Liberal Views Explained

[MigL]

No sorry if I wasn't very clear iNow, I wasn't implying you were being hypocritical.
I have said that your OP ( and even Raider's )is an excellent way for people to recognize where they can work together to achieve these ideals.
Those are the kind of things I want to discuss.
Sure, the government can shift away from coal mining, but it can't just forget about the people in west Virginia, who now have no viable economy, have a meth addiction epidemic, think their government doesn't give a sh*t about them, and in desperation, turn to an idiot like D Trump.
Or the people of Detroit, where once good paying automotive industry jobs have gone overseas.
And all the other places that think their government has forgotten about them ?

These are the people who mistakenly think D Trump is their salvation.

I know what D Trump is doing for them; kicking them while they're down.
What do you propose to restore their faith in Government?
To let them know they have a voice in their government, and keep them from repeating their mistake in the next election ?

 

This has nothing to do with votes Ten oz.
The ideals posted by iNow were more in line with B Sanders policies/platform than H Clinton's policies/platform.
Whether they would have, or could have been implemented is a totally different story.,

[Ten oz]

6 minutes ago, MigL said:

This has nothing to do with votes Ten oz.
The ideals posted by iNow were more in line with B Sanders policies/platform than H Clinton's policies/platform.
Whether they would have, or could have been implemented is a totally different story.,

More in line; which point was Clinton's campaign not in line with? 

[John Cuthber]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

I think you’re conflating a reduction in revenues with a spending program.

I think that was MigL, rather than me.

 

59 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Yep, Trump is both spending more and reducing revenue.

What is he spending on?

[Phi for All]

I think we need to recognize that single mindsets should never dominate. Modern societies work best when the liberal thinkers and conservative thinkers design ways together for society as a whole to progress in beneficial directions with a reasonable amount of risk. If you want to get where you're going safely, you need both the gas pedal and the brake pedal, you can't just keep your foot on one or the other. 

[Ten oz]

12 minutes ago, MigL said:

Sure, the government can shift away from coal mining, but it can't just forget about the people in west Virginia, who now have no viable economy, have a meth addiction epidemic, think their government doesn't give a sh*t about them, and in desperation, turn to an idiot like D Trump.
Or the people of Detroit, where once good paying automotive industry jobs have gone overseas.
And all the other places that think their government has forgotten about them ?

These are the people who mistakenly think D Trump is their salvation.

I know what D Trump is doing for them; kicking them while they're down.
What do you propose to restore their faith in Government?
To let them know they have a voice in their government, and keep them from repeating their mistake in the next election ?

West Virginia didn't turn to Trump. West VA voted for Romney, McCain, and Bush overwhelming as well. West VA has been very red for a couple decades now. West VA GDP is over 55 billion per year. The Coal industry contributes 3 billion of that or 5%. 740,000 people are employed in West VA and Coal accounts for 30,000 people or 4%. Coal matters but how much is grossly exaggerated. 

We do not restore faith in Govt by selling them a fake bill of goods or lying to ourselves about why people in West VA vote the way they do. If anything I believe Democrats have spoke to and about the coal industry too much. Democrats need to do a better job speaking to the Healthcare and Advance Tech industries in West VA because each of those industries employ more West Virginians than does the coal mining industry. The problem in West VA is that they have been pigeonholed in political conversations as the land of Coal miners and no one speaks the overwhelming majority of West Virginians that have no association to coal mining. Imagine if whenever any politician spoke about Canada all they ever spoke about was Maple as if Canada had nothing else. 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Or the people of Detroit, where once good paying automotive industry jobs have gone overseas.
And all the other places that think their government has forgotten about them ?

(...)
What do you propose to restore their faith in Government?
To let them know they have a voice in their government, and keep them from repeating their mistake in the next election ?

Maybe they could start by spending a few tens of millions of dollars to fix the water pipes in Flint instead of the tens of billions with a B dollars they seem eager to spend on an ignorant wall of hate. 

[MigL]

Maple what, Ten oz?

Toronto Maple Leafs, the hockey team ?
Or Maple syrup ?

That's basically all we have left.

You Americans destroyed our aerospace industry.
First, the legendary Arrow, with your promise of Bomarc missiles.
And now Bombardier passenger jets thanks to Boeing.
Thank goodness we still have the most fresh water in the world.  

 

it is our job ( well not mine, I'm not American ) to convince them iNow.
( wow, this thred moves too fast; can't keep up )

Edited February 4, 2018 by MigL

[iNow]

51 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

I think that was MigL, rather than me.

Exactly, which is why I quoted him when typing that reply 

[John Cuthber]

Just now, iNow said:

Exactly, which is why I quoted him when typing that reply 

Doh!

 

[Ten oz]

35 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

What is he spending on?

