Ten oz Posted February 22, 2018 Posted February 22, 2018 The President has suggested arming Teachers as a way to prevent future mass shootings. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-floats-bonuses-teachers-willing-carry-guns-class-n850281 Is this something that would work to prevent school shootings? What are the things schools can do to reduce the likelihood of on campus shootings?
John Cuthber Posted February 22, 2018 Posted February 22, 2018 Is that really a serious suggestion? 2
Ten oz Posted February 22, 2018 Author Posted February 22, 2018 @ John Cuthber police officers are armed and police officer have been still been attacked. That said it is something being suggested at the highest levels of government. So it is a real thing being considered I think the answer to the initial question of should they be armed is a NO. However the answer to the second question isn't as simple to answer. What can schools do?
rangerx Posted February 22, 2018 Posted February 22, 2018 The good guy with a gun thing has been debunked long ago. SWAT sees a teacher with a gun amid dead bodies, dead teacher. Even most strong gun advocates point out that issue as problematic.
John Cuthber Posted February 22, 2018 Posted February 22, 2018 29 minutes ago, Ten oz said: That said it is something being suggested at the highest levels of government ... by Trump...
CharonY Posted February 22, 2018 Posted February 22, 2018 Not to mention the enormous stress on the teacher. Also, there would likely be an attitude change. I mean teachers are supposed to take care of kids and educate them for ffs and not look out for potential dangers (among the same kids no less). Yeah, more guns is not going to be a solution and luckily it is not going to fly despite some endorsements.
iNow Posted February 22, 2018 Posted February 22, 2018 1 hour ago, John Cuthber said: Is that really a serious suggestion? After pretty much every single school shooting.
Ten oz Posted February 22, 2018 Author Posted February 22, 2018 1 hour ago, John Cuthber said: ... by Trump... He is the President. His office is the highest one in our govt. I am not happy about that but it is a the way it is. His suggestions can simply be ignored. Assuming the GOP move forward with trying to daft something I think it is best for those opposed to have alternatives. Considering school shooters nearly always use a weapon that was in their home it might be a good idea for school administrators to start keeping track of which students are in homes with firearms. Having firearms in a home does seem to a an identifiable risk factor.
iNow Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Ten oz said: Having firearms in a home does seem to a an identifiable risk factor. Yeah, but that’s a bit like saying having a car in my garage is an identifiable risk factor for vehicular homicide. Technically true, but functionally useless.
Phi for All Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 The first step was to teach the kids to run around and make a lot of noise if an armed assailant steps into the room with them. This buys everyone else a little more time, more time to escape, more time for first responders, and more spent ammo trying to hit moving targets. Arming the teachers is the next step in this strategy, since it will obviously sell a lot more guns, and the amount of ammunition used goes up considerably. Finally, they make small caliber guns, but the grips are still too big for children. Perhaps we could lobby for subsidies to incentivize arms manufacturers to make guns the kids themselves could carry comfortably. The main thing is we keep this important industry alive at any cost. Morally, once your right to life is observed at birth, we're under no obligation afterwards, right?
rangerx Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 13 minutes ago, Phi for All said: Morally, once your right to life is observed at birth, we're under no obligation afterwards, right? We could substitute the word school for uterus, so they'll advocate for whats inside them.
iNow Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Phi for All said: Morally, once your right to life is observed at birth, we're under no obligation afterwards, right? Edit: ranger beat me to it Edited February 23, 2018 by iNow
CharonY Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 Not really. They would just make sure that they are stuck in there until term. Complications are not necessarily covered.
Raider5678 Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 Boy, do I love these "Let's all rail on the far right and republicans" threads where we ask people a question we've already made our minds up on. They accomplish so much. Like complaining. And mocking. And definitely not getting shit done. -2
OldChemE Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 I came out of retirement to teach. Do I want to be armed? Absolutely no. Truth is, I have a gun permit and don't carry one anyway. I think the principal of our school has about the best advice of any. He told all of us that if we hear gunshots in the school we should do two things: (1) Pile everything we can think of in front of the classroom door and (2) toss the kids out the window and tell them to run. Above all-- he told us not to have the kids try to shelter under desks or wait for "proper authorities" to take action.
