Arming Teachers

[Ten oz]

In the case of the Florida shooting there was already an armed guard on campus and they failed to stop the attack. Rather than acknowledging that as proof having guns on campus isn't the answer many are demagoguing the security guard for failing to act. Trump saying the security guard didn't "love" the students but teachers do. 

No one knows how they will respond to a horrific crisis. I feel a little sorry for the security guard. He didn't create the situation. He is just a normal person dropped into a extremely abnormal situation. A situation moat of those who are criticizing him have never been in. Rather than trashing the guy publicly it should be a useful example of why a good guy with a good is a fallacy. A reason to find other solutions. 

[dimreepr]

6 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

No one knows how they will respond to a horrific crisis. I feel a little sorry for the security guard. He didn't create the situation. He is just a normal person dropped into a extremely abnormal situation. A situation moat of those who are criticizing him have never been in. Rather than trashing the guy publicly it should be a useful example of why a good guy with a good is a fallacy. A reason to find other solutions. 

3

Since they're in a caring profession, I'm not sure they have the skills and bravery without skills may go horribly wrong, and speaking as a carer I'm not overly sure how much I have of either:

I think shits going down (basically shit myself), I stand with my back to the wall in my best Bond pose (literally shitting myself), I hear footsteps in the hall, OK 'gulp' deep breath close my eyes and charge all guns blazing... click, click, click... I open my eyes... Sorry headmaster I didn't get the memo, lucky I had my eyes closed, you could have been shot! 

[StringJunky]

27 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

In the case of the Florida shooting there was already an armed guard on campus and they failed to stop the attack. Rather than acknowledging that as proof having guns on campus isn't the answer many are demagoguing the security guard for failing to act. Trump saying the security guard didn't "love" the students but teachers do. 

No one knows how they will respond to a horrific crisis. I feel a little sorry for the security guard. He didn't create the situation. He is just a normal person dropped into a extremely abnormal situation. A situation moat of those who are criticizing him have never been in. Rather than trashing the guy publicly it should be a useful example of why a good guy with a good is a fallacy. A reason to find other solutions. 

I think it's utterly disgraceful the way Trump is talking about him. This guy is probably going to be affected for the rest of his life without that coming at him as well. I think his inaction illustrates what most people would do without the kind of stress-tolerance training that armed response units have. If an ordinary policeman acts likes that, what is a teacher going to do?

[interested]

Gun crime is not unique to the US, many other countries have had problems and they all have tightened gun control laws not supplied more guns. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-43072571/gun-control-how-countries-around-the-world-introduced-restrictions

Is it not about time the US changed its laws on gun control.

I understand you can can buy weapons from Walmart with no problem along with the rest of your house hold goods in the US. But Paracetamol are dangerous and you need a prescription from a doctor to buy them. 

Pharmaceutical companies and Doctors control the flow of drugs in America which could cause you harm if incorrectly used, but the control of guns is against US law and protected by Politicians who receive large funds if they support the lobby groups point of view. What kind of democracy is that.

Teachers have enough problems controlling teenagers. Is giving them the right to shoot one or two going to improve classroom behavior.

Perhaps I am being soft so flipping the coin and looking inside Trumps head  Shooting some lower performing or more disruptive children may improve the class room average performance. If they didnt hand homework in on time shoot the little fuckers. Conversely flipping the coin again if people are taught guns are good from a very early age, are they acceptable in otherwise developed societies. Is this why Trump and many in the US think guns are good, much of the world is insane led by democratically ? elected leaders.

[dimreepr]

Let me just re-balance the scales; even in England, not all guns are banned, if you really want them you just gotta behave... 

[interested]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Let me just re-balance the scales; even in England, not all guns are banned, if you really want them you just gotta behave... 

Yup if you want to kill pheasants in the UK with a gun you need a licence. However to there is no licence available in the UK for killing peasants who have been known to be revolting in the past, causing gentry with guns to shoot them also. 

Ironically you dont need a prescription for paracetamol which you could kill yourself with unlike the US.

The NRA have declared all available force should be used to protect American schools, does this also include the force of law and the ability to change it. Perhaps the NRA are above the law and prosecution because of political support? Just guessing 

Edited February 24, 2018 by interested

[John Cuthber]

58 minutes ago, interested said:

Ironically you dont need a prescription for paracetamol which you could kill yourself with unlike the US.

If you want to buy more than 8 grams of the stuff at a time you do need to convince a trained pharmacist that you have a legitimate need for it.

I think that's a control we have had in place longer than the US's ban on it.

An important distinction is that it's very hard to kill someone else with paracetamol, and a "killing  spree" is pretty much impossible.

[interested]

On 2/22/2018 at 7:59 PM, Ten oz said:

What can schools do? 

Perhaps if American law is going to be changed in the light of political opinion in American politics. Parents might think about sending their kids to school in bullet proof vests and anti stab jackets instead of with pack up lunches bibs and a packet crayons.

