Gun control, which side wins?

[StringJunky]

31 minutes ago, zapatos said:

It's happened before.

https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-support-mulford-act

They could try that again,  in black areas in conservative-controlled districts where gun-nuts are clamouring for open-carry. Loan every black American a Colt 45 and holster. Gun control may well become top of the NRA/ Republican agenda again.   I'm not kidding, I reckon they'd do a 180 pronto.

Edited June 10, 2022 by StringJunky

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

They could try that again,  in black areas in conservative-controlled districts where gun-nuts are clamouring for open-carry. Loan every black American a Colt 45 and holster. Gun control may well become top of the NRA/ Republican agenda again.   I'm not kidding, I reckon they'd do a 180 pronto.

More likely is that they'll endorse more police shootings. After all, a black person (kid or not) cannot play with a toy gun without risk of getting shot by police.

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 hours ago, TheVat said:

Nope.  It's pretty much the Far Right.    

Unless you are talking about the far right in some other country...

Yep.

(note how cheap and easy that was)

[Phi for All]

8 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Unless you are talking about the far right in some other country...

Yep.

(note how cheap and easy that was)

I get it, word games, OK. All Americans are conservative comparatively, right? Except we're not.

The Republicans who identify as conservative in the US are signaling that these school shooters have every right to prepare themselves for the mass murder of children. It's ALL on the Republicans, because those with brains have been pushing for common sense gun responsibility measures for a long time. The majority want these measures to stop the pointless killing, and the Republicans obviously believe strongly that killing certain Americans was the point all along.

https://maristpoll.marist.edu/polls/npr-pbs-newshour-marist-national-poll-gun-violence-in-the-united-states-june-2022/

92% of Democrats and 54% of Independents believe gun control is more important than gun rights. Only 20% of Republicans feel that way. 

[MigL]

And yet another safety consideration becomes politicised.
Vaccination, to save people's lives, became a Republican vs Democrat issue.
Gun control, which would save kid's lives, and allow people to walk the streets unafraid, is a political issue of Republican vs Democrat ideology.

It seems the problem is not the vaccines or gun control, but the stubborness of Americans to 'stick' to an ideology, even when so many lives are lost, and simply looking to place blame on the opposite side instead of looking for solutions/compromise to begin changing things.

Republicans blame Democrats for being soft on crime and wanting to get rid of police so they need to be armed to protect themselves.
Democrats blame Republicans foor opposing gun control legislation and allowing kids to be killed in weekly school massacres.

Nobody blames the number of available guns in the US ( 400 million, with only a million registered ), that makes policing so dangerous, and contributes to the 'shoot first, ask questions later' mentality of cops in the US. Or the gun sales to kids themselves, or the losers/ misfits of society who cannot get laid, and think the solution is to massacre others. Or the mentally ill who still need protection from all their 'imagined' tormentors/wrong doers.  Or the easy availability of 30 round clips, that can be fired off in less than a minute, ostensibly for 'target practice' or 'hunting'. Etc Etc.

When does the madness stop ?
When all your elected politicians say to the NRA " Take your political lobbyists and contributions, and fuck off"
Everyone is up in arms when we lose kids to the war in Afghanistan, but turn a blind eye to the larger number of people lost to gun violence over those same 20 years.

[zapatos]

5 minutes ago, MigL said:

Nobody blames the number of available guns in the US ( 400 million, with only a million registered ), that makes policing so dangerous, and contributes to the 'shoot first, ask questions later' mentality of cops in the US. Or the gun sales to kids themselves, or the losers/ misfits of society who cannot get laid, and think the solution is to massacre others. Or the mentally ill who still need protection from all their 'imagined' tormentors/wrong doers.  Or the easy availability of 30 round clips, that can be fired off in less than a minute, ostensibly for 'target practice' or 'hunting'. Etc Etc.

I think you are mistaken about this claim. These are exactly the types of problems the Democrats are trying to address through legislation.

9 minutes ago, MigL said:

Everyone is up in arms when we lose kids to the war in Afghanistan, but turn a blind eye to the larger number of people lost to gun violence over those same 20 years.

Again, this is simply not true as has been pointed out time and again over the last 16 pages.

