cheetaman Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 Italy invented the compass. The pointer of the ancient Chinese compass was as big as a spoon. The spoon was put on a board, with nothing else. Compass, Wikipedia History of the compass, Wikipedia Chinese Compass, "Si Nan", photo.
swansont Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 ! Moderator Note What is your point, and what classical physics is it you wish to discuss?
cheetaman Posted February 28, 2018 Author Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, swansont said: ! Moderator Note What is your point, and what classical physics is it you wish to discuss? My point is that, how come that rubbish "The Chinese ancient compass" is regarded as a scientific invention by some "scholars"? And why do you think this is nothing to do with physics? Edited February 28, 2018 by cheetaman
DrP Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 I'll take a stab in the dark without doing any research on the subject what so ever. Maybe the Chinese version was a discovery rather than an invention? They 'noticed' that their iron spoon thing lined up with the North when it was on a slippery surface long before they under stood why it was happening. Thus it is a discovery not an invention.... Centuries later, when magnetism was better 'understood'*, someone in Italy designed a piece of kit based on what they know about iron aligning with the earths magnetic field for the purpose of finding direction. * - I say 'understood'... our knowledge is changing all the time - I do not know if they knew about the alignment of nuclei, probably not, but they knew that the metal, for whatever reason, aligned with the north and built a machine to do this accurately and repeatedly. Just speculation and my wild guess! - Maybe there is another reason - please tell if you find it out.
Strange Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, cheetaman said: Italy invented the compass. The pointer of the ancient Chinese compass was as big as a spoon. The spoon was put on a board, with nothing else. Compass, Wikipedia History of the compass, Wikipedia Your references seem to confirm that the compass was invented first in China and maybe independently later in Europe (and possibly elsewhere). It doesn't mention Italy specifically. Edit: Just spotted this line from wikipedia: "traditionally Flavio Gioja (fl. 1302), an Italian pilot from Amalfi, has been credited with perfecting the sailor's compass by suspending its needle over a compass card, thus giving the compass its familiar appearance" So is your point that an Italian developed something that looks more like a modern compass? As the OP presumably wasn't able to post links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass 16 minutes ago, cheetaman said: And why do you think this is nothing to do with physics? Seems more like history, to me. Edited February 28, 2018 by Strange
Area54 Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 54 minutes ago, DrP said: I'll take a stab in the dark without doing any research on the subject what so ever. Maybe the Chinese version was a discovery rather than an invention? They 'noticed' that their iron spoon thing lined up with the North when it was on a slippery surface long before they under stood why it was happening. Thus it is a discovery not an invention.... The distinction between discovery and invention can be blurred in some circumstances, but I think your interpretation misses the mark. It would, I think, be more accurate to state that the Chinese discovered that certain metal objects pointed in a consistent direction. They then invented an instrument to make use of this discovery. 1 hour ago, cheetaman said: And why do you think this is nothing to do with physics? I don't think Swansont said it had nothing to do with physics. He asked which aspect of physics you wished to discuss (since this is a discussion forum :)).
Strange Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 1 hour ago, cheetaman said: My point is that, how come that rubbish "The Chinese ancient compass" is regarded as a scientific invention by some "scholars"? Who says it is a "scientific" invention? What is a "scientific invention"?
Area54 Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, Strange said: Who says it is a "scientific" invention? What is a "scientific invention"? Well, I for one just said it was. It is a novel application of materials and objects to take advantage of an observation with scientific overtones. That seems, to me, a fair defintion of an invention.(And as long as it is in quotation marks I'd say I was a "scholar". :)) 1
swansont Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 1 hour ago, cheetaman said: My point is that, how come that rubbish "The Chinese ancient compass" is regarded as a scientific invention by some "scholars"? That seems to be a matter of history, rather than physics, and the discussion is very, very light on details thus far. 1 hour ago, cheetaman said: And why do you think this is nothing to do with physics? Has anybody discussed any actual physics yet in this thread?
Strange Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, Area54 said: Well, I for one just said it was. It is a novel application of materials and objects to take advantage of an observation with scientific overtones. That seems, to me, a fair defintion of an invention.(And as long as it is in quotation marks I'd say I was a "scholar". :)) I agree that it could be classified as an invention, but a scientific invention? It wasn't really developed with the modern concept of science. But maybe noticing that certain materials consistently point in the same direction, if free to move, counts as basic empirical observation.
DrP Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 22 minutes ago, swansont said: Has anybody discussed any actual physics yet in this thread? Alignment of nuclei? I bet the Chinese didn't know that.... although saying that nor did the Italians in the 1300s. Phew!... it seems crazy that the very idea of positive nuclei and negative electrons in an atom was only thought of first just over 120 years ago! If you look at our knowledge now just think how far we have come since J J Thompson first proposed positive 'plumb raisins' in a negative dough like plum pudding.
swansont Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 40 minutes ago, DrP said: Alignment of nuclei? I bet the Chinese didn't know that.... although saying that nor did the Italians in the 1300s. Phew!... it seems crazy that the very idea of positive nuclei and negative electrons in an atom was only thought of first just over 120 years ago! If you look at our knowledge now just think how far we have come since J J Thompson first proposed positive 'plumb raisins' in a negative dough like plum pudding. It's the electron spin and having unpaired electrons, so it even goes beyond Thomson. But the recognition that things are magnetic, and that the earth is, too, is earlier. But that doesn't seem to be what the thrust of the OP is about. The thing is, a lot of inventions are crude at the start and get refined over time. So I'm not seeing the reason for the umbrage-taking.
DrP Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, swansont said: The thing is, a lot of inventions are crude at the start and get refined over time. So I'm not seeing the reason for the umbrage-taking. Quite. Although it was used to indicate North, the Chinese thing is just a spoon on a board... could you really call it a compass? Is a pin through a cork put in a bucket of water a compass? A delicately made intricate dial enclosed in brass with a glass covering and a artistically crafted magnetised needle on a spindle above the dial built for the sole purpose of indicating North.... is a compass. I guess it depends on definitions again. Maybe you can call the Chinese one a compass if that was it's specific purpose. idk. Regarding Thompson, I only mentioned him because he was the first, afaik, who proposed positive centres in a negative sea... it was the first eureka moment imo for building a model for the atom. Obviously taken further by Bhor and then further by more modern models, but I think it was a defining moment (as were Bhors revelations I suppose, but it was built on from Thompsons suggestions and observations). Again though - wow - just over 120 years.... I can't imagine not knowing what an atom is. I can't even comprehend not knowing what it is - it would change the way I think about reality for sure. Edited February 28, 2018 by DrP
cheetaman Posted February 28, 2018 Author Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Strange said: Your references seem to confirm that the compass was invented first in China and maybe independently later in Europe (and possibly elsewhere). It doesn't mention Italy specifically. Edit: Just spotted this line from wikipedia: "traditionally Flavio Gioja (fl. 1302), an Italian pilot from Amalfi, has been credited with perfecting the sailor's compass by suspending its needle over a compass card, thus giving the compass its familiar appearance" So is your point that an Italian developed something that looks more like a modern compass? As the OP presumably wasn't able to post links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass Seems more like history, to me. "... the compass was invented first in China and maybe independently later in Europe (