Conservative Views Explained

[Raider5678]

I doubt I need to point out what made me decide to post this.

And another note, I don't consider Republicans as very accurate representations of conservatives.

This is virtually copied word for word from what others have told me.

 

 

But this is why I don't have a problem being half conservative.

 

1. I'm pragmatic. At its heart, politics should be about making the lives of people better. If an education system sounds good but doesn't help kids learn, what good is it? No matter how good an economic policy sounds today if it turns your city into Detroit over the long term, what good is it? If your stimulus program just adds to the deficit and doesn't actually stimulate the economy, what good is it?

To me, it seems like many liberal policies are based on the fact it makes them feel good or bad, rather than if it actually works or not. 

2. I believe everyone has great potential. Not everyone can be Einstein, steve jobs, or Babe Ruth, but everyone can be good at something. Abraham Maslow said: "If you plan on being anything less than you are capable of being, you will probably be unhappy the rest of your life." Encouraging people to be their best matters on more than just a human level but as a society. I believe everyone regardless of their sex, religion, or race, has potential to be something special.

On the other hand, it seems to me liberalism is encouraging people to fail. So much of modern liberalism is created around teaching people to see themselves as victims, to be dependant on government, and to nurse a sense of grievance against the rest of society because life is unfair. If you're waiting for the government to solve your problems you're going to be waiting a very long time. 

 

3. I don't trust the government. Whether you view government as a "necessary evil" or a "good" will make all the difference in the world on the policies you support.  Our government does very few things better than a regulated private sector. It takes longer, it spends more, it's dumber, provides terrible customer service, is difficult to deal with, and for some reason seems to constantly praise bureaucrats for mediocre performances. 

 

 

4. I'm a student of human nature.  I enjoy figuring out what makes people tick. However, it doesn't take Sigmund Freud to conclude that people will work harder for themselves than someone across the country, that people respond to economic incentives, that morals MATTER, and that self-reliance is better than dependency. A utopian future sounds amazing, but if you have to rewrite human nature in order for it to work, I don't believe it will work. Communism wouldn't have worked if different people were in charge of it. Human nature basically says one day someone will take over, and they won't care about the people they're in charge of.

 

5. I love history. And this quote basically sums it up: " If you crack open a history book once in a while, it's amazing how much you'll learn. If you do, it'll quickly become apparent that capitalism far outstrips every other economic system known to man. You'll also find that as a general rule, the more power that's concentrated in the hands of the government, the worse off the people inevitably seem to be. You'll see that corruption and degeneracy rots societies from within, war will be ever present and most importantly, that freedom, democracy, and prosperity are rare in human history and that wise people should never take those things for granted. The wheels of history turn very slowly, but they do grind civilizations that don't pay attention to their lessons into a very bloody pulp."

 

6. I believe in the collective wisdom of those who came before me. "Thomas Sowell also spoke for me when he said, "Out of every hundred new ideas ninety-nine or more will probably be inferior to the traditional responses which they propose to replace. No one man, however brilliant or well-informed, can come in one lifetime to such fullness of understanding as to safely judge and dismiss the customs or institutions of his society, for those are the wisdom of generations after centuries of experiment in the laboratory of history."

Liberals are heedless, careless and foolish with the past. They call for the overturning of traditions and doctrine that have served us well for hundreds of years based on nothing more than feelings and just shrug off the almost incalculable damage their policies cause. Like an alcoholic who thinks about nothing but where his next drink is coming from, liberals think about nothing other than their feelings in the moment without considering the consequences of their actions."

 

These are the core reasons. Some more points I'd like to point out to correct some common misconceptions.

7. I do not believe I should give every idiot with two hands a gun. I have no problem with guns being regulated from mentally insane people, and there being laws requiring you to register your gun, have a background check, etc. But I also believe in being allowed to have a gun and to use it as I see fit(Target shooting, hunting, etc.) as long as it's legal and moral. That's all I want. 

8. I do not hate everyone who is different from me. I have no problem with them. I do however hate it when others are blamed for my own problems.

9. I do not hate immigrants. I have no problem with immigrants. I just think they should do it legally. 

10. I do not believe poor people shouldn't be given health coverage. Nor do I believe everyone should have to pay their own health coverage. I have no problem using my taxes to help pay for someone who can't afford this basic thing. However, I do not believe health insurance should be handled by the government. It should be regulated, not owned, by the government. 

11. I am not a fascist. I don't believe in having a dictatorship anymore then I believe in communism. 

 

And a personal one, for my own personal reason.

