Arming Teachers

[John Cuthber]

 

41 minutes ago, Arete said:

Nowhere did I ever state I shot dozens of birds with a single magazine from a pump action shotgun.

Nice attempt at a strawman. Now show everyone where you think I claimed that  you did say that.

(Spoiler alert- I didn't).

 

 

44 minutes ago, Arete said:

This clearly illustrates the extremity of your point of view

No.

It clearly shows that you are prepared to make stuff up in order top undermine my perspective. If you have to do that, what does it say for your viewpoint?

The point remains If you have often shot many birds then there's nothing to stop you shooting many people.

[Airbrush]

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

People are also bad at assessing risk. Buying a gun to protect oneself for a random home invasion is like buying scuba gear to protect yourself from a drowning accident. The scuba gear needs to be on you and ready to use to have a chance of helping. 

I agree, however having a loaded gun hidden near your bed is much handier than scuba gear for a potential drowning accident. 

If a teacher already has a pistol and is already expert, of sane mind, and can pass a test, they should carry the gun in a holster during the school day.  The problem with this is there are probably very FEW such teachers.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Airbrush

[Ten oz]

36 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

agree, however having a loaded gun hidden near your bed is much handier than scuba gear for a potential drowning accident. 

What stats can you provide to show that it's handy? Stats show the gun is more likely to kill the owner or be stolen than anything else. 

38 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

If a teacher already has a pistol and is already expert, of sane mind, and can pass a test, they should carry the gun in a holster during the school day.  The problem with this is there are probably very FEW such teachers.

In theory police have that training and yet police are still attacked and police still shoot and kill unarmed people. It isn't a matter of training. Arming Teachers is just a bad idea. There is a statistical correlation between more guns and more gun violence. 

[Externet]

Arming teachers may have supporters to a certain point.  Until one of them goes haywire because was fired or whatever and shit hits the fan inside a school.

Arms have no place in a school.  And parents/guardians  of minors with guns should be very punishable. 

 

[swansont]

31 minutes ago, Externet said:

Arming teachers may have supporters to a certain point.  Until one of them goes haywire because was fired or whatever and shit hits the fan inside a school.

Arms have no place in a school.  And parents/guardians  of minors with guns should be very punishable. 

 

Part of the tactic is probably having someone else to blame when things go sideways, as some people are doing right now with the Broward deputy not charging in with his service piece vs a more dangerous weapon. If a teacher doesn't stop a shooting, then it's the teacher's fault. The plan was fine, they'll say, it just wasn't executed properly.

Anything to forestall the prospect of not being able to sell more guns to people (and arming teachers would sell more guns to people), since the NRA is acting as a gun manufacturers' lobby group

20 hours ago, Airbrush said:

I agree, however having a loaded gun hidden near your bed is much handier than scuba gear for a potential drowning accident. 

"Handy" isn't all of the equation.

Question: do your insurance rates go up or down if you have guns in the house? If you have an alarm system, they go down. Does gun ownership do that? Ever wonder why that is?

[StringJunky]

34 minutes ago, swansont said:

Anything to forestall the prospect of not being able to sell more guns to people (and arming teachers would sell more guns to people), since the NRA is acting as a gun manufacturers' lobby group.

Do you this action will help any momentum towards overall gun safety if shops act like this one?

Quote

Dick's Sporting Goods curbs some gun sales, urges Congress to act

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Dick’s Sporting Goods Inc (DKS.N), a prominent seller of guns in the United States, said on Wednesday it will permanently stop selling assault-style rifles after the massacre at a Florida high school that has reopened a fierce debate over gun control in America.

The company will also stop selling high-capacity magazines and will not sell any guns to people under age 21, Dick’s Chief Executive Ed Stack said in an open letter on the company’s website and in television interviews.

“We’re taking these guns out of all of our stores permanently,” he told ABC News regarding the assault-style rifles. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-guns-dicks-sporting/dicks-sporting-goods-curbs-some-gun-sales-urges-congress-to-act-idUSKCN1GC1R1

 

[swansont]

12 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Do you this action will help any momentum towards overall gun safety if shops act like this one?

 

Lots of loopholes still exist, but it's a step in the right direction.

[StringJunky]

6 minutes ago, swansont said:

Lots of loopholes still exist, but it's a step in the right direction.

I think one thing that has been missing is consumer activism, which there seems to be some signs of now. Like was said before, only a third or less households possess guns but the gun lobby has been louder.