[Phi for All]

6 minutes ago, MigL said:

Nobody blames the number of available guns in the US ( 400 million, with only a million registered ), that makes policing so dangerous, and contributes to the 'shoot first, ask questions later' mentality of cops in the US.

Are you serious, seriously?! That was the first blame. The second blame goes against those who stand steadfast blocking legislation to address the first blame. This should be obvious.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Republicans blame Democrats for being soft on crime and wanting to get rid of police so they need to be armed to protect themselves.

Crime is a proxy for race in most GOP elections. Urban and inner city are similar.

They speak of crime and how they’re the party of crime prevention all while supporting criminals in their ranks. Abusers and pedophiles. Harassers. Crooks. Thrives. Liars. Criminals with white collars and with blue. They punish private businesses and free enterprises for expressing their free speech. They even support obvious insurrectionists who (go figure) are the undisputed leader of their party trying to overthrow free and fair elections and actively working to subvert the constitution itself. 

Republicans aren’t tough on crime, they’re welcoming of it. They just gaslight us about it at every chance they get bc they know it plays well with those who are paying only peripheral attention. 

Edited June 10, 2022 by iNow

[MigL]

I see.
It's obviously easy to find blame and point fingers, but extremely hard to actually do anything to better the situation ?

Status quo then, I guess.

Edited June 10, 2022 by MigL

[iNow]

34 minutes ago, MigL said:

I see.
It's obviously easy to find blame and point fingers, but extremely hard to actually do anything to better the situation ?

I vote. I call and write to those who win. I actively advocate and work to gather support wherever I can. About the only thing I haven’t done is run for office myself, mostly bc it would cost a lot of money, a lot of integrity, and I would lose.

What more do you have in mind? 

[Phi for All]

35 minutes ago, MigL said:

I see.
It's obviously easy to find blame and point fingers, but extremely hard to actually do anything to better the situation ?

Status quo then, I guess.

Not sure what you mean. I point my finger at the GOP leadership that's been protecting a toxic system of oppression in my country for decades, and I vote against them, and try to reason with others to do the same.

[MigL]

Taking into consideration my never being married, I have to ask ...

When you guys have a disagreement with your wives, do you say"This is the way it's going to be. And the reason it hasn't been OK till now, is all your fault."
Or do you try to find a compromise solution, and move forward ?

Are you guys not realizing that Republicans and Democrats are 'married', and both part of your country ? The situation will never get better if you guys continue hating each other.
You tried divorce once, it was not amicable;  only the undertakers ( not lawyers ) got rich during the Civil War.

[Phi for All]

4 minutes ago, MigL said:

Are you guys not realizing that Republicans and Democrats are 'married', and both part of your country ? The situation will never get better if you guys continue hating each other.
You tried divorce once, it was not amicable;  only the undertakers ( not lawyers ) got rich during the Civil War.

The Democratic President thinks you're right, and the Republicans kick him in the teeth every day to show him how wrong he is. GOPFOX propaganda aims to stymie anything everything that's trying to change the system.

I think your POV is wrong because you still think the Republican leadership is interested in working together. Isn't it clear that the system is working for them, that this is EXACTLY what they've worked so hard for? Military/prison/industrial complex mentality won't let go of the guns until we have leaders who want government regulation, and Republicans won't let go of "small government" misconceptions. 

 

[iNow]

25 minutes ago, MigL said:

Are you guys not realizing that Republicans and Democrats are 'married', and both part of your country ? The situation will never get better if you guys continue hating each other.

Unfortunately, one spouse keeps cheating (and I mean that with all of its various meanings) and calling their partner a whore. 

[CharonY]

52 minutes ago, MigL said:

Taking into consideration my never being married, I have to ask ...

When you guys have a disagreement with your wives, do you say"This is the way it's going to be. And the reason it hasn't been OK till now, is all your fault."
Or do you try to find a compromise solution, and move forward ?

Are you guys not realizing that Republicans and Democrats are 'married', and both part of your country ? The situation will never get better if you guys continue hating each other.
You tried divorce once, it was not amicable;  only the undertakers ( not lawyers ) got rich during the Civil War.

You can call it bias all day long, but it has become clear that the GOP as a whole has abandoned reality and has been successfully using this tactic to create a devoted cores set of voters. Rational Republicans have been marginalized. They generally only go against the party when they are not facing re-election (as also shown with the recent bill on gun contol, which will die in the senate). 