Raider5678 Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, OldChemE said: I came out of retirement to teach. Do I want to be armed? Absolutely no. Truth is, I have a gun permit and don't carry one anyway. I think the principal of our school has about the best advice of any. He told all of us that if we hear gunshots in the school we should do two things: (1) Pile everything we can think of in front of the classroom door and (2) toss the kids out the window and tell them to run. Above all-- he told us not to have the kids try to shelter under desks or wait for "proper authorities" to take action. In the event he was trying to break down the door, do you think it'd be possible to get into a position to shoot him as soon as he walked through? Just curious. Either way, in many of these cases the shooter was wearing body armor anyways. So it probably wouldn't kill them unless you got the head. That being said, it'd definitely take their breath away. Edited February 23, 2018 by Raider5678
StringJunky Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 4 hours ago, rangerx said: The good guy with a gun thing has been debunked long ago. SWAT sees a teacher with a gun amid dead bodies, dead teacher. Even most strong gun advocates point out that issue as problematic. They seem to forget good people can become unhinged people at any time. Arming more people just increases the likelihood of more deaths. Guns make killing more likely to happen because it's so easy to do.
Ten oz Posted February 23, 2018 Author Posted February 23, 2018 1 hour ago, iNow said: Yeah, but that’s a bit like saying having a car in my garage is an identifiable risk factor for vehicular homicide. Technically true, but functionally useless. Only about 40% of households have guns. Closer to 90% of households have a car. So it isn't quite as bad. Additionally it is a crime to let minors or those without a license to drive. It is common, in my experience, that parents inquire about who is driving or if someone is driving when school age kids get together. There is a known risk associated with young drivers. If such awareness could be created towards guns that would be great. Another risk factor seems to be fetish for taking photos wear tactical vest and holding firearms.
CharonY Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 There are a lot of issues with the good guy with a gun narrative (one of the many articles about it here). But also, since school shootings are rare in any given school, having a lot of firearms around is likely to increase the overall injury/death rate. I do think that it will difficult if our relationship with guns is framed exclusively in the framework of mass shootings. They are the most horrible manifestation of an issue. But they are actually only a tiny aspect, even if we only focus on kids. In the US ca. 1300 children die from gunshot wounds. Among high income countries 91% of all firearm deaths of children under 14 are in the USA. In all metrices related to firearm related deaths and in pretty much all groups the US is leading. And that is clearly an issue. Other countries, even those with high firearm prevalence do not put armed guards into schools, afaik many do not even have drills or specific warning mechanisms for school shooters. And yet they do not have that issue. Suggesting to arm teachers (i.e. have more folks with guns around) is, aside from the obvious lobbying from the NRA, shows a mentality devoid of ideas and stuck in an alternative movie-reality where violence is the only solution. 1
iNow Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Ten oz said: There is a known risk associated with young drivers. If such awareness could be created towards guns that would be great. Like I said, technically true, but functionally useless. Such an approach makes my 4 year old a likely shooter merely because she lives in a house with me and I happen to own guns.
Raider5678 Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 1 hour ago, StringJunky said: They seem to forget good people can become unhinged people at any time. Arming more people just increases the likelihood of more deaths. Guns make killing more likely to happen because it's so easy to do. I'm not sure good people just randomly become unhinged at any given moment, grab a gun, and go on a shooting spree. Or do you mean a stressed out person could snap at any moment, regardless if they're a good person or not?
iNow Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 27 minutes ago, Raider5678 said: I'm not sure good people just randomly become unhinged at any given moment, grab a gun, and go on a shooting spree. Your personal incredulity is irrelevant. It happens. Move on. 1
rangerx Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 1 hour ago, StringJunky said: They seem to forget good people can become unhinged people at any time. I totally agree. One bad investment, an unfaithful partner, a terrible accident, an unfair decision etc. are but a few of several reasons an otherwise law abiding and rational person can crack at any time.
CharonY Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 28 minutes ago, iNow said: Like I said, technically true, but functionally useless. Such an approach makes my 4 year old a likely shooter merely because she lives in a house with me and I happen to own guns. Yeah, the data is more correlated with self-injury risk (i.e. having a gun increases the likelihood of completed suicides) or accidental injury for example. But there is no quantifiable relationship between number of guns and shooting risk (as only a very small subset actually become active shooters).
rangerx Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, CharonY said: Yeah, the data is more correlated with self-injury risk (i.e. having a gun increases the likelihood of completed suicides) or accidental injury for example. But there is no quantifiable relationship between number of guns and shooting risk (as only a very small subset actually become active shooters). A fair point, however that very small subset can do an inordinate amount of damage, so long as military style weapons are readily available to them.
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