Self schooling has become popular in some parts of the world and seems effective at producing balanced individuals, perhaps self schooling might be safer in the US. Removing the schools that the NRA think are vulnerable targets to sell weapons to might move the problem from schools to shopping centres, sports grounds, concert arenas or any large collection of people any where in the states. 

If law does not change to curtail mentally deranged peoples ability to get weapons ie people that want to kill, then the US is stuck in a rut. 

3 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

If you want to buy more than 8 grams of the stuff at a time you do need to convince a trained pharmacist that you have a legitimate need for it.

I think that's a control we have had in place longer than the US's ban on it.

An important distinction is that it's very hard to kill someone else with paracetamol, and a "killing  spree" is pretty much impossible.

Yup but with paracetamol I dont have to take them all at once. Although as I am recovering from actual flu at the moment, not a cold 1000mg paracetamol cut the gripe for me. I had no arguments from the pharmacist, and they help. In the US I would need a appointment with a doctor and a prescription. The cost of which would most likely make me  want to die. It might be cheaper to go to Walmart and buy a gun to shoot myself. Packet of Antigripe paracetomol 8 euros 4 days suppy 

[Phi for All]

11 minutes ago, interested said:

Self schooling has become popular in some parts of the world and seems effective at producing balanced individuals, perhaps self schooling might be safer in the US.

This suggestion has the added conservative benefit of pushing private vouchers for education, so the public can pay for private schooling. If they can get scared parents to push for home school funding, the extremist capitalists can finally destroy public education entirely. Coupled with not having to restrict gun sales, it's a strategy that will appeal to many. I'm sure you'll see this suggestion being pushed by the far right, if it isn't already. 

[John Cuthber]

45 minutes ago, interested said:

seems effective at producing balanced individuals

Got any evidence for that?
It seems to me that learning to share + debate with your peers in school is a vital part of learning.

It also provides an understanding of other people and, at least  to a degree, other cultures.

[interested]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

This suggestion has the added conservative benefit of pushing private vouchers for education, so the public can pay for private schooling. If they can get scared parents to push for home school funding, the extremist capitalists can finally destroy public education entirely. Coupled with not having to restrict gun sales, it's a strategy that will appeal to many. I'm sure you'll see this suggestion being pushed by the far right, if it isn't already. 

I understand home schooling globally is typically funded by the parents not by governments. This is a completely separate topic from the OP

I think you may have missed my various points, all large gatherings of people are vulnerable to nutters with guns/explosives, if the guns/explosives are available. The solution I have been trying to infer is restricting the availabilty of guns in America in a similar way as to what has been implemented in the rest of the world via a change in the law. 

Why dont people walk down the street in America with sticks of Dynamite blowing each other up. Does a form of regulation apply to its use and distribution that could be applied to guns. 

 

48 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Got any evidence for that?
It seems to me that learning to share + debate with your peers in school is a vital part of learning.

It also provides an understanding of other people and, at least  to a degree, other cultures.

I think so, but since they are kids, and they can converse with adults who are there peers in a social environment on many subjects, I guess you will have to go and find some home schooled individuals to chat to and compare the conversation with the grunts you get from kids who are only used to conversing with kids who are not their peers and only know about the world round them. 

How you gain an understanding of the world depends on how much of it you have experienced, and who teaches you what to believe. This thread is about guns in schools, were you or anyone else ever taught guns are gooooood things to have. I note your location is England so I guess you may have shot some pheasants or clay pigeons perhaps with a shot gun but are unlikely to have had hold of a pistol or assault rifle unless you have been in the forces. 

I suggested earlier that the gun idea in the states is the result of education, ie was trump taught guns are goood and you get one like a car when you are a grown up as a right of passage.

Edit Ediitt

OH Big business in the US is now joining the battle against the NRA, they are cancelling discounts so that NRA members will have to pay the same as everyone else who is not a member of a lobby group in the US http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43181337

Edited February 24, 2018 by interested

[swansont]

47 minutes ago, interested said:

I understand home schooling globally is typically funded by the parents not by governments. This is a completely separate topic from the OP

Private schools. Not home schooling.

 

--------

 

On February 23, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Airbrush said:

Anyone know easy it is for a non-student to get onto a school campus, such as the Parkland FL school?  Why don't outsiders need to pass through a gate where an armed guard asks them what are they doing there if they are not a student?  Also, any "soft" target, such as a school, or a large shopping mall, or any large group of people, there should be limited access and exits so that anyone suspicious can be stopped for questioning.  There could be video cameras watching and recording the perimeter.  One guard watches the monitors while an armed guard patrols the perimeter.  Then after a few hours they trade places.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that this can be a serious question/proposal

1 hour ago, interested said:

Perhaps if American law is going to be changed in the light of political opinion in American politics. Parents might think about sending their kids to school in bullet proof vests and anti stab jackets instead of with pack up lunches bibs and a packet crayons.

This, as well. 