The big issue really is that this tactic has been so successful that it basically removes any kind of responsibility. Folks that have been on record condemning the resurrection now suddenly have to lie that they did, just to get in the good graces of their voters. I am not sure how you can compromise with someone who is willing to reverse themselves on some very basic facts that they admitted to before? If some deranged youtube video is considered to be equally valid as careful research, what is the middle ground? 

I mean, I am happy not to be part of this political system, but I do wonder how fast it is leaking (or is already present, see Hungary) elsewhere.

 

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

When you guys have a disagreement with your wives, do you say"This is the way it's going to be. And the reason it hasn't been OK till now, is all your fault."
Or do you try to find a compromise solution, and move forward ?

The trend with the GOP for the last several years has been to discourage compromise. In 2017, only 46% of Republicans polled like officials who compromise, while 69% of Democrats prefer them. This is part of the obstructionism that's been mentioned repeatedly.

Most Republicans see Democrats as enemies rather than as political opposition (57%). Trump is the leader of the party, and his supporters clearly embrace anti-democratic ideals. How do you compromise with people who want the state to fail so they can replace it with...?

[J.C.MacSwell]

8 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I get it, word games, OK. All Americans are conservative comparatively, right? Except we're not.

 

If you think that was the point then no, you don't get it.

To be blunt...I wasn't taking a shot at all Americans, I was mocking your polarizing methodology...which at best gets you votes...but at worst ensures little progress gets made.

9 hours ago, Phi for All said:

 

92% of Democrats and 54% of Independents believe gun control is more important than gun rights. Only 20% of Republicans feel that way. 

Not exactly sure what was asked, but if true you already have 94 percent of Democrats, 54 percent of independents, and 20 percent of Republicans likely onside, and perhaps many others open to being convinced if you make rational arguments and don't scare them all off with your BS.

So get it done. Even if you have to compromise a bit. You don't get a pass just for insisting you're right.

Or just get out of the way and let a new moderate party take over.

[TheVat]

wow

I don't think our Molson's chugging friends to the north quite realize that our Democratic Party is, by the standards of pretty much every other democratic nation on Earth, quite moderate.  And has been trying to find compromise every way possible with a GOP that has moved far to the Right and now snuggles with white nationalists and Christian theocrats and bizarro science deniers.  And their undertow pulls along others who should know better.  Due to our flawed electoral college system, and the deeply skewed Senate (where in a few short years, the most conservative 30% of our populace will have 70% of the Senate), and a ton of gerrymandering, a minority has hijacked the political process and has little interest in real conversation about issues or compromise.  FFS, we are just trying to survive as a democracy at this point.  And so many of us are straining to reach out to conservatives, try to find some way to shift in their direction without abandoning whole demographics at risk, struggling to have some kind of rational fact based dialog with them that has some anchoring in the reality of the 21st century.  

Outside of a few places like Boston, Seattle, or San Francisco, I don't think you find that many liberals who are loftily proclaiming their wisdom and rightness or are not willing to compromise.  You really have to know compromise is all we do these days.  I had to vote for Biden who, in any other recent decade, would have been seen as centrist, and has not had a career I would call terribly progressive.  My vote was a compromise, as were many others' votes.  And anyone I vote for in South Dakota is a compromise (and I think other Red Staters would likely say the same).  

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by TheVat
Topo

[J.C.MacSwell]

23 hours ago, TheVat said:

Nope.  It's pretty much the Far Right.   I'm American and mos def did not have any part in allowing this madness.  In fact I've marched in a demonstration against lax gun laws and received insults and taunts from conservative bullies riding up and down past the marchers all along the route. 

To be fair, I only took exception to the nope. Phi said conservatives (truth to it but attacking conservatives more than the actual thinking behind the gun laws he suggests 80 percent of conservatives, 46 percent of independents, and 8 percent of democrats support). I said Americans (more truth to it...do the math...but intentionally equally unhelpful...I guess no one got it...my bad, but I certainly don't regret the blunt clarification)

I have no doubt you held a reasonable gun control sign and might have lamented a few of the signs held on behalf of the same effort.

