Gun control, which side wins?

[iNow]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Sure it does.
If you diarm the other side, I don't need a gun to protect myself.

Is it possible you’ve misunderstood the meaning / usage of “unilateral disarmament?”

[MigL]

25 minutes ago, iNow said:

Is it possible you’ve misunderstood the meaning / usage of “unilateral disarmament?”

Not at all.
The 'other side' is one side.
People who feel they need to arm themselves for protection, are the other.

[Alex_Krycek]

10 hours ago, Phi for All said:

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf

From 2007-2011, people defended themselves with a gun in nearly .9% of crimes. This shows that you only have a slight chance to do something right with your gun, as opposed to the astronomically increased chances of doing something wrong. How do you justify the heavy risks of constant carry for the benefit of having a gun in the rare instance you might need it? 

Ironically this is the same argument the gun crowd uses to justify no change:  "There is an infinitesimal chance of being killed in a mass shooting so its illogical to do anything about it."

 

[StringJunky]

7 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Ironically this is the same argument the gun crowd uses to justify no change:  "There is an infinitesimal chance of being killed in a mass shooting so its illogical to do anything about it."

 

But there's plenty of other accidental and premeditated scenarios for lethal and injurious things to happen whilst in possession, which are not an infinitesimal risk.

Edited June 2, 2022 by StringJunky

[iNow]

Every 13 minutes, someone is killed with a gun… just in Oklahoma, one of our 49 states who had their own mass shooting in the last day. 

[StringJunky]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

Every 13 minutes, someone is killed with a gun… just in Oklahoma, one of our 49 states who had their own mass shooting in the last day. 

I just read somewhere that some staff will be armed in schools, but what if one of those has a psychotic and murderous episode...?   Remember after 911, pilots cabins were lockable from the inside and an airline pilot locked it and crashed into a mountain? The devil is potentially in us all and the pro-gun self defence lobby seem to fail to realize or acknowledge that. It's not dangerous career criminals that are causing the massacres, it's ordinary people with  severe mental issues. To a man, none of the perpetrators I've seen of these atrocities look like they are a member of MS13, who only actually seem to do the small stuff; a rival gang member here or there. The typical armed American citizen  is not trained or equipped to deal with either. They've been watching too many movies.

Edited June 3, 2022 by StringJunky

[iNow]

P1: We have a serious problem with gun violence in this country. More children die from guns than from car accidents.

P2: Hmm. Have you tired solving it by selling more guns to more people, and ensuring the people closest to those kids also have guns?

P1: Hot damn, you’re right! Why didn’t I think if that!?!

[StringJunky]

48 minutes ago, iNow said:

P1: We have a serious problem with gun violence in this country. More children die from guns than from car accidents.

P2: Hmm. Have you tired solving it by selling more guns to more people, and ensuring the people closest to those kids also have guns?

P1: Hot damn, you’re right! Why didn’t I think if that!?!

Serious  mental gymnastics going on. The lunatics are not the psychiatric cases. IIRC a person is killed by a gun every two weeks in the UK, and that might include Police Armed Response numbers as well.  We have about 100 hospital admissions from knife crime a week plus the ones that don't get recorded. I think it would be fair to say that if guns were available to those offenders we'd have a death rate similar to the US per capita. It's not that we are any less violent. We have pretty much the same level of violent offending per capita, I would guess. It's pretty clear that our gun laws are preventing massacres.... you can't really kill 20 people with a knife in rapid succession before someone takes you on.

Edited June 3, 2022 by StringJunky

[CharonY]

I also recall a case where an armed guard subdued a shooter and then got shot by the arriving police.  

 

[StringJunky]

23 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I also recall a case where an armed guard subdued a shooter and then got shot by the arriving police.  

 

The trouble is goodies and baddies look the same. If the goodies don't have guns, it makes the armed policeman's job a lot easier to differentiate.

[CharonY]

23 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

The trouble is goodies and baddies look the same. If the goodies don't have guns, it makes the armed policeman's job a lot easier to differentiate.

Also, at this point I would not be surprised if the guard was black. Under stress racial biases (and training) take over the rational part exacerbating such errors.

[StringJunky]

39 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Also, at this point I would not be surprised if the guard was black. Under stress racial biases (and training) take over the rational part exacerbating such errors.

That would be beyond the pale to automatically think that a non-white person is automatically the villain.

[Phi for All]

9 hours ago, CharonY said:

I also recall a case where an armed guard subdued a shooter and then got shot by the arriving police.  

Something similar happened in my city, in an area I frequent regularly. Someone with a beef shot a policeman, then a "hero" pulled out his own gun and shot that guy, then a responding police officer shows up and shoots the guy with the gun standing over two dead people. 

[CharonY]

8 hours ago, StringJunky said:

That would be beyond the pale to automatically think that a non-white person is automatically the villain.

Unfortunately there are a bunch of studies out there showing that police officers are more likely and faster to shoot black folks. This is not only happening in the field, but also during tests when black or white targets are presented. Racial bias is also not uncommon among law enforcement.

There was also the issue that in somec areas  during training officers were presented with black targets to shoot at.

