marry in that marriage was a religious thing. I felt legal recognition of partnership was fine. While education is important  I felt people had plenty of choices and no one is forced to take on debt to get an education. I believed that what a livable wage was varied greatly by locality and it should be up to cities and states to determine and not the federal govt. I believed consumers had the purchasing power to endorse alternative energy by purchasing solar, more efficient devices, and etc. I was not to the left on many issues at all. Then I moved from San Francisco, CA to Boise ID and quickly realized that Racism and a deep sense of privilege was at root in the Republican base and platform. 

In San Francisco there weren't a lot of Republicans. The few I dealt with were always very well read and care when presenting their views; nuanced positions that centered around law and the importance of freedom/choice. In Boise were liberals didn't exist I encountered Republicans all day ever day who made no secret  their positions centered around the idea that only white Christians (to include Mormons) were "Real Americans" and that only Real Americans should have a say in society. While living in Boise it was common for people to use the N-word in casual conversation. Normal hear people use gay slurs and joke about HIV/AIDS. I realized the careful nuanced positions I heard Republicans in San Francisco argue were just facades. The base of the Republican party are bigots who believe all minorities, LGBT, and women  should exist is subservient positions in society to white christian males. I literally heard as much stated numerous times while living in Boise. Moreover the trend repeated as I have lived different places. When I lived in San Diego Republicans were careful and had nuanced positions. When I was in rural VA it was back to commonly hearing racial slurs. Now I am in Washington DC. 

I do not agree with the entire Democratic platform. I vote for Democrats because I find them to be honest and it is easy to work with honest people.. As I have traveled the country I found Democrats to hold the same talking points and positions everywhere. Behind closed doors and among themselves their nature doesn't shift. I believe Republicans to be totally dishonest. The party launders racism into the mainstream in trade for a voting base that will turn a blind eye to corruption. I am 100% opposed to their vision for America. The growth of social media and online forum has really driven this point home. Read what's said by anonymous liberals & conservatives  then read what is said among those who aren't anonymous. The nature of conservative positions shift to very dark places when anonymous. Liberal positions remain identical. I Republicans simply aren't sincere .

[waitforufo]

iNow, why is it that you can't understand that our goals can be the same, though our solutions are different?  I agree with almost all of what you have with the exception of parts of 9, 10 but ifacceptable risks aren't allowed you are just keeps people in poverty, and 11 is simpl delusional.  

Perhaps you should consider economic prosperity as a solution?

[dimreepr]

9 hours ago, MigL said:

Well what do you know...
I guess I'm a liberal.

But, you know, when I list all the good conservative ideals, I value them also.

What then, does that make me ?
I like my politics 'a la carte' ?

( liberal/conservative not to be confused with democrat/republican )

The best solutions are found with a combination of both.

34 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

iNow, why is it that you can't understand that our goals can be the same, though our solutions are different?  I agree with almost all of what you have with the exception of parts of 9, 10 but ifacceptable risks aren't allowed you are just keeps people in poverty, and 11 is simpl delusional.  

Perhaps you should consider economic prosperity as a solution?

4

There are better solutions to that than the current model, there's simply no reason for such an enormous  wealth gap

[MigL]

I also notice that the list isn't prioritized.

Sometimes the biggest decision is the priority of these ideals/beliefs. For example, a country should take care of its weakest members ( no.1 ). Obviously the best way to do that is to make sure everyone has a job and is a productive member of society. But companies should also pay their employees a fair living wage ( no.6 ), so what do you do when another country has lower wages and your industries cannot compete on a world market ?
Your choice is then, lose jobs ( as we've been doing since the 60s ) or introduce regulations and trade barriers.

You clearly cannot have both and, as they say, 'the devil's in the details', and if you don't get the fine tuning right you make more problems than you solve.
Liberals and conservatives ( NOT democrats and republicans ) sometimes have a difference of opinion as to the best 'split' in the above situation.
Does that make either of them wrong ?

Edit: Dimreepr just addressed this, also.

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by MigL

[Ten oz]

44 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

Perhaps you should consider economic prosperity as a solution?

You are saying economic prosperity as though it is a Universal term. In reality what is good for some isn't good for all. Moreover our goals simply are not the same and that is okay. People are free to want different things. 

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

The best solutions are found with a combination of both.

