Young Offenders & the Legal System (split from Yay, GUNS!)

[dimreepr]

19 minutes ago, iNow said:

My social feeds right now are filled with people who want vengeance... be damned with constitutional protections and our system of justice... it's time to strip this guy of his rights and publicly stone him... get out the tar... get out the feathers... let's burn him alive... he's a witch! 

 

That reminds me of this case, some people even tried to attack them (10-year-old children) as they were transported to the courts. In many countries, even here had they been 6 months younger, they wouldn't be prosecuted. When I think of the suffering that poor child went through I struggle to contain my anger but justice has to be more than revenge whatever the circumstances. 

[Raider5678]

9 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

That reminds me of this case, some people even tried to attack them (10-year-old children) as they were transported to the courts. In many countries, even here had they been 6 months younger, they wouldn't be prosecuted. When I think of the suffering that poor child went through I struggle to contain my anger but justice has to be more than revenge whatever the circumstances. 

The sad part is, having read that, it isn't even on my radar as one of the most heinous cases I've ever heard.

[dimreepr]

8 minutes ago, iNow said:

More on topic, I'm wrestling with a seeming contradiction, if not outright hypocrisy in my position. How can I stand and root my arguments on the principle of constitutional protections applying equally for all (even those committing heinous heartless acts) while also in parallel supporting a drastic reduction in firearm volume across our country (given that said firearms are in so many ways themselves also constitutionally protected)?

 

I should have started a new topic, sorry, perhaps the mods can split this tangent.

I don't see a contradiction though, justice isn't just about following the law if that law is wrong, much like our law that allows a 10 YO to be prosecuted as an adult.

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

The sad part is, having read that, it isn't even on my radar as one of the most heinous cases I've ever heard.

Is it heinous? Or do they just need understanding and nurture?

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19941025&slug=1937798

[zapatos]

10 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Is it heinous? Or do they just need understanding and nurture?

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19941025&slug=1937798

Heinous I'd say. And while I'd agree they need understanding and nurture, they don't JUST need understanding and nurture.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Heinous I'd say. And while I'd agree they need understanding and nurture, they don't JUST need understanding and nurture.

What else? 

[zapatos]

I don't know as that is not my profession, but my feeling is that what they did was outside the norm to such an extent that understanding and nurture would not have prevented what happened, or guided them back to normal behavior.

There are millions of children who do not receive understanding or nurture yet don't exhibit behavior anywhere near what those boys did. I feel there was likely some issue that went deeper than poor upbringing. Many people have warning signs at age 10 that something is wrong, such as torturing small animals. These boys moved to heinous behavior at a younger age than most everyone who ends up doing these sorts of things.

[dimreepr]

15 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I don't know as that is not my profession, but my feeling is that what they did was outside the norm to such an extent that understanding and nurture would not have prevented what happened, or guided them back to normal behavior.

There are millions of children who do not receive understanding or nurture yet don't exhibit behavior anywhere near what those boys did. I feel there was likely some issue that went deeper than poor upbringing. Many people have warning signs at age 10 that something is wrong, such as torturing small animals. These boys moved to heinous behavior at a younger age than most everyone who ends up doing these sorts of things.

To be honest, if I see a 2 YO's bottom lip start to quiver I'm putty in their hand, but the question we have to ask is, would you feel comfortable to be judged by a jury of 10 YO children? If not why not?

[zapatos]

Of course not for what I hope are obvious reasons. Why do you ask?

[dimreepr]

11 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Why do you ask?

Because we expect them to be judged as if they are.

[zapatos]

5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Because we expect them to be judged as if they are.

As if they are what?

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

As if they are what?

Able to judge.

[zapatos]

We expect them to be judged as if they are able to judge?

I don't know what that means.

[Raider5678]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Is it heinous? Or do they just need understanding and nurture?

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19941025&slug=1937798

Heinous.

Sometimes, you can't simply attribute the wrongs somebody has done to lack of understanding and nurture.

Nor can you simply attribute what someone has done wrong to mental illness.

Sometimes what they've done was just wrong. And it can be that simple.

 

Am I saying it's always their fault directly? No.

But sometimes it is.