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Unfortunately there are a bunch of studies out there showing that police officers are more likely and faster to shoot black folks. This is not only happening in the field, but also during tests when black or white targets are presented. Racial bias is also not uncommon among law enforcement.

There was also the issue that in somec areas  during training officers were presented with black targets to shoot at.

I've seen that research, and it seems to overlap with studies showing that police also tend to shoot more at the mentally ill (unarmed).  Another interaction where unreasoning fears and bias can take over.  Older black males with mental illness are the highest risk group, in police interactions.

The "black targets" thing is less clear in its significance, since many firing ranges present human targets as blank silhouettes, which are black but not because of any racial representation.  

(And a chuckle at @StringJunky for "beyond the pale")

And today I'm an organism!

[MigL]

6 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Someone with a beef shot a policeman, then a "hero" pulled out his own gun and shot that guy, then a responding police officer shows up and shoots the guy with the gun standing over two dead people. 

I can see that happening to 'armed teachers' at the next ( coming soon ) school shooting.

[CharonY]

8 hours ago, TheVat said:

I've seen that research, and it seems to overlap with studies showing that police also tend to shoot more at the mentally ill (unarmed).  Another interaction where unreasoning fears and bias can take over.  Older black males with mental illness are the highest risk group, in police interactions.

The "black targets" thing is less clear in its significance, since many firing ranges present human targets as blank silhouettes, which are black but not because of any racial representation.  

(And a chuckle at @StringJunky for "beyond the pale")

And today I'm an organism!

I actually was thinking of (isolated) news reports where in some areas actual mugshots or photos of black men were used. But I do recall that some also criticized black silhouette targets, but I don't think I have seen any studies whether that has any impact.

[Alex_Krycek]

23 hours ago, StringJunky said:

The trouble is goodies and baddies look the same. If the goodies don't have guns, it makes the armed policeman's job a lot easier to differentiate.

It also makes the baddies job a lot easier when attacking the goodies. 

[MigL]

1 minute ago, Alex_Krycek said:

23 hours ago, StringJunky said:

The trouble is goodies and baddies look the same. If the goodies don't have guns, it makes the armed policeman's job a lot easier to differentiate.

It also makes the baddies job a lot easier when attacking the goodies. 

And if neither has guns, easier still.

[StringJunky]

42 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

It also makes the baddies job a lot easier when attacking the goodies. 

You are assuming the goodies have the presence of mind and training to deal with the baddie in a tense situation. I don't believe a typical gun owner is equipped mentally to deal with it. It's a recipe for the innocent person to get killed. Outside of that remote encounter there's a umpteen other ways for that  gun to cause harm to someone else or to themselves, which are more likely. Also that goodie could turn into a baddie should something cause them to become stressed enough. If it's to hand in such a scenario it will probably be used because it is so intuitive and easy to use. Impulsion and firearms are like matches and petrol.

Edited June 4, 2022 by StringJunky

[Sensei]

I've said this before, but since mortals' memory is pretty poor, so I'll repeat it:

 

The problem is not with people with mental health problems,

The problem does not lie with people with right-wing beliefs,

(dunno why) they want to carry gun, carry machine guns.. (maybe they want to piss me off)

 

The problem is that industry, lobbies and shareholders are behind them....

 

Buy them back and shoot them down... change profile....

 

Let them produce something useful for society....

 

 

[dimreepr]

4 hours ago, Sensei said:

I've said this before, but since mortals' memory is pretty poor, so I'll repeat it:

 

The problem is not with people with mental health problems,

The problem does not lie with people with right-wing beliefs,

(dunno why) they want to carry gun, carry machine guns.. (maybe they want to piss me off)

 

The problem is that industry, lobbies and shareholders are behind them....

 

Buy them back and shoot them down... change profile....

 

Let them produce something useful for society....

 

 

The problem is, the only viable argument (for a civilian in a world of supermarkets) for having a gun is, in the words of Jim Jefferies, "fuck off, I like guns".

So the real problem is, America has failed to educate it's populous well enough, to tell the difference between a reason and an excuse.

[Sensei]

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

The problem is, the only viable argument (for a civilian in a world of supermarkets) for having a gun is, in the words of Jim Jefferies, "fuck off, I like guns".

So the real problem is, America has failed to educate it's populous well enough, to tell the difference between a reason and an excuse.

It's capitalism! Gun industry owner teaches kids to use/own the things he makes they make young and easy for brainwash..

 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Sensei

[Phi for All]

5 hours ago, Sensei said:

The problem does not lie with people with right-wing beliefs,

I agree that capitalism has a big part to play, but I do think modern conservatism is also to blame. People who identify as all conservative tend to want a system that separates the deserving from the non-deserving. They want laws that supposedly apply to all, but are only enforced on the non-deserving. They want benefits that the non-deserving don't get. They want their guns and the ways they use them to be protected while the non-deserving have their guns taken away and are thrown in jail. I think right-wing beliefs are definitely part of the problem.

[CharonY]

I think that this a very US-conservative view, though. While it is exported increasingly (Canada gets a fair bit of it) and others have high similarity in other aspects of it (who the deserving ones are, for example), gun attitudes are special in the US.