23 hours ago, TheVat said:

While exercising my first amendment freedom, they displayed zero respect for it, and made considerable effort to intimidate us with barely veiled threats.  (And THESE are the people whining about cancel culture??) At another demonstration (different theme) some of these same fine upstanding citizens shot at people with paintball guns.  

No. Those people are are at best ill advised and at worst PsOS.

Whining about cancel culture is pretty much everyone not busy virtue signalling.

+1 for the above post though. I would be frustrated as well on many fronts, and have held my nose while voting here more than once.

Edited June 11, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[iNow]

15 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I was mocking your polarizing methodology...which at best gets you votes...but at worst ensures little progress gets made.

It’s hard to disagree with this and I’m confident pretty much every here agrees, except for maybe the implicit suggestion that members posting here to this thread lack willingness to compromise… or vote for candidates specifically bc they refuse to compromise like we see so often in the MAGA crowd.

 

13 hours ago, TheVat said:

I don't think our Molson's chugging friends to the north quite realize that our Democratic Party is, by the standards of pretty much every other democratic nation on Earth, quite moderate.  And has been trying to find compromise every way possible with a GOP that has moved far to the Right and now snuggles with white nationalists and Christian theocrats and bizarro science deniers. 

I’m reminded of a political cartoon I saw a while back…

 

P1: Can I burn your house down?

P2: No.

P1: What about just the 2nd floor?

P2: No.

P1: Fine, okay… I’ll only burn your kitchen then.

P2: No.

P1: How about the porch and your back shed?

P2: No.

P1: You’re refusing to compromise!!! You’re the entire reason everyone hates politics!

 

Some of us who enjoy maple syrup a lot look at this and think P2 is the problem… after all, they aren’t compromising. Isn’t it obvious?!

Others of us, however, look at this in context and recognize that P1 is the problem bc they are being unreasonable with their demands and trying to burn things down. 

Would it be better if there weren’t ONLY two parties and not every square peg was shoehorned into round holes for every single issue in US politics? Yes!!! Abso-effing-lutely! Of COURSE that would be better, but it’s not at all a realistic option on the table from which we can choose right now in the moment.

It’s pie in the sky we can’t eat today… maybe in the future, but not in this instant. One may as well be saying pink unicorns would be better senators. It has roughly the same likelihood of being realized.

Politics is the art of the possible… We need to stop focusing on what’s not today possible and we need to stop laying the blame for the dysfunction at the feet of P2 who’s simply saying “No, you may NOT burn down my house. Let’s instead build new houses together with each other’s help.”

Edited June 11, 2022 by iNow

[TheVat]

The P1/P2 scenario illustrated well how compromise doesn't happen.  Some asks just aren't reasonable, or constitutional.  This is why abortion conversations implode all the time, for example.  ProChoice sees the woman's complete right to reproductive decisions as constitutionally enshrined - take away any pieces of that right and the other side is seen as trying to pick rooms to burn down.  And, with gun rights, it's one block of the conservatives that feels that way.  To channel the drama critic Addison DeWitt in "All About Eve," they have a point - an idiotic one, but a point.

And,  @J.C.MacSwell

I will try to reign in my "nopes" - I see your point.  And it's not idiotic.

[J.C.MacSwell]

P1: May I have a campfire if I'm careful and the risk of forest fire is low. 

P2: What are you? Some kind of arsonist? Do you have any idea of the costs of forest fires? Forest fires kill people, and unlike me, you are responsible for the many deaths!

On 6/9/2022 at 8:58 PM, Phi for All said:

Conservatives in the US are allowing shots to be taken at our children, FFS.

 

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

P2: What are you? Some kind of arsonist? Do you have any idea of the costs of forest fires? Forest fires kill people, and unlike me, you are responsible for the many deaths!

I see. And who with whom you’re here interacting directly in this thread is responding in that manner?

[J.C.MacSwell]

41 minutes ago, iNow said:

I see. And who with whom you’re here interacting directly in this thread is responding in that manner?

 

1 hour ago, iNow said:

I’m reminded of a political cartoon I saw a while back…

It's the basis for a political cartoon in some right wing publication you would never read. Brought to you by far right gaslighting, and supported by left wing overstatements.

[iNow]

I guess I don’t see after all.