Gun control, which side wins?

[zapatos]

Quote

Firearms killed more children and adolescents in 2020 than car accidents, which had long been the leading cause of death for youngsters, a Washington Post analysis has found.

The change was caused by a 30% increase in gun deaths for people 19 and younger in 2020. Gun deaths continued to outpace cars for that age group in 2021, The Post found, as the rate of gun killings increased an additional 8%.

https://news.yahoo.com/guns-killed-more-youngsters-cars-214020838.html

Quote

A 7-year-old tweet on gun ownership by Texas Governor Greg Abbott has resurfaced in light of an elementary school shooting in Uvalde, Texas, on Tuesday that left at least 19 children and two adults dead.

"I'm EMBARRASSED: Texas #2 in nation for new gun purchases, behind CALIFORNIA. Let's pick up the pace Texans," Texas Governor Greg Abbott tweeted in October 2015, with a link to a blog article about Texas ordering 1 million guns that year.

https://news.yahoo.com/texas-gov-greg-abbott-tweeted-075023711.html

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

Am mostly here because this is not the transgender athlete thread.  Phew.  But also wanted to share this....

https://www.dailykos.com/story/2022/5/25/2100317/-Guns-will-be-banned-for-Trump-s-upcoming-speech-at-NRA-convention

Here's your hypocrisy in action, right here. It's only common sense to ban guns for a good reason.

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Here's your hypocrisy in action, right here.

Please be selective in the flinging of pronouns!

3 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Reframing this issue as "gun responsibility" will force politicians into a clearer stance. I don't think they'd get elected if they objected to responsible gun use.

Won't help. They've been claiming for some time now that any regulation - all the way down to the restriction of military-style assault weapons - is a blow to the rights of "responsible gun-owners" (i.e. their membership and voters)

3 hours ago, TheVat said:

Am mostly here because this is not the transgender athlete thread.  Phew.  But also wanted to share this....

https://www.dailykos.com/story/2022/5/25/2100317/-Guns-will-be-banned-for-Trump-s-upcoming-speech-at-NRA-convention

 

 

Does this mean (all appendages crossed, where too short for braiding) that his minions are turning against him, like the Georgia voters did? Or is Pence back in the crosshairs?

[Trurl]

I am not for the sale of assault rifles.

But many already own them. You cannot eliminate them.

It is a dangerous move to change the Constitution. I know that seems ridiculous. But that is why the gun laws are debated so heavily. If the gun owners concede to one law they will be subjected to more laws eventually leading to loss of all rights.

I don’t agree but this is why nothing is done.

We need guns to be tied to a psychological program on our cell phone. Just as Google tracks us. Things like gps location, flagged searches, and the psychological profiles that all the data creates.

This seems impossible but what if a gun check required your online profile to be searched?

[Phi for All]

24 minutes ago, Trurl said:

I am not for the sale of assault rifles.

But many already own them. You cannot eliminate them.

So it's wrong to sell assault rifles, but if you already have one it's OK forever?

26 minutes ago, Trurl said:

It is a dangerous move to change the Constitution. I know that seems ridiculous. But that is why the gun laws are debated so heavily.

Is it really? Are you saying it's dangerous because these people will use their guns to defend their right to have guns? Or are you saying amendments are dangerous?

29 minutes ago, Trurl said:

If the gun owners concede to one law they will be subjected to more laws eventually leading to loss of all rights.

I think this is the bullshit that's being shoveled, sure, but it's NOT what's being asked right now. Right now, we need to reduce the availability of guns through better checks, and we need to regulate private sales better. Claiming that means all your rights will be lost is an extremist talking point, a strawman that has a bright red target on it to make it easier to hit.

32 minutes ago, Trurl said:

I don’t agree but this is why nothing is done.

I don't agree either, or with your assessment. I think the reason nothing gets done is because of heavy lobbying, average people believing arguments about losing guns totally if we ban assault rifles, and a climate of racist fears and paranoia that will help keep arms makers in business ad infinitum.

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

7 hours ago, Phi for All said:

 I don't think they'd get elected if they objected to responsible gun use.

...Orwellian hit job on the term notwithstanding...

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

 I think the reason nothing gets done is because of heavy lobbying, average people believing arguments about losing guns totally if we ban assault rifles, and a climate of racist fears and paranoia that will help keep arms makers in business ad infinitum.

 

Yes.  And it's kind of interesting that these average people never seem to ponder what would happen if citizens (non-military/non-LEOs) lost guns totally.  (Never mind that 70% already don't have guns). Our culture has defined the scenario as unthinkable and not to be discussed. 