 

 

If everyone could point to themselves, say it was due to lack of nurture and bad upbringing, and we accepted it, we could never convict anyone of anything.

 

 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

We expect them to be judged as if they are able to judge?

I don't know what that means.

If they aren't able to judge others, they aren't able to judge themselves.

2 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Am I saying it's always their fault directly? No.

But sometimes it is.

 

When?

[zapatos]

1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

If they aren't able to judge others, they aren't able to judge themselves.

Okay. That sounds reasonable. I'm not sure what it has to do with what we were discussing though. Does their inability to judge mean they don't need anything more than understanding and nurture? Or does it mean the crime was not heinous?

 

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Okay. That sounds reasonable. I'm not sure what it has to do with what we were discussing though. Does their inability to judge mean they don't need anything more than understanding and nurture?

 

What else?

4 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Or does it mean the crime was not heinous?

 

It depends on your definition of heinous If they're not able to judge?

[rangerx]

The shooter by virtue of age cannot legally buy nor consume alcohol. Neither could they purchase a handgun.

However, permitting a child of that age to purchase a military style weapon and unlimited amounts of ammunition (no less solely for the purpose of denying the lives and liberty of others) goes way beyond the youth offender system.

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

What else?

Well, I suppose if all a child needs is understanding and nurture, then we can do away with child psychologists, drugs for behavioral problems in children, juvenile courts, juvenile detention centers, etc., and replace them all with strong parental figures.

Forgive me if I don't share your beliefs.

 

 

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, rangerx said:

The shooter by virtue of age cannot legally buy nor consume alcohol. Neither could they purchase a handgun.

However, permitting a child of that age to purchase a military style weapon and unlimited amounts of ammunition (no less solely for the purpose of denying the lives and liberty of others) goes way beyond the youth offender system.

Wrong thread.

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

Well, I suppose if all a child needs is understanding and nurture, then we can do away with child psychologists, drugs for behavioral problems in children, juvenile courts, juvenile detention centers, etc., and replace them all with strong parental figures.

 

When did I say that?

Juvenile means childish, immature; as in not adult.






 

[zapatos]

12 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

When did I say that?

Me: "Does their inability to judge mean they don't need anything more than understanding and nurture?"

You: "What else?"

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Me: "Does their inability to judge mean they don't need anything more than understanding and nurture?"

You: "What else?"

Fair enough, but how does a child psychologist offer more?

[zapatos]

How does understanding and nurturing offer the equivalent of anti-psychotic drugs?

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

How does understanding and nurturing offer the equivalent of anti-psychotic drugs?

Well, that depends on need.

Are you suggesting the mentally ill deserves less understanding?

[Raider5678]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

When?

The murder of Sylvia Likens.

Over the period of three months, the caretaker of 16 year old Sylvia Likens did the following things on a daily basis:

• Extinguishing lit cigarettes on her bare skin. Medical examinations put it at more then 100 times.
• Beating her.
• Starving her.
• Tying her up.
• Forcing her to eat her own feces and urine.
• Clubbing her with large objects.
• Clawing her back.
• Using her as "judo" practice.
• Mauling her vagina.
• Lacerating her.
• Pouring boiling hot water on her.
• Rubbing salt in her wounds.
• Forcing her to masturbate with glass bottles.
• Forcing her to eat ridiculous things, and when she threw it up making her eat it the vomit.
• Publically tied down and put into a bathtub filled with scolding hot water.
• Restrained so that other people could come and rub salt in her wounds as "punishment"
• Had words carved onto her skin.
• Forced her to write a letter saying she did all this to herself.

 

She died.

A slow, horrible, miserable death.

 

Perhaps you can say to yourself that you can't really blame this woman for what she did. That she only needed nurture and understanding.

But I don't give a damn. There is nothing about that, that will ever allow me to understand why she did it and feel bad for her instead.

And the victim sure as hell wouldn't either.

 

She claimed insanity at the trial.

 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Are you suggesting the mentally ill deserves less understanding?

 

This wasn't addressed to me, but no.

The mentally ill need understanding.

But not everything can be excused just because you understand it.

I can understand why someone could become angry and kill someone.

That doesn't mean I excuse it.

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by Raider5678