This is an over used anecdote. Somethings don't have workable combination. There isn't a sensible middle ground with "Jews will not replace us". Something people simply need to stand for or against 100% without concessions. Jim Crow was a combination solution and it was wrong. What is the combination solution, the middle ground, for capital punishment? Some issue are just that black or white; alive or dead. 

[dimreepr]

10 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

This is an over used anecdote. Somethings don't have workable combination. There isn't a sensible middle ground with "Jews will not replace us". Something people simply need to stand for or against 100% without concessions. Jim Crow was a combination solution and it was wrong. What is the combination solution, the middle ground, for capital punishment? Some issue are just that black or white; alive or dead. 

3

Well yes, I will concede that not all solutions based on that are "best", but I was responding to MgiL so, Liberal and Conservative not Liberal and fascist/racist.

[Raider5678]

10 hours ago, iNow said:

First post

 

Apparently, I'm a liberal like MigL

 

However, for these same reasons you're a liberal, I'm neither.

Neither liberal nor conservative has all the solutions to the problems you've addressed.

I've started telling others my opinion is this:

 

Liberal policies are a Phillips screwdriver and conservative ones are a flat head one. (Let's not debate which screwdriver is better. That was not the point of the analogy)

They can both fix things they're good at, but they can't fix everything.

Which is the main problem with Republican/Democrats. They're both virtually entirely on one side, liberal or conservative.

 

Ultimately, however, as MigL pointed out, it's how we believe these problems are best solved that makes the largest difference between the two ideologies. 

 

 

 

Also, quick edit, you pointed out that this is an overused anecdote.

I disagree.

You don't use half Phillips and half a flat head on a screw.

You use one or the other.

However, it depends on the screw.

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Raider5678

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

What is the combination solution, the middle ground, for capital punishment?

Life imprisonment seems the obvious choice, it serves as revenge/justice and it allows for mistakes to be rectified.

4 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Liberal policies are a Phillips screwdriver and conservative ones are a flat head one. (Let's not debate which screwdriver is better. That was not the point of the analogy)

 

You can have both on a screw...

[Raider5678]

4 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

You can have both on a screw...

 

Then I'll switch out flathead screw with a wrench to prevent confusion.

[dimreepr]

Just now, Raider5678 said:

Then I'll switch out flathead screw with a wrench to prevent confusion.

There is no confusion, your analogy works if a screw can accommodate both, BTW you can have both in this version too... 

[Raider5678]

Just now, dimreepr said:

There is no confusion, your analogy works if a screw can accommodate both, BTW you can have both in this version too... 

Alright.

Even then though, typically a flat head screwdriver or a Phillips head screwdriver works better on screws that can use both. I've yet to come across one that works equally well enough that I don't care which screwdriver I'm using to work on it.

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Raider5678 said:

Alright.

Even then though, typically a flat head screwdriver or a Phillips head screwdriver works better on screws that can use both. I've yet to come across one that works equally well enough that I don't care which screwdriver I'm using to work on it.

 

That's why there's two, everyone is either goofy or regular.

[EdEarl]

I am liberal, but changed from a conservative. Here is my reason. 

I live in the US which purports to believe everyone is born with equal rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Moreover, we are all children of Earth, along with all the animals. If we act like animals, then we ignore our fellow man and take food off their plate if we are hungry, chase them from a hunting territory, and let them starve if they cannot fight hard enough for to live. Conservatives seem to follow this reasoning; it was my reasoning when I thought I was conservative.

However, we produce enough food on Earth to feed everyone. There is no reason anyone should be starving. We make fences and destroy habitats of animals and thereby have been destroying the natural world around us. Our release of CO2 and methane threaten to cause a mass extinction from which no man can survive. Conservatives in my country, seem hell bent to commit suicide, by denying climate change, spoiling natural habitats, and poisoning the water. Conservatives have been opposed to raising the minimum wage, which in my opinion destroys the economy. My reasoning is to consider the lowest possible wage $0. If the masses have no money to spend, the economy is toast. Factories will close. People will suffer. Thus, I am liberal.

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

I am liberal, but changed from a conservative. Here is my reason. 

I live in the US which purports to believe everyone is born with equal rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Moreover, we are all children of Earth, along with all the animals. If we act like animals, then we ignore our fellow man and take food off their plate if we are hungry, chase them from a hunting territory, and let them starve if they cannot fight hard enough for to live. Conservatives seem to follow this reasoning; it was my reasoning when I thought I was conservative.

