Young Offenders & the Legal System (split from Yay, GUNS!)

[dimreepr]

When justice becomes revenge, it's because we don't understand.

[Raider5678]

3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

When justice becomes revenge, it's because we don't understand.

If you consider putting that woman in jail revenge, what would you even consider justice?

Letting her go because she was mentally ill?

 

All I said, sometimes what they do is inexcusable. You can't excuse it with "They weren't loved or nurtured enough as children." or "They didn't realize what they were doing was wrong."

Sometimes you can. I agree.

But with something like this, she knew what she was doing was wrong.

She knew, for a fact, that hurting Slyvia was wrong.

She didn't just "forget" about it.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Raider5678

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

If you consider putting that woman in jail revenge, what would you even consider justice?

Letting her go because she was mentally ill?

When did I say anything about letting them go free?

[Raider5678]

Just now, dimreepr said:

When did I say anything about letting them go free?

"When justice becomes revenge, it's because we don't understand."

Unless I'm wrong, you were saying that she was convicted out of revenge, not justice, because we don't understand why the woman did what she did.

[HB of CJ]

Focusing upon the original statement.  We are human.  The good, the bad and the ugly.  Also the crazy.  The United States still is a nation of Law.  Any and all normal sane Americans right now feel the pain.  I know I do.  In a free society can these attacks be prevented?  No.  Can they perhaps be reduced?  Hopefully.  One crazy guy.  Perhaps a lax security system at the High School but we do not know that yet.  Blame the individual.  Do not blame the method or object.  Control such individuals?  YES!  How?  A solution remains very difficult.   Respectfully.

[dimreepr]

5 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

because we don't understand why the woman did what she did.

 

Do you?

[Raider5678]

Just now, dimreepr said:

Do you?

No.

Which is why I said you were implying she was convicted out of revenge, not justice.

And since revenge is typically worse than justice, what would have been the appropriate sentence for her?

Since you apparently understand why she did it.

 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

Forgive me if I don't share your beliefs.

A simplistic version, one that admittedly misses important nuance, is that these issues are the result of a lack of compassion and caring.

The attackers lack compassion and caring for their victims. The attacker likely lacked compassion and caring being shown to them during childhood. We often lack compassion and caring for the attacker once they act in these ways. 

Nurture is very important here, and more often than not will steer people away from their worst predilections given by nature. "Give the child and I'll give you the man."

More broadly, if it was a lack of compassion and caring that led to events like these, I'm unsure additional lack of compassion and caring is the right way to solve them or prevent more.

[/60secondbuddhist]

Edited February 15, 2018 by iNow

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

No.

Which is why I said you were implying she was convicted out of revenge, not justice.

And since revenge is typically worse than justice, what would have been the appropriate sentence for her?

Since you apparently understand why she did it.

 

Need I outline your logical fallacy?

[Raider5678]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

More broadly, if it was a lack of compassion and caring that led to events like these, I'm unsure additional lack of compassion and caring is the right way to solve it.

[/60secondbuddhist]

 

I'm unsure additional compassion and caring is the right way to solve it either.

It's like an egg.

If it's cracked, it's not like you're going to be able to put it back together if you start taking care of it now.

 

Additionally, there are people who were treated way worse and didn't decide they had to turn around and do it on others.

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by Raider5678

[zapatos]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

A simplistic version, one that admittedly misses important nuance, is that these issues are the result of a lack of compassion and caring. The attackers lack compassion and caring for their victims. The attacker likely lacked compassion and caring during childhood. We lack compassion and caring for the attacker once they act. 

Nurture is very important here, and more often than not will steer people away from their worst predilections given by nature.

More broadly, if it was a lack of compassion and caring that led to events like these, I'm unsure additional lack of compassion and caring is the right way to solve it.

[/60secondbuddhist]

I'm skeptical that a lack of nurture is the only issue given the severity of the crime. That is why I suggested understanding and nurture were not enough in this case.

[iNow]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

I'm skeptical that a lack of nurture is the only issue given the severity of the crime.

As am I. I acknowledge my point lacks important nuance.

2 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I'm unsure additional compassion and caring is the right way to solve it

I'm willing to try

[Raider5678]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

I'm willing to try

 

More along the lines of my opinion, is how are you going to do that?

Is it compassionate to say "We're compassionate to you. But we're still locking you away for life."

 

I mean, let's take the crime that originally started this all off.

Those two boys.

They had premeditated the murder of a child and spent the day trying to kidnap one to kill.

How would you show your compassion and understanding there?

Or how about a more touchy subject.

If a man rapes a young girl, are you still willing to try to show him compassion and understanding? Do you blame a lack of nurture? 

 

It sounds well and good to say you're willing to try and be compassionate to these people.

But trying to apply it in principle isn't exactly simple.

So where would you start?

Let's say you didn't have to worry about any legal things at all. You could decide they don't have to go to jail at all if you'd like.

How would you go about it?

Edited February 15, 2018 by Raider5678

[StringJunky]

10 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I'm skeptical that a lack of nurture is the only issue given the severity of the crime. That is why I suggested understanding and nurture were not enough in this case.