DOD got a 15 Billion dollar boost back in may and then their overall budget increased by another 100 billion back in November. Custom Board Protect spending is up. The Secret Service spent their whole years budget in months protecting Trump and his family and Congress had to allocate more money. Additionally changes to the ACA, emergency funding for disasters without offsets (demanded by Republicans in previous year), and other miscellaneous mismanagement issues. 

Moving forward Trump wants money for his wall, even more money for Custom Boarder protection, hundreds of billions for an infrastructure bill, and has promised money to combat the Opioid crisis. While it is normal for Presidents to propose spending for they agendas the spending normally comes with a means to afford it. With Trump he just demands the money.

 

[iNow]

Also, golf trips and secret service hotel room bookings at Trump hotels 

[swansont]

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Yep, Trump is both spending more and reducing revenue.

!

Moderator Note

(Quoting Ten Oz but not limiting the comment to Ten Oz)

Discussion of Trump seems out of place in a thread on liberal views 

 

[Ten oz]

Detroit has made incredible gains over the years. It is just a used up talking point in 2018 to complain about Detroit. It isn't perfect but neither is any number of cities. 

 

[Raider5678]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

West Virginia didn't turn to Trump. West VA voted for Romney, McCain, and Bush overwhelming as well. West VA has been very red for a couple decades now. West VA GDP is over 55 billion per year. The Coal industry contributes 3 billion of that or 5%. 740,000 people are employed in West VA and Coal accounts for 30,000 people or 4%. Coal matters but how much is grossly exaggerated. 

 

Previously 50,000 jobs 5 years ago.

And if you ignore just 3 counties that are large cities, that accounted for 21.9% of the entire states jobs.

Maybe the cities are doing well, but the rural counties, which is every single county except for 3, might as well have just gone through another great depression.

But hey. It's not the majority, right?

No. It was not grossly exaggerated.

 

Edit(wanted to add)

I've been to West Virginia several times with the sole purpose of helping people out. (http://www.worldvisionusprograms.org/appalachia.php) I've been on that trip almost 10 times.

 

And when you see thousands of people who can't afford even to fix their roof, it becomes a lot more personal.

People are more than just numbers. When you can just discard even just 30,000 living, breathing, suffering people, you've reduced them to numbers.

The trip I went on, was the sole purpose of donating labor to help repair peoples homes to at least a substandard level.

Almost 100,000 people a year. 

The poverty level there isn't just limited to coal miners when 21% of rural jobs disappear in less than 2 decades.  A lot of people are affected.

Also, coal jobs also accounted for 39.4% of rural income. 

 

Now I don't think Donald Trump is helping them, but as MigL pointed out. They feel abandoned. They aren't complaining about Democrats because they like Republicans. They're complaining about Democrats because too many of them a Democrat in office means massive economic downfall could happen at any moment. They feel forgotten and listing them off as "how much it matters is grossly exaggerated" doesn't help them in feeling like they're forgotten. 

I've talked to many families. They often ask how you voted. Don't ask why. And I've only ever heard one thing. "Democrats destroyed the countries economy."

In truth, they just got hit especially hard by recessions. But try convincing them of that when at the same moment you're saying about how little the coal jobs matter. 

Like I've said. I've personally been there. I've been going there every year since I was 5. Their economy relied much more heavily on coal then you seem to think. We're not "lying to ourselves". It's the truth. 

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Raider5678

[John Cuthber]

2 minutes ago, swansont said:

!

Moderator Note

(Quoting Ten Oz but not limiting the comment to Ten Oz)

Discussion of Trump seems out of place in a thread on liberal views 

 

Ordinarily, I'd agree with you but, in principle, job creations schemes like The Wall are actually Liberal- at least in terms of govt spending. Ditto the disaster fund.
Not sure about the golf.

[Ten oz]

24 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Previously 50,000 jobs 5 years ago.

And if you ignore just 3 counties that are large cities, that accounted for 21.9% of the entire states jobs.

Maybe the cities are doing well, but the rural counties, which is every single county except for 3, might as well have just gone through another great depression.

But hey. It's not the majority right?

I didn't imply West VA should be ignored but rather there is more in West VA than to give attention Coal miners. Why not speak to groups which employee more individual people and focus on there growth. 

California use to have a lot of gold miners once upon a time but today they have technology, entertainment, farming, and etc. Times change. You are in PA. There is a lot more in PA than steel workers there now days. PA has a terrific healthcare and education industry. Focusing on the future is better than focusing on the past.

29 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

And when you see thousands of people who can't afford even to fix their roof, it becomes a lot more personal.

People are more than just numbers. When you can just discard even just 30,000 living, breathing, suffering people, you've reduced them to numbers.

The trip I went on, was the sole purpose of donating labor to help repair peoples homes to at least a substandard level.

Almost 100,000 people a year. 

The poverty level there isn't just limited to coal miners when 21% of rural jobs disappear in less than 2 decades.  A lot of people are affected.

Also, coal jobs also accounted for 39.4% of rural income. 

The coal mining industry in West VA has been on the decline for nearly 80yrs running and not just the last 20yrs. West VA has other industries. For West VA to improve its overall economy they need to expand those industries which are going and create new ones.

 

[iNow]

Coal is dying bc of cheap natural gas and renewables, plus for some the science of a warming climate, not because of Democrats or “liberals.”

This common refrain that the destruction of coal jobs is bc of Democrats and “liberals” speaks to the broader issue of labels being lazy, divisive, laughably misguided, and too often used to scapegoat; to avoid discussing facts and moving programs forward based on merits. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by iNow

[Raider5678]

17 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I didn't imply West VA should be ignored but rather there is more in West VA than to give attention Coal miners. Why not speak to groups which employee more individual people and focus on there growth. 

California use to have a lot of gold miners once upon a time but today they have technology, entertainment, farming, and etc. Times change. You are in PA. There is a lot more in PA than steel workers there now days. PA has a terrific healthcare and education industry. Focusing on the future is better than focusing on the past.

The coal mining industry in West VA has been on the decline for nearly 80yrs running and not just the last 20yrs. West VA has other industries. For West VA to improve its overall economy they need to expand those industries which are going and create new ones.

5

And I realize that the decline in jobs is not the Democrats or Liberals fault.

I stated that in my post.

 

However, I was also pointing out Coal employed 21% of all rural jobs, 40% of rural GDP. Unless you disagree with statistics, coal mattered. Even if it's been in decline for 80 years, it was still incredibly valuable to the economy less then 20 years ago.

13 minutes ago, iNow said:

Coal is dying bc of cheap natural gas and renewables, plus for some the science of a warming climate, not because of Democrats or “liberals.”

 

I know. As I stated in the post.

But thanks for pointing it out again. Just in case anyone didn't catch that I already pointed out it wasn't because of Democrats or "liberals"

Edited February 4, 2018 by Raider5678

[iNow]

52 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I've talked to many families. They often ask how you voted. Don't ask why. And I've only ever heard one thing. "Democrats destroyed the countries economy."

 

Christ almighty. It’s not always about you.

[Raider5678]

6 minutes ago, iNow said:

*taken out of context quote*

Read the line directly underneath it.

6 minutes ago, iNow said:

Christ almighty. It’s not always about you.

 

Where did I imply it was?

I'm not sure I get where you're going....

Also, when did you become a believer 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Raider5678

[iNow]

5 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I'm not sure I get where you're going...

Read my post again, this time as if I was not talking about you, but instead as if I were talking about those people to whom you spoke on your trips to WV. 

If you don’t understand what I’m getting at, then don’t worry. 

[Raider5678]

8 minutes ago, iNow said:

Read my post again, this time as if I was not talking about you, but instead as if I were talking about those people to whom you spoke on your trips to WV. 

 

Alright, that's my bad.

It seemed as though it was addressed to me personally. Or generally. You get the idea.

 

[Phi for All]

I'm unsure where keeping jobs in the coal industry fits on the conservative/liberal scale. "We've always used coal, and so many people make their living from it" seems to war with the risks of coal mining to health and environment, and the irrational public subsidization of fossil fuels, from a conservative standpoint. Perhaps this is where liberal vision can help transition to alternatives in a way that keeps people working, but towards better, less risky (conservative) jobs and more sustainable energy. We still need coal to make steel to make solar panels and wind turbines.

[Raider5678]

2 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I'm unsure where keeping jobs in the coal industry fits on the conservative/liberal scale. "We've always used coal, and so many people make their living from it" seems to war with the risks of coal mining to health and environment, and the irrational public subsidization of fossil fuels, from a conservative standpoint. Perhaps this is where liberal vision can help transition to alternatives in a way that keeps people working, but towards better, less risky (conservative) jobs and more sustainable energy. We still need coal to make steel to make solar panels and wind turbines.

I totally forgot steel was carbonized iron.

But yes, I agree. There are a lot of jobs to be made in the renewable energy industry.

Well. If the tariffs don't shut it down. 

[Phi for All]

1 minute ago, Raider5678 said:

Well. If the tariffs don't shut it down. 

I see coal as yesterday's technology that needs to be phased out thoughtfully in favor of better, cheaper, cleaner alternatives. To me, it doesn't seem conservative to keep its market propped up with unfair subsidies, and tariffs against its competitors, does it? That seems like an obvious attempt to favor existing technology because of the money being made. The latest information tells me alternative energy technologies are finally viable costwise, so a liberal approach says we should choose the technology that gives us cleaner air and water, and has far fewer reclamation costs. We should be able to re-train people from one industry to the other if we listen to everyone involved and work to do what's best all around.