However, we produce enough food on Earth to feed everyone. There is no reason anyone should be starving. We make fences and destroy habitats of animals and thereby have been destroying the natural world around us. Our release of CO2 and methane threaten to cause a mass extinction from which no man can survive. Conservatives in my country, seem hell bent to commit suicide, by denying climate change, spoiling natural habitats, and poisoning the water. Conservatives have been opposed to raising the minimum wage, which in my opinion destroys the economy. My reasoning is to consider the lowest possible wage $0. If the masses have no money to spend, the economy is toast. Factories will close. People will suffer. Thus, I am liberal.

2

I'm goofy too...

[Raider5678]

16 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

My reasoning is to consider the lowest possible wage $0. If the masses have no money to spend, the economy is toast. Factories will close. People will suffer. Thus, I am liberal.

 

That's a bit extreme don't you think?

 

[DrP]

7 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

That's a bit extreme don't you think?

 

He said it was extreme  -  he was looking at the extreme case... 'the lowest possible' - which is the extreme case.

PS  -  just to add...  'Me too'.  I was a conservative (in the UK) and quite right wing in my thinking... quite racist at times (learnt/taught behaviour). I have been slipping further and further left wing in my politics as I have got older. It makes sense and is the more civilised caring way forward rather than the 'I'm all right Jack, screw every one else' attitude of the right. The continued propaganda that demonises foreigners etc is deplorable. We all live on this planet together and should work together rather than building walls and isolating ourselves further from the rest of the world.  - my 2 Escudos.

[Raider5678]

8 minutes ago, DrP said:

He said it was extreme  -  he was looking at the extreme case... 'the lowest possible' - which is the extreme case.

I understand this but he used it as reasoning to be a liberal.

As far as I know, conservatives weren't interested in bring the minimum wage to zero, so why would it influence his decision to be a liberal?

It'd be like a conservative saying "I'm a conservative because I imagine a ridiculous minimum wage: $30 an hour. I know it's ridiculous, but businesses wouldn't be able to pay it and there'd be no economy. So I'm a conservative."

It's not a valid point in my opinion. The points iNow posted were all pretty much logical, didn't make many assumptions, and weren't hypothetical.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Raider5678

[DrP]

Just now, Raider5678 said:

I understand this but he used it as reasoning to be a liberal.

You'll have to ask him what he was getting at precisely. Maybe it wasn't the best example... but he was using an extreme.  Where do you draw the line with a minimum wage? 1 cent? 50?  $3.00?   In Norway it is WAY over $30.00 last time I checked...  although the cost of living is higher (and standard) than in both of our countries.  The point is you need to reward people for their work so that they can at least live a life comparative to other workers...  it has been proven, in other countries, that a minimum wage improve the lives of those that are on it....   I won't go into it...  I'm not even a layman when it comes to politics really.  I'm off to pick up my car.  Have a good weekend. Back next week.

 

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Life imprisonment seems the obvious choice, it serves as revenge/justice and it allows for mistakes to be rectified.

That isn't the middle though. Everyone, Liberals included, agrees with that. Middle ground would be between that are killing the person. 

[iNow]

11 hours ago, MigL said:

What then, does that make me ?

A human being, with diverse views who cannot be described or lazily dismissed by hollow, simplistic, one-dimensional labels. You know, just like all of the rest of us!

[dimreepr]

30 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

That isn't the middle though. Everyone, Liberals included, agrees with that. Middle ground would be between that are killing the person. 

1

You're going to have to elaborate...

[iNow]

3 hours ago, waitforufo said:

iNow, why is it that you can't understand that our goals can be the same, though our solutions are different?

Your question confuses me, since I both can and do understand that.

3 hours ago, waitforufo said:

Perhaps you should consider economic prosperity as a solution?

I do, which is a very large part of the reason I keep voting for those who do things which actually improve the economy and well-being of me and my neighbors (as opposed to those who are all hat and no cowboy offering specious talking points that fail when implemented).

[Ten oz]

16 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

You're going to have to elaborate...

Pro capital punishment advocates want people executed. Those opposed want life in prison with parole. Middle Ground or a combination of those two positions would have to be greater than life in prison without parole but less than execution; no such solution exists. One side or the other simply must get it there way.