The Second Amendment zealots couldn't give a crap about vast tracts of the Constitution and would probably repeal a whole slew of amendments if they thought it would help their narrow ideological goals.  

[Trurl]

 

Quote

So it's wrong to sell assault rifles, but if you already have one it's OK forever?

 

No. I am just saying you can’t go back to no weapons. I believe the assault weapons ban that expired only covered new manufacturing. Just like the legalization of weed you can’t fix the problem by making it illegal again.

 

Quote

Is it really? Are you saying it's dangerous because these people will use their guns to defend their right to have guns? Or are you saying amendments are dangerous?

 

Both are problems. But I am saying if the gun lobbies lose one restriction they know more restrictions will follow. So we can’t agree on any laws.

It is important to note, every time a ban on guns is mentioned it only increases sales.

We are not in disagreement. I am just stating that is the reason there is no easy fix. We can’t agree on masks or abortion. How can we pass gun control?

 

Make gun control a federal law with universal background checks?

[iNow]

6 minutes ago, Trurl said:

It is important to note, every time a ban on guns is mentioned it only increases sales.

Correction: Every time a high profile or mass shooting happens, people THINK guns MIGHT get banned this time so sales surge.

School shootings like these move more product for gun manufacturers than any advertisement ever could, and it’s only gotten worse in the 5 years since this graphic was published.

[Alex_Krycek]

11 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Won't help. They've been claiming for some time now that any regulation - all the way down to the restriction of military-style assault weapons - is a blow to the rights of "responsible gun-owners" (i.e. their membership and voters)

The focus on the "military-style assault weapons" is a red herring, in my opinion.  The AR-15 is just a standard semi automatic rifle when it comes down to it (glorified to look cool for the gun nerds).  There are actually considerably higher caliber rifles available such as the Army's new MCX Spear which are now available on the commercial market.  The constant focus on banning the AR-15 is a non-sequitur and would be drop in the ocean in terms of actual prevention.

My sugestions on how to mitigate these massacres:

1.  Address the fixation on violence and control in the media (movies / TV / video games).  A shift has occurred in the last 20 years in the mindset of young people where extreme violence is considered acceptable (normalized through the aforementioned forms of media).  Unfortunately, this kind of violent entertainment is the most profitable in a free market system.  There should be significantly increased regulation on what type of content is available to those under 21.    

2.  Raise the age of gun ownership to 21 everywhere.  Nobody under 21 should be able to buy a firearm.  Giving a firearm to a person under 21 should be a felony in every state.

3.  Every school funded with taxpayer dollars must be airtight in terms of security.  Schools are the number one soft target for this kind of terrorism.  Schools should be impenetrable fortresses to anyone without security clearance, and should be regularly inspected to maintain standards of security.

4.  Make it illegal for the media to report the assailant's name and identity.  These terrorists are doing this in part for ego manifestation/glorification; they should know that even after their atrocity is committed ,they will remain anonymous.  The mass shooter event has unfortunately become a meme now in our society, driven in part by the attention sought by the assailants.  As a society we should begin to dismantle the perceived psychological rewards the attacker's see in committing such crimes.

5.  Significantly increase mental health counseling / services for young people. With the exception of the Las Vegas shooter, it seems that young people predominantly commit this particular type of atrocity.  There should be a place for them to get help free of charge.  The barriers around mental health treatment must come down.

  

Edited May 27, 2022 by Alex_Krycek

[Peterkin]

2 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

The focus on the "military-style assault weapons" is a red herring, in my opinion.  The AR-15 is just a standard semi automatic rifle when it comes down to it (glorified to look cool for the gun nerds).  There are actually considerably higher caliber rifles available such as the Army's new MCX Spear which are now available on the commercial market.  The constant focus on banning the AR-15 is a non-sequitur and would be drop in the ocean in terms of actual prevention.

Okay, fine. All the other kinds of gun kill people too, and normal people shouldn't have any of those guns in their homes, where the five-year-old can get hold of them and kill his daddy for fun. I wasn't on about the particular gun, but about the framing of the terms.

5 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

There should be significantly increased regulation on what type of content is available to those under 21.    

 The culture - all cultures - has/have been permeated by violence for millennia, by one means of communication or another. Public executions by fire, guillotine, impalement or drawing and quartering have always been popular entertainment. Good luck trying to regulate content on the internet! 

12 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

2.  Raise the age of gun ownership to 21 everywhere.  Nobody under 21 should be able to buy a firearm.  Giving a firearm to a person under 21 should be a felony in every state.