Edited February 28, 2018 by StringJunky

[Ten oz]

An armed teacher was in custody Wednesday afternoon after state and federal police in northwest Georgia responded to reports of shots fired at a high school.

No students at Dalton High School were hurt or remained in danger after they were evacuated as the crisis unfolded, Dalton police tweeted.

The teacher initially barricaded himself in an empty classroom at about 11:30 a.m. ET as confused students tried to get in, Dalton police spokesman Bruce Frazier said at a news conference. There were then reports that a gun was fired. The teacher surrendered after 30 to 45 minutes, reported NBC affiliate WXIA.

Frazier confirmed that at least one shot was fired after a principal used a key to try and get into the barricaded classroom. It was unclear what led the teacher to lock himself inside the classroom, Frazier said, but that he claimed he did not want to involve students.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/28/us/georgia-dalton-high-school-teacher-gunfire/index.html

[Strange]

Well that didn’t take long. 

[koti]

14 minutes ago, Strange said:

Well that didn’t take long. 

He probably had a silencer not to scare the students so no harm done. 

[Strange]

Apparently, some are claiming this is some sort of conspiracy. Someone even claimed George Soros was behind it 

[swansont]

17 hours ago, StringJunky said:

I think one thing that has been missing is consumer activism, which there seems to be some signs of now. Like was said before, only a third or less households possess guns but the gun lobby has been louder.

And it is easy to know why. The gun lobby is there for the manufacturers, not the consumers.

[StringJunky]

10 minutes ago, swansont said:

And it is easy to know why. The gun lobby is there for the manufacturers, not the consumers.

I see Walmart is raising the age now to 21, so maybe there is something happening. What do you make of Trump's latest comments regarding this? He seems to be wanting that kind regulation wrt to a minimum age and mental health. Do you think he''ll back flip?

[swansont]

6 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I see Walmart is raising the age now to 21, so maybe there is something happening. What do you make of Trump's latest comments regarding this? He seems to be wanting that kind regulation wrt to a minimum age and mental health. Do you think he''ll back flip?

I saw a quote yesterday (from a GOP congresscritter, IIRC) critiquing Trump, basically saying that leadership is not just repeating the last thing you've been told. Trump changed his tune after lunching with the NRA, and yet again (take the guns and worry about due process later) after another meeting.

I think he will be redirected by his staff to align with the GOP/NRA position, and Sarah H Sanders will walk back his comments and tell us that he actually meant the opposite of what he said, as per the usual gaslighting. (which may have already happened; I try not to follow these details too closely for the sake of my blood pressure and my sanity)

[StringJunky]

12 minutes ago, swansont said:

I saw a quote yesterday (from a GOP congresscritter, IIRC) critiquing Trump, basically saying that leadership is not just repeating the last thing you've been told. Trump changed his tune after lunching with the NRA, and yet again (take the guns and worry about due process later) after another meeting.

I think he will be redirected by his staff to align with the GOP/NRA position, and Sarah H Sanders will walk back his comments and tell us that he actually meant the opposite of what he said, as per the usual gaslighting. (which may have already happened; I try not to follow these details too closely for the sake of my blood pressure and my sanity)

Right.  I ask because I want to know how closely my news sources - BBC, Reuters and Japan  times -  reflects what Americans are seeing. What's the most neutral news site your side of the pond? I prefer mainly text than video.

[swansont]

3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Right.  I ask because I want to know how closely my news sources - BBC, Reuters and Japan  times -  reflects what Americans are seeing. What's the most neutral news site your side of the pond? I prefer mainly text than video.

That's a tough one, because while the "liberal" media has known sentiments, they actually try and report the news. Their foible is often trying to be balanced when no balance actually exists — it's taken them a long time to point out that the president (or a spokesperson) is lying, because they might lose access. Meanwhile, FOX points out, whenever the subject of journalistic integrity pops up, that they are not journalists. So there's not a lot of actual true neutrality.

When I watch, it's various msnbc talking heads. Most of my news comes from reading my twitter feed. Back in the day it was watching The Daily Show with Jon Stewart.

[koti]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

Right.  I ask because I want to know how closely my news sources - BBC, Reuters and Japan  times -  reflects what Americans are seeing. What's the most neutral news site your side of the pond? I prefer mainly text than video.

I use Reuters.

[StringJunky]

4 minutes ago, koti said:

I use Reuters.