[interested]

47 minutes ago, interested said:

I understand home schooling globally is typically funded by the parents not by governments.

 

4 minutes ago, swansont said:

Private schools. Not home schooling.

Private schools are in general paid for mostly by parents/guardians but do gain subsidies from governments, home schooling does not gain government funding as far as I am aware, although guessing if home schoolers comply with government guidelines in some countries they may get some financial help. Some countries do not allow home schooling and it is against the law to keep children out of state school.

I am an engineer not a school teacher or an american so will comment no further on this subject.

  

29 minutes ago, swansont said:

This, as well. 

The power of editing is surreal, like my comment.  

[John Cuthber]

1 hour ago, interested said:

they are kids, and they can converse with adults who are there peers

Look up what peer means (also look up how to spell  their).

 

1 hour ago, interested said:

How you gain an understanding of the world depends on how much of it you have experienced, and who teaches you what to believe.

Home- schooling seriously limits that.

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that this can be a serious question/proposal

This, as well. 

It is a sad state of affairs that folks feel that they need to buy ballistic backpacks for their kids (their sales increase after every mass shooting). Heartbreaking, really.

[Suraj Sivaraja]

If teachers are armed, they would be able to protect students but at their own risk. I also think that since the security guard just stood outside the school in Florida instead of helping to stop the shooter, teachers won't be able to do much. In another scenario, the teachers themselves may be suffering from mental states that may cause them to turn on the students.

[Raider5678]

Considering Texas allows teachers to be armed, and the current predictions are that armed teachers will be snapping left and right, shooting all the students, is there any evidence to back this up? As in, has it happened in Texas or any other place that allows teachers to be armed?

Another prediction is that students will grab the guns and shoot other students, is there any evidence to say that's happened? As in has it happened before?

How does Texas compare in school shootings to other states?

 

[Strange]

3 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

the current predictions are that armed teachers will be snapping left and right, shooting all the students, is there any evidence to back this up?

Has anyone predicted that? Or is this a silly straw man.

4 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Another prediction is that students will grab the guns and shoot other students

Is it? Really?

Are you confusing "identifying possible risks" with "prediction"?

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, Strange said:

Are you confusing "identifying possible risks" with "prediction"?

 

Yes, I probably am.

But if it's not a prediction, then why does it matter?

There are a lot of things that are possible risks.

[swansont]

39 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

 the current predictions are that armed teachers will be snapping left and right, shooting all the students

Is such hyperbole really necessary?

[Raider5678]

3 minutes ago, swansont said:

Is such hyperbole really necessary?

No. But can you prove that the "possible risk" happens often enough to outweigh any potential benefits? 

Since we're identifying possible risks, surely we can identify possible benefits.

Teacher shoots an armed gunman.

There's a possible benefit. Let's say the estimated death toll would be 20 kids if the teacher wouldn't have shot the person, and this happened just once a year.

Then, to outweigh the benefit there would have to be around 20 kids killed by firearm incidents due to teachers being armed. Which, in my opinion, should be very easy to figure out if it's because of teachers being armed.

 

So, let's look at the evidence since this is a science forum.

 

As of now, there are 18 states that allow teachers to carry weapons if given permission by the school. California, Texas, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Massachutes, Kentucky, Alabama, Mississippi, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Hawaii, and Oregon. Nowhere are teachers forced to carry weapons, just for reference.

 

So, what are the statistics from these states on the number of kids killed on accident/purpose due to teachers being allowed to be armed?

 

[Strange]

56 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Yes, I probably am.

But if it's not a prediction, then why does it matter?

There are a lot of things that are possible risks.

Because, when discussing solutions to a problem that causes a large number of deaths one needs to consider the possible dangers (as well as any potential benefits). 

[MigL]

I can't believe that D Trump's idiotic proposal has been discussed for four pages.
Only someone like the current president would think that, in a country where the problem is too many guns and their easy accessibility, the solution is MORE guns.

Schools need to be gun-free zones.
Guns and kids don't mix.
Kids need to be taught their problems cannot be solved with violence.
Nor are their problems so great these days, as to cause all the teenage angst.

[swansont]

57 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

No. But can you prove that the "possible risk" happens often enough to outweigh any potential benefits? 

Risk can be assessed, if you have sufficient information.

Shootings happen even when trained professionals are present. The Florida shooting, for instance. A teacher will be less trained than a law enforcement professional. Far less.

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, MigL said:

I can't believe that D Trump's idiotic proposal has been discussed for four pages.
Only someone like the current president would think that, in a country where the problem is too many guns and their easy accessibility, the solution is MORE guns.

Schools need to be gun-free zones.
Guns and kids don't mix.
Kids need to be taught their problems cannot be solved with violence.
Nor are their problems so great these days, as to cause all the teenage angst.

Cannot agree more. If politicians float this idea I can only imagine it being either a distraction or simple capitulation. They have given up on the good in people and really believe that violence is the only solution. I trust that most are not that far gone yet.