What happens on the stroke of 21 to turn sociopaths, wingnuts and assholes into good citizens? Over 21, they just become more efficient at killing: an adult mass shooter acting in cold blood is a lot more dangerous than a teenage hothead. . https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/vio.2018.0021

21 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

.  Every school funded with taxpayer dollars must be airtight in terms of security.  Schools are the number one soft target for this kind of terrorism.  Schools should be impenetrable fortresses to anyone without security clearance, and should be regularly inspected to maintain standards of security.

Home schooling may be lonely, but it sounds less soul-destroying for the children than being forced to enter a fortress every morning.

25 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Make it illegal for the media to report the assailant's name and identity. 

That part's easy. Okay, not so much easy, given the first amendment, but the mainstream press are already up against the paywall, so they can be intimidated. Except FUX broadcasting, maybe. And Sinclair. But what about the non-mainstream sources of public information?

23 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

5.  Significantly increase mental health counseling / services for young people. With the exception of the Las Vegas shooter, it seems that young people committing this particular type of atrocity.  There should be a place for them to get help free of charge.  The barriers around mental health treatment must come down.

Sure... also kidney transplants and long-term care for chronic illness.... Whenever universal health care kicks in.

 

None of that regulation can happen without a huge electoral and legislative reform. And I don't see the wealth and power and fearless popular support to bring that about.  

[Sensei]

Around here I don't know anyone who has a gun who isn't a criminal....

The gun industry wants EVERYONE to have a gun.... just like the tampon company wants every woman to have their product.. The fight with it is not as simple as forbidding tampon..

Edited May 27, 2022 by Sensei

[Alex_Krycek]

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

Okay, fine. All the other kinds of gun kill people too, and normal people shouldn't have any of those guns in their homes, where the five-year-old can get hold of them and kill his daddy for fun. I wasn't on about the particular gun, but about the framing of the terms.

Won't work in America.  Owning a firearm is a constitutional right.  While some types of guns can be regulated (it's illegal to own a machine gun, for example) banning all guns would be an extremely difficult endeavor that would probably be struck down by the Supreme Court in the end.

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

 The culture - all cultures - has/have been permeated by violence for millennia, by one means of communication or another. Public executions by fire, guillotine, impalement or drawing and quartering have always been popular entertainment. Good luck trying to regulate content on the internet! 

Regulating content wouldn be as easy or easier than regulating guns in America.  

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

What happens on the stroke of 21 to turn sociopaths, wingnuts and assholes into good citizens? Over 21, they just become more efficient at killing: an adult mass shooter acting in cold blood is a lot more dangerous than a teenage hothead. . https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/vio.2018.0021

Personally I would be in favor of mandatory psychological checks to get a 2 year permit to own a gun.  Every two years the license must be renewed after another mandatory visit to the psychologist.

The problem is such a measure would probably be struck down in court as unconstitutional. 

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

Home schooling may be lonely, but it sounds less soul-destroying for the children than being forced to enter a fortress every morning.

I'm not talking about guard towers and barbed wire fences.  Bullet proof security doors and windows, fully trained staff who keep the building secure from unauthorized intruders.  These are things that would not have to interrupt the fun environment happening inside.  Many options here.  

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

That part's easy. Okay, not so much easy, given the first amendment, but the mainstream press are already up against the paywall, so they can be intimidated. Except FUX broadcasting, maybe. And Sinclair. But what about the non-mainstream sources of public information?

 

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

Sure... also kidney transplants and long-term care for chronic illness.... Whenever universal health care kicks in.

Easier to get a consensus on mental health legislation before universal heath case.  Step by step.

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

None of that regulation can happen without a huge electoral and legislative reform. And I don't see the wealth and power and fearless popular support to bring that about.  

On this timeline we're looking at 50-75 years before any meaningful systemic change takes effect.  We should be looking at measures that can be implemented right now.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Alex_Krycek

[John Cuthber]

2 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Won't work in America.  Owning a firearm is a constitutional right.

Only by amendment.

Amendments can be revoked.
And the constitution can be amended.

Pretending that the constitution is Holy writ is one of America's problems here.

[Alex_Krycek]

14 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Only by amendment.

Amendments can be revoked.
And the constitution can be amended.

Pretending that the constitution is Holy writ is one of America's problems here.

True but...

"The Constitution provides that an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures.  

archives.gov/federal-register/constitution

I don't think these requirements are realistic when we're talking about rescinding the second amendment.

Also there would likely be a civil war from the far right...but that's another story.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Alex_Krycek

[Sensei]

1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

Only by amendment.