I think it's the most neutral one, even than the BBC , which has its little pet agendas.

 

[Airbrush]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 12:54 PM, Ten oz said:

....Stats show the gun is more likely to kill the owner or be stolen than anything else. 

.... It isn't a matter of training. Arming Teachers is just a bad idea. There is a statistical correlation between more guns and more gun violence. 

Again I totally agree.  I'm NOT in favor of gun ownership.  I'm just trying to explain the reasoning behind SOME people owning A gun (not a collection of guns).  When the cop told me I should have A gun, when I reported an intruder, that was not enough to motivate me to buy my shot gun.  My real motivator was the first Terminator movie.  The hero used a shot gun to defend against a robot from the future.  I suspect a lot of folks buy A gun because of the thrill (that I experienced) of owning a real fire arm.  That was in 1984 when I was 30.  I'm not proud to own a gun, it is stupid.  I just don't want to dispose of it.  If the government told me to surrender it, I'd be glad to.

Does anyone else have A gun they bought for the THRILL, but really don't think about using it?

As for collecting a number of guns, I can't figure that out. 

Second Amendment:  "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear [single shot muskets] shall not be infringed."

What gun owner thinks they are a member of a "well regulated militia"?  The 2nd Amendment sounds absurd in light of modern fire arms.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Airbrush

[Ten oz]

At least two people have been killed in a shooting in a Central Michigan University dorm, according to troopers with the Michigan State Police post in Mount Pleasant, Michigan.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/03/02/2-shot-central-michigan-university-gunman-still-large/388570002/

[Ten oz]

On 3/2/2018 at 11:16 AM, Ten oz said:

At least two people have been killed in a shooting in a Central Michigan University dorm, according to troopers with the Michigan State Police post in Mount Pleasant, Michigan.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/03/02/2-shot-central-michigan-university-gunman-still-large/388570002/

"Yeagley said the gun used in the shooting belonged to Davis' father, but wouldn’t say whether the father had brought the gun to the university's campus in Mount Pleasant, Mich., when picking up his son. It was also unclear whether the gun was the elder Davis’ police service weapon."

"Davis Sr. was a police officer in west suburban Bellwood and an Illinois National Guard veteran who served in Operation Iraqi Freedom."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-central-michigan-shooting-arrest-20180303-story.html

 

Good guy with a gun killed with his own gun. This campus murder shows the many challenges schools face. In this case the shooter had been acting erratically. Campus security was aware as were the students parents yet the student still had access to his fathers gun. Somehow the gun still ended up on campus. 

[swansont]

4 hours ago, Ten oz said:

 Good guy with a gun killed with his own gun. This campus murder shows the many challenges schools face. In this case the shooter had been acting erratically. Campus security was aware as were the students parents yet the student still had access to his fathers gun. Somehow the gun still ended up on campus. 

College campus with many buildings, as apposed to a high school campus with one. Whatever measures are proposed for high schools, college campuses are going to be at least an order of magnitude harder to protect if one goes down the path of playing defense via fortification (i.e. the Maginot maneuver).

 

[CharonY]

12 hours ago, swansont said:

College campus with many buildings, as apposed to a high school campus with one. Whatever measures are proposed for high schools, college campuses are going to be at least an order of magnitude harder to protect if one goes down the path of playing defense via fortification (i.e. the Maginot maneuver).

It would be more akin to regular policing of a village rather than a building. But realistically, I wonder if it makes sense to look at school shootings in isolation. While they are the one of the most emotionally devastating shootings one could think of, they are still a relatively rare event (I wonder whether there are historic data on school shootings in the US). The issue is that the rarity of those events may make measures specifically for schools either useless or at least provide low impact. On the other hand, overall measures that tackle gun violence as a whole may have a better success rate in eventually pulling those numbers down.

[StringJunky]

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

It would be more akin to regular policing of a village rather than a building. But realistically, I wonder if it makes sense to look at school shootings in isolation. While they are the one of the most emotionally devastating shootings one could think of, they are still a relatively rare event (I wonder whether there are historic data on school shootings in the US). The issue is that the rarity of those events may make measures specifically for schools either useless or at least provide low impact. On the other hand, overall measures that tackle gun violence as a whole may have a better success rate in eventually pulling those numbers down.

I think the problem you've got with securing a school is probably not unlike securing an airliner; think  Germanwings plane crash. The problem could appear from the inside as much as the outside. It's a tough cookie.