12. I am a Christian. I oppose what I consider immoral practices that infringe upon other peoples rights. I don't expect you to have to live under my religion. I don't expect you to have to live under my rules. But I do believe abortion is wrong. And Liberalism is very much against this. 

 

 

 

 

 

There are many things that I like about conservatives and liberals. They each have their own virtues and their own faults.

Neither is perfect. We need a combination of advancing in society(liberalism) and not going into something before thinking about it(conservatives). 

And as a final note, once again, don't even bother arguing against these with "Republicans did this! Republicans did that!" because I will ignore it. Not because I refuse to see the "error of my ways" but because I am not discussing republicans or democrats, I'm discussing liberalism and conservatism. 

[MigL]

Well, what do you know, I guess I'm a conservative.
Although I don't go as far as not trusting the Government ( no.3 ). and I don't believe Religion has any place in Politics/Governance ( morals yes ).

However, I also like a lot of liberal ideals.
( I get a feeling of 'deja vu' writing this post )

[Raider5678]

5 minutes ago, MigL said:

( I get a feeling of 'deja vu' writing this post )

 

Can't imagine why......

[iNow]

37 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

liberal policies are based on the fact it makes them feel good or bad <...>

modern liberalism is created around teaching people to see themselves as victims, to be dependant on government, and to nurse a sense of grievance against the rest of society because life is unfair <...>

Liberals are heedless, careless and foolish with the past <...>

liberals think about nothing other than their feelings in the moment without considering the consequences of their actions. 

I thought your thread was about conservative views explained. We already have a thread explaining liberal views. 

[Raider5678]

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

I thought your thread was about conservative views explained. We already have a thread explaining liberal views. 

Number 1 I mentioned it's just what it personally seems to me.

Number 2 the quote doesn't really make much sense without a little bit of context.

 

Two of the other ones are a direct quote from someone else, and I felt it inappropriate to cherry pick which parts of the view I would be quoting to make it seem...... less offensive.

 

Additionally, short of those, the majority of it is about Conservative Views. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Raider5678

[MigL]

That's true iNow, and it was excellent while it lasted ( at establishing common ground ) but it quicklydegenerated into a Democrat/Republican slugfest.

[Raider5678]

5 minutes ago, MigL said:

That's true iNow, and it was excellent while it lasted ( at establishing common ground ) but it quicklydegenerated into a Democrat/Republican slugfest.

Hence the reason I pointed out I'm not going to bother responding to things pointed at Republicans/Democrat.

 

 

Edit: 3 minutes after this post, looked like I failed to keep Republicans and Democrats out of it.

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Raider5678

[Ten oz]

8 minutes ago, iNow said:

I thought your thread was about conservative views explained. We already have a thread explaining liberal views. 

Other than being Pro Life I didn't read a single stated reason which is a specific political policy advocated by either Republicans or Democrats. 

 

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, MigL said:

That's true iNow, and it was excellent while it lasted ( at establishing common ground ) but it quicklydegenerated into a Democrat/Republican slugfest.

Perhaps it was a subtle way of suggesting that conservatives can only define themselves in opposition to other foils (like liberals).

[Ten oz]

6 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Number 1 I mentioned it's just what it personally seems to me.

Number 2 the quote doesn't really make much sense without a little bit of context.

 

Two of the other ones are a direct quote from someone else, and I felt it inappropriate to cherry pick which parts of the view I would be quoting to make it seem...... less offensive.

 

Additionally, short of those, the majority of it is about Conservative Views. 

Below I linked the published national platforms for Democrats and for Republicans. How about you read through the specific policies each advocates and take a nothing crack at your list.

Democrats -  https://www.democrats.org/party-platform

Republican - https://www.gop.com/the-2016-republican-party-platform/

[Raider5678]

59 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

And another note, I don't consider Republicans as very accurate representations of conservatives.

And as a final note, once again, don't even bother arguing against these with "Republicans did this! Republicans did that!" because I will ignore it. Not because I refuse to see the "error of my ways" but because I am not discussing republicans or democrats, I'm discussing liberalism and conservatism. 

 

Not pointing fingers or anything.

But, sometimes a blockhead requires bold print and I'm okay with that.

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Raider5678

[swansont]

18 hours ago, iNow said:

I thought your thread was about conservative views explained. We already have a thread explaining liberal views. 

!

Moderator Note

And just so everyone understands, we won't be discussing liberal views, or strawmen of them, any further, in this thread.