Amendments can be revoked.
And the constitution can be amended.

Pretending that the constitution is Holy writ is one of America's problems here.

You sound like Donald T. and V.P. ...

(they too dream, wish, initiate change for their will)

Make an amendment that the president is Jesus

It will be easier (at least you won't waste time and money voting)

 

  

3 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Owning a firearm is a constitutional right. 

...another remnant from the distant past... originated in the days when firearms fired one shot per minute or less.... so basically one person could shoot one person at a time and run away..

 

So... if I create laser pistol, laser "rifle", or whatever, which is not "firearm"... can have it?

(just kidding, nobody would believe I have laser rifle)

(don't have to break in my house, it's not here.. keep it in a safe place! )

 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Sensei

[iNow]

7 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Address the fixation on violence and control in the media (movies / TV / video games). 

I had no idea other countries who aren't facing this same problem lacked access to violence in movies, tv, and video games. 

7 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Schools are the number one soft target for this kind of terrorism.  Schools should be impenetrable fortresses to anyone without security clearance

Except the kids going to these schools are often the ones doing the shooting. I'm not saying security cannot be further improved, just highlighting that it's a mistake to assume the shooters are all people who are not supposed to be there. 

7 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Make it illegal for the media to report the assailant's name and identity.

Even if you did, it would still be live streamed on social media. This idea may have helped in a long forgotten past, but in the modern information environment it's equivalent to a band-aid on compound fracture. 

7 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Significantly increase mental health counseling / services for young people.

I definitely support this, but once more am surprised to learn that other countries who aren't facing this same problem lack issues with mental health in young people and to hear that all children outside the US are psychologically perfect. 

5 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

I would be in favor of mandatory psychological checks to get a 2 year permit to own a gun.  Every two years the license must be renewed after another mandatory visit to the psychologist.

Agreed, also a skills assessment around firearm safety and use would help. 

5 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

I'm not talking about guard towers and barbed wire fences.  Bullet proof security doors and windows, fully trained staff who keep the building secure from unauthorized intruders.

This Texas school had such staff. This is a bit like taking our shoes off at the airport. Feels like it helps, but really doesn't do much beyond change our feelings. 

3 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

I don't think these requirements are realistic when we're talking about rescinding the second amendment.

Also there would likely be a civil war from the far right...but that's another story.

Once again, we agree, and it's important to note that the people opposed to such changes are the ones who have the most firearms and the largest cache of ammunition. 

Don’t children in Japan engage far more with violent movies and video games than US children? Gosh… US genetics must just predispose us to an orders of magnitude higher risk of mental illness.  There’s simply NO OTHER plausible explanation for stats like this…. NONE!

[Phi for All]

8 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

5.  Significantly increase mental health counseling / services for young people. With the exception of the Las Vegas shooter, it seems that young people predominantly commit this particular type of atrocity.  There should be a place for them to get help free of charge.  The barriers around mental health treatment must come down.

While I agree with this part of your solution, I think this may be the real fear at the heart of the matter, what gun owners are most anxious about. A focus on mental health evaluation is quite likely to determine that people who are obsessive about owning hundreds of guns are mentally ill, just like those who hoard money they'll never be able to spend in their lifetimes, or people who lie after gaining a position of trust, or those who refuse to help people gain access to medicine, or those who judge others by the color of their skin. If they're paranoid about the government coming after their guns, they're probably more paranoid about their obsessions coming under scrutiny.

[TheVat]

9 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

The focus on the "military-style assault weapons" is a red herring, in my opinion.  The AR-15 is just a standard semi automatic rifle when it comes down to it (glorified to look cool for the gun nerds).  There are actually considerably higher caliber rifles available such as the Army's new MCX Spear which are now available on the commercial market.  The constant focus on banning the AR-15 is a non-sequitur and would be drop in the ocean in terms of actual prevention.

This mischaracterizes the ban proposals out there, which generally are category bans and not just the AR-15.  Four of the five worst mass shootings were done with assault style weapons.  Not really an ocean "drop."  Even reducing such weapons and the high capacity magazines that are popular with mass shooters would save lives and would not cramp the style of any hunter I've met (and I live deep in Red State country, with many hunters).  Australia took this approach, and also removed many already purchased weapons through buyback programs.  Its mass shootings dropped to zero for many years (the zero broken only by a family murder/suicide that technically qualified).  And yet, somehow, Australia still has a well-regulated military and has not been overrun by radical commies.