In the case of this latest boy, his adoptive mother died in November. If he has lost his parents/caregivers twice, including an unsettled carer period in his critical toddler years that will probably adversely affect  his development of empathy.... to name one. This is borne out by his long-term inability to form positive relationships with his school mates. I think this is not a case of evil per se... the same with that Dylan lad.

Edited February 15, 2018 by StringJunky

[Sensei]

18 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I'm skeptical that a lack of nurture is the only issue given the severity of the crime. That is why I suggested understanding and nurture were not enough in this case.

That reminds me about one pedophile and serial killer, who had the last wish prior execution, that scientists should receive his brain and examine it.

They found that he had brain tumor.

Execution and cremation of such persons disallow learning true reasons why they did it, and how it developed during their life.

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by Sensei

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, Sensei said:

That reminds me about one pedophile and serial killer, who had the last wish prior execution, that scientists should receive his brain and examine it.

They found that he had tumor.

Execution and cremation of such persons disallow learning true reasons why they did it, and how it developed during their life.

 

That's true, but Zapatos wasn't calling for execution that I know of.

He was saying it's not always about nurture and support.

That's a prime example.

 

Although, I'm not sure you can really link a tumor to being a pedophile and a serial killer.

[iNow]

17 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Is it compassionate to say "We're compassionate to you. But we're still locking you away for life."

No. See also: My thread on our misguided focus on punishment instead of rehabilitation and treatment. (Disclaimer: You were very clearly not yet a member here when I started it).

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

No. See also: My thread on our misguided focus on punishment instead of rehabilitation and treatment. (Disclaimer: You were very clearly not yet a member here when I started it).

Search function didn't show it.

But that's a bit iffy.

Link?

[Sensei]

24 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Although, I'm not sure you can really link a tumor to being a pedophile and a serial killer.

Each case should be studied independently. Without generalization.

Scientific method of checking whether brain tumor (if it has been found) caused change of preferences (like pedophilia) would be e.g. MRI scan of brain activity while showing series of images of women, men, child, at various ages, to check whether they caused excitement. Then remove brain tumor, and repeat scan. Obviously it's impossible to do it with dead body of convicted and executed serial killer.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Sensei

[zapatos]

43 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Each case should be studied independently. Without generalization.

Scientific method of checking whether brain tumor (if it has been found) caused change of preferences (like pedophilia) would be e.g. MRI scan of brain activity while showing series of images of women, men, child, at various ages, to check whether they caused excitement. Then remove brain tumor, and repeat scan. Obviously it's impossible to do it with dead body of convicted and executed serial killer.

I'm guessing that it is impossible to determine that a tumor caused pedophilia with a living, jailed serial killer, regardless of whether or not he was no longer a pedophile after the surgery. 

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

I'm guessing that it is impossible to determine that a tumor caused pedophilia with a living, jailed serial killer, regardless of whether or not he was no longer a pedophile after the surgery. 

But we must be willing to show compassion.

If we had found the tumor before we executed him, we could have removed it, told him he was cured and released him!

Then we could have monitored him, and if he happened to rape another child then we can assume it didn't work that way in him.

But maybe it's true for the next pedophile.

 

And then, when we find someone who after getting their tumor removed, doesn't rape another child, we can send the findings to the media, and they'll tell everyone pedophiles are caused by tumors.

Typically how these case studies go anyways. They get 1 positive and the media says it's 100% true in the headlines. Which is pretty much all anyone ever reads.

[iNow]

28 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

we must be willing to show compassion.

Yes, and ideally we can do this without snark and unnecessary flippancy. 

[Raider5678]

17 minutes ago, iNow said:

Yes, and ideally we can do this without snark and unnecessary flippancy. 

You're right. That was uncalled for.

I'm sorry.

[Sensei]

14 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

And then, when we find someone who after getting their tumor removed, doesn't rape another child, we can send the findings to the media, and they'll tell everyone pedophiles are caused by tumors.

Typically how these case studies go anyways. They get 1 positive and the media says it's 100% true in the headlines. Which is pretty much all anyone ever reads.

And it would be obviously wrong generalization. To have "catchy story" by incompetent/greedy journalist.

 

Pedophilia, or other sexual abnormalities, can have various sources like:

- chemical change (e.g. abuse of drugs and/or narcotics and/or alcohols and/or cigarettes. Also by pregnant mother and family)

- physical change (e.g. tumor, undetected stroke, or other damage, causing abnormal functionality)

- sociological (e.g. molestation in childhood)

- genetics (e.g. damage of DNA)

- ....

 

 

[Raider5678]

11 minutes ago, Sensei said:

And it would be obviously wrong generalization. To have "catchy story" by incompetent/greedy journalist.

 

Pedophilia, or other sexual abnormalities, can have various sources like:

- chemical change (e.g. abuse of drugs and/or narcotics and/or alcohols and/or cigarettes. Also by pregnant mother and family)

- physical change (e.g. tumor, undetected stroke, or other damage, causing abnormal functionality)

- sociological (e.g. molestation in childhood)

- genetics (e.g. damage of DNA)

- ....

 

 

Have genetics been linked to pedophilia?