 

[MigL]

No, I meant your thread about liberal values was excellent, iNow, because it gave people who may consider themselves conservative, an opportunity to examine their values, and see that they aren't very different from others who consider themselves liberal.
People of different ideology are not so different, we have a lot in common; we all want the best for everyone, but sometimes disagree on implementation.

Conservatism, in a nutshell, says that a wheel is round for a reason'; don't try to re-invent it just for the sake of change.

And I see from Ten oz's response that this thread is about to go the same way.
The world does not revolve around the US Ten oz. There are over 6 bill people who are NOT American/Democrat/Republican.
( I love you guys though )
 

[Phi for All]

I hope it's becoming clearer that this idiotic black and white, on and off, for or against, left or right, Dem or Rep dilution of complex issues and stances only helps perpetuate itself by remaining vague and easily malleable by anyone who embraces them. We can't fix the problem because we can't tell what it is. Raider5678 claims being pragmatic makes him a conservative. Have you ever known a single person who describes themselves as flighty, irrational, and unrealistic? Pretty much everybody claims to be pragmatic. It's a bipartisan stance when it comes to politics.

I think the real area where I part with most people who identify as conservative is the need to judge worthiness. Inevitably, it comes down to public support of the poorest among us, how much to give, how much will help, how much will corrupt. Conservatives usually want to be really conservative with welfare. We've never given enough, imo, but we've experimented with many ways to give as little support as possible. To me, this is where I feel liberal enough to want to try to do better than we've done before, to be the compassionate, communicative, cooperative, intelligent species that takes care of its own, because you never know who is going to do the next great thing, or have the next great idea, or be the next great human.

[Ten oz]

Just now, Raider5678 said:

Not pointing fingers or anything.

But, sometimes a blockhead require bold print and I'm okay with that.

 

The U.S. has a 2 party system. When you become voting age those will be your options. You started this thread here in Politics and not in General Philosophy. So that makes this about politics and not the differences between Conservative and Liberals philosophically.  The political reality, the actual policies being debated and put in place, are done by Democrats and Republicans. Of course you don't feel Republicans neatly match your personal view of conservatism. National parties are made up of tens of millions of people. No political party will ever meet your singular perspective of what you are. That aside which policies and candidates one supports is all that matters. Nancy Pelosi doesn't care what the people that vote for her call themselves. She only cares that they vote for her and once they do they ha e supported Democrats whether they choose to call themselves liberal or conservatives. 

[Raider5678]

5 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

The U.S. has a 2 party system. When you become voting age those will be your options. You started this thread here in Politics and not in General Philosophy. So that makes this about politics and not the differences between Conservative and Liberals philosophically.  The political reality, the actual policies being debated and put in place, are done by Democrats and Republicans. Of course you don't feel Republicans neatly match your personal view of conservatism. National parties are made up of tens of millions of people. No political party will ever meet your singular perspective of what you are. That aside which policies and candidates one supports is all that matters. Nancy Pelosi doesn't care what the people that vote for her call themselves. She only cares that they vote for her and once they do they ha e supported Democrats whether they choose to call themselves liberal or conservatives. 

 

 

When I was a toddler, my parents would show me pictures if I couldn't understand the words.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Raider5678

[MigL]

I was wondering when you were going to weigh in Phi.
( where have yo been ? )

And while I agree with most of your response, I still think you should replace the word 'conservative' in your post with 'Republican'.
Most of the rest of the world's conservatives ( and even SOME American Republicans ) are not the evil incarnate you paint them to be.

Again not all conservatives are Republicans.
And not all liberals are Democrats.
Can w stop conflating them ?
 

[Phi for All]

Just now, MigL said:

Again not all conservatives are Republicans.
And not all liberals are Democrats.
Can w stop conflating them ?

Can we just stop calling them that altogether? Because it's not true, nobody I know personally, nobody I talk with here is conservative/liberal about everything. But that's the implication when you call yourself one or the other. In fact, none of the attributes I've seen listed for either "side" is accurate. It's all just a neat way for the spin machines to keep it simple for the stupid. And we're all being just a bit too stupid atm.

[Ten oz]

12 minutes ago, MigL said:

And I see from Ten oz's response that this thread is about to go the same way.
The world does not revolve around the US Ten oz. There are over 6 bill people who are NOT American/Democrat/Republican.
( I love you guys though )

What liberal and conservative mean varies greatly by country. Raider is in the U.S. and their post is fill with typical tropes which most closely align with U.S. Republican talking points. The stated positions about healthcare, guns, govt, and etc would not apply to self identifying conservatives in Sweden. The philosophical beliefs of self identifying conservatives vs liberals is different all over the world. What might be liberal in Saudi Arabia could still be very conservative in Canada. As a label Conservative and Liberal do not exist uniformly enough  to encompass all people everywhere. It is useful to be specific to the political environmental the labels are applied.   