As the oft-reprinted Onion headline put it:

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

As for longterm solutions, sure, maybe we can fix youthful alienation, isolation, paranoia, violent acting out, impulsivity, and the entire dark side of human nature.  While we're waiting, we could pass those long centuries having reasonable restrictions of citizen ownership of killing machines.  And perhaps do so based on reason and evidence, not on what seemed applicable in 1787.  Amendments can be rescinded, as the 18th was, they are not holy writ.  And they are constantly being interpreted for the express purpose of applying them to the RW of the 21st century.  That's why the Framers set up the possibilities of doing so.

 

 

Also worth noting that mental health solutions tend to hinge on troubled persons seeking help.  It appears, from the hundreds of cases now available to us for study, that rage-filled loners don't seek out help of that type.  

Seems likely we'd have to drill down to deeper socioeconomic causes that generate neglectful and/or abusive parents and resulting rage-filled loners in the first place.  And I'm guessing that might be expensive.  And usually we reserve high-budget expenditures for keeping Afghanistan safe for the Taliban or rooting out imaginary yellow cake uranium in Iraq or maintaining nuclear arsenals that cannot ever be used because all life on Earth would be annihilated.  

 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by TheVat
Adds

[Peterkin]

7 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Won't work in America.  Owning a firearm is a constitutional right

No kidding! It wasn't a suggestion. It was a comment on the terminology "responsible gun ownership."

7 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Regulating content wouldn be as easy or easier than regulating guns in America.

Agreed. How's it working out, so far?

7 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

I'm not talking about guard towers and barbed wire fences.  Bullet proof security doors and windows, fully trained staff who keep the building secure from unauthorized intruders.  These are things that would not have to interrupt the fun environment happening inside.  Many options here.  

Right. No problem finding the money to bullet-proof a hundred thousand largish buildings. And I'm sure the children can have just as much fun in recycled fortress air as they would outdoors. But I suspect teachers already have more job description than would allow for a full course in combat training, and you may have trouble finding the money for extra pay. (Actually, I'm surprised there are any teachers still working in US public schools. They must be as dedicated as nurses -- but I doubt most of them up for prison guard duty.)

7 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Easier to get a consensus on mental health legislation before universal heath case.

By all means! I'm all for it.

7 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

On this timeline we're looking at 50-75 years before any meaningful systemic change takes effect. 

Especially as the current trend is going in the opposite direction. Who's kidding whom? There is no 10-year agenda, never mind 70. 

 

7 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

We should be looking at measures that can be implemented right now.

Of course. Absolutely.  

2 hours ago, iNow said:

I definitely support this, but once more am surprised to learn that other countries who aren't facing this same problem lack issues with mental health in young people and to hear that all children outside the US are psychologically perfect. 

Maybe not perfect, but you're likely to find that they all have better overall health-care system and better access to counselling for troubled youth.

[John Cuthber]

5 hours ago, Sensei said:

You sound like Donald T. and V.P

In what way?

 

5 hours ago, Sensei said:

(they too dream, wish, initiate change for their will)

Make an amendment that the president is Jesus

It will be easier (at least you won't waste time and money voting)

 

The bits of that which made any sense seemed to be saying that the best approach is defeatism.

[zapatos]

9 hours ago, Peterkin said:

None of that regulation can happen without a huge electoral and legislative reform. And I don't see the wealth and power and fearless popular support to bring that about.  

Sounds like you are throwing in the towel. Are you just giving up or do you have any suggestions?

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

Agreed, also a skills assessment around firearm safety and use would help. 

One measure that actually might just squeak past legislatures is a license like the one you get for driving, where you have to pass an operator's proficiency test. Of course, people deliberately kill other people with cars, too, so level of skill doesn't always translate to public safety. But it might prevent some of the accidental shootings.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Peterkin
left out words

[zapatos]

8 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

(it's illegal to own a machine gun, for example)

Well, it is more regulated than a handgun. Certainly not illegal.

[Peterkin]

5 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Are you just giving up or do you have any suggestions?

Giving up. Actually, it's nothing to do with me, except for the increasing spillover that's been affecting our big cities, so it would be presumptous of me to make any suggestions.

But there have been lots of suggestions and proposals and initiatives over the years from sensible, honest Americans  in positions far better placed to implement those suggestions - to little avail.

I don't see any hope in bandaiding : gun violence is just one dramatic symptom of profound systemic malaise (In cinematic terms: the sudden spontaneous nose-bleed that signals an outbreak of plague.)  The young Democratic firebrands know exactly what needs to be done. The question is whether they can build a big enough popular landslide to get it done.

before their conservative counterparts do.