Breaking bonds of H20 with Heat and Pressure?

[HyFC3S]

Hi,I am not sure if this is in the correct forum,I am not much of a science person but it has always intrigued me.I know you can split the bonds of H20 through electrolysis.I heard of another process which involves intense pressure and heat to break the bonds between the H20.I am not sure if this is possible but if it is,how much pressure and heat are we talking about that will break the bonds?Thanks in advance!

[d22k]

intense heat will do it.

 

Molten hot iron dropped into a bucket of hot water ( a small bucket) can cause the bonds to break, resulting in detonation.

 

and you get molten metal flying everywhere! yay!

 

btw, that was a joke, while it WILL work, i wouldn't recommend it if u want to live.

[HyFC3S]

Alright haha,well I wont be having molton hot iron any time soon.So at what temp would I need to reach to break the bonds?

[d22k]

weeeell, i was referring to using the thermit reaction to get molten iron, as its not something u can buy from sainsburys

 

and so were talking about 2500c (source)

[HyFC3S]

haha yea,i just got the joke a few minutes ago when reading through the threads here lol.Alright thanks for the info!

 

EDIT:Also,will pressure help the H2 and the O2 to stay apart?I read that to help make the elements from re-grouping,u need 5000 degree C.

[d22k]

i dont see how pressure could possibly HELP, but i may be wrong.

and if 2500c is enough to separate them then 2500c will stop them recombining... for obvious reasons...

 

Hope u dont mind me asking, but why do u wanna know?

 

just curious, or are you planning some experiment?

[HyFC3S]

Hahaha well It is a little experiment,which I am sure has been tried before.Here is a lil low down:

 

The wankel rotary engine I will be using contains 4 fuel injectors for 2 chambers(2 injectors per cahmber).But since the fuel is injected in the intake manifold,I will move the injectors into the intake chamber for direct inject so I can use h2 as fuel.I will have to use direct injection since h2 is lighter than air.But instead of just running straight h2, I wanted to shoot a small amount of h2 along with water into the intake chamber,which will then compress and detonate the hydrogen,causing thermal water splitting(hopefully lol).Newayz that is it.But I wont be attempting this experiment for another few months since I have to rebuild/learn more about the engine I am using.Thanks for the info!

[d22k]

hmm, IIRC the compression ratio is higher in wankel engines, but by how much?

 

people have been injecting water into engines for a while now, as you most probably know...

 

but it makes no mention of the water splitting...

 

water injection

 

sounds like a fascinating project though, keep us updated!

[BenSon]

EDIT:Also,will pressure help the H2 and the O2 to stay apart?I read that to help make the elements from re-grouping,u need 5000 degree C.

i dont see how pressure could possibly HELP, but i may be wrong.

and if 2500c is enough to separate them then 2500c will stop them recombining... for obvious reasons...

HyFC3S, you don't need 5000 degrees to keep H2 and O2 from reforming. d22k, while you are correct that by keeping the temperature above the point of decomposition will stop it reforming there is more energy efficient ways. If you rapidly cooled the H2 and O2 down past activation energy then you would keep them uncombined and use far less energy in the process. Oh, and yes pressure would only hinder keeping the gases unreacted in fact HyFC3S your best bet would be to keep the pressure low.

 

~Scott

[d22k]

thanks for clearing that up ^^

[HyFC3S]

Alright thanks for all of the info.The 13b rotary engine I am using has a compression ratio of 9.7:1, but there are other rotors around that have lower compression ratios.I will take pictures and maybe videos when I start the project in a few months,I will definetly post a log up for people to see later.

[jdurg]

Really, the explosion you get when you drop molten iron into water isn't from hydrogen and oxygen. It's caused by the water instantly going over its boiling point and the superheated water suddenly vaporizing which sends the molten iron all over the place. The rapidly expanding steam can sometimes look like an explosion of hydrogen and oxygen, but there is a big difference between the two.

[d22k]

jdurg, i realise that does happen, however, i was warned about the water splitting on these forums (i could of sworn it was you ) and heard the same thing when i was researching on other sites...

[jdurg]

Well, in the other thermite thread I mentioned that any water which gets mixed with the molten iron will immediately create a steam explosion that sends liquid Fe all over the place.

[YT2095]

the worst is water dripping into a vat of molten iron, that`s a KILLER!, I`ve seen it

 

the other way around isn`t so bad (bad enough) but not AS bad, and it`ll NOT split H and O in water!

[BenSon]

So, it seems that the thermal decomposition is beginning to occur about

1800K, and is can not be complete at 2800K.

Click here I think its a possibility.

 

~Scott

[jdurg]

But you also need to realize that the water will hit the hot iron and immediately form steam. This steam will instantly move out and away and be unable to absorb any more energy from the molten iron. In addition, the molten iron will quickly absorb energy from the water and cool down to a lower temperature. Frankly, there's just not enough time for the water to be in contact with the iron and heat up to the point of decomposition.

[Asad majeed]

By applying this it may can split enough  hydrogen to run vehicle

I am not trying to apply electrolysis alone, I simply observed fish gills and follow process bit to further 

My formula is based combination of 3 different sciences thrice of these science are practice in our daily life,  

Electrolysis, Pressure, and Membrane grade pressure filtration, 

Electrolysis: Using electrolysis to guid the properties to right direction as we have 2 separately charged membrane with different sizing grades ,and to do this we don’t need so much of electricity, molecules of H2O will follow flowing patterns naturally

For example side of H2 will stick to Membrane wall has a negative charge with size grading of 30NM, and oxygen side will stick to membrane wall has positive charge with size grading of 70NM, 

High Pressure pulse will break and push anything out of the negative charged membrane undersize of 30NM which is pure H2, Oxygen simply cannot pass thru membrane as it size is greater then 30NM, as it remains only oxygen electrolysis will carry oxygen to positive charged membrane and pressure pulse will push oxygen out and water stays inside the membranes,

Positive charged membrane do the same push oxygen out electrolysis will carry hydrogen to negative charged membrane, membrane size is ideal to escape out, 

this whole process will consume less energy then making cup of hot water,  and generates enough hydrogen to run engine plus store few KGs 

 

 

Information

Design

by coiling dual membranes for example 0.33nm and 0.66nm will perfectly work to split and separate both gasses also will help to guid to consuming unit, you may notice if you split by electrolysis process there is no way to guid the gass direction, or it simply became too dangerous as hydrogen has no taste and smell, 

what are the possible safety to store Hydrogen for vehicles, 

Technology now days advance enough with huge range of detection and control systems now days, by designing smart Hydrogen tank can be more safer then even fuel tanks in case of impact or flames,

By using airbag technology as quick respond. it’s possible to rebound Hydrogen and oxygen with in the storage.

and it will take micro second to turn your flammable gas Into few liters water tank, 

I accrued few experiments on my 2.5L GMC and I increase my fuel economy from 6km/1L to 28km/1L

 Please check attachments, 

Feel free to share your idea to improve the design and make it work full, 

I am very much interested to work on it if someone has proper lab and allow me to join their project, 

Thanks 

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by Asad majeed
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