12 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

 

 

When I was a toddler, my parents would show me pictures if I couldn't understand the words.

 

 

You think what it means to be a conservative in Syria or North Korea mirrors anything you listed? 

[MigL]

Sure, Phi, you know I've never been a big fan of 'labels'.
I would like to point out, that to the average Canadian, Democrats are not liberal at all, but actually, somewhat conservative.
( Republicans are in another category altogether )

So why is this thread going in that direction ?

[Phi for All]

9 minutes ago, MigL said:

And while I agree with most of your response, I still think you should replace the word 'conservative' in your post with 'Republican'.

I get it. You want to be thought of as conservative, but not Republican, because you imagine that means you're practical, thoughtful, not prone to kneejerk responses, willing to examine things closely to avoid mistakes, and responsible with money. All the good things about being conservative, right?

Except all those things are on my liberal list too. They just aren't on your liberal list, and that's the real problem.

[Raider5678]

9 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

What liberal and conservative mean varies greatly by country. Raider is in the U.S. and their post is fill with typical tropes which most closely align with U.S. Republican talking points. The stated positions about healthcare, guns, govt, and etc would not apply to self identifying conservatives in Sweden. The philosophical beliefs of self identifying conservatives vs liberals is different all over the world. What might be liberal in Saudi Arabia could still be very conservative in Canada. As a label Conservative and Liberal do not exist uniformly enough  to encompass all people everywhere. It is useful to be specific to the political environmental the labels are applied.   

1-6 were fairly vague and could be applied to pretty much anywhere in the world. Pragmatic, being questionable to change, not exactly believing human nature allows perfect utopian futures, that's all very vague, as Phi pointed out.

It's a general concept of being resistant to change. You can be resistant to change in some areas and not resistant to change in others. That's how it is.

The rest of the points excluding 12 were just to clear up some common misconceptions, much as iNow did with saying he didn't want to take away all guns, etc.

1-6 were global.

And I KNEW before I even posted it someone like you would come along and start associating it with Republicans / Democrats. So I wanted to point out some things just so that it would hopefully deter people like you from trying to turn it into an attack on Republicans. Hence 7-11.

But clearly, I underestimated how determined you can be to turn this thread into an attack on Republicans. Kudos.

 

 

 

I know. I said I wouldn't respond to people trying to turn this into Republican/Democrat purposefully, but I can't avoid it so there.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Raider5678

[Ten oz]

6 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Can we just stop calling them that altogether? Because it's not true, nobody I know personally, nobody I talk with here is conservative/liberal about everything. But that's the implication when you call yourself one or the other. In fact, none of the attributes I've seen listed for either "side" is accurate. It's all just a neat way for the spin machines to keep it simple for the stupid. And we're all being just a bit too stupid atm.

True, but this is a political thread and the actual practice of politics in the U.S. is Democrat and Republican. I personally do not see it as productive to pretend every individual is an island. The rubber hits the road on election day and people do end up choosing. Democrats and Republicans are our President, Senators, Governors, and etc. It is useless to discuss politics while refusing to acknowledge thats; especially if we're using their (Democrat/Republican) talking points as the OP did. 

4 minutes ago, MigL said:

I would like to point out, that to the average Canadian, Democrats are not liberal at all, but actually, somewhat conservative.

Exactly

[MigL]

Well, when you post your liberal list, I'll tell you which points I agree with or don't.
So far, only iNow and Raider have posted their liberal/conservative lists, and those are the ones we've been trying to discuss.
But others keep bringing up Democrat/Republican differences.

Please don't tell me what I think.
Or do you think your definition of 'liberal' is the only valid one or that counts ?

edit : directed @ Phi

Edited February 2, 2018 by MigL

[Raider5678]

2 minutes ago, MigL said:

Well, when you post your liberal list, I'll tell you which points I agree with or don't.
So far, only iNow and Raider have posted their liberal/conservative lists, and those are the ones we've been trying to discuss.
But others keep bringing up Democrat/Republican differences.

Please don't tell me what I think.
Or do you think your definition of 'liberal' is the only valid one or that counts ?

edit : directed @ Phi

We could just start another thread and ask everyone to list what they're conservative on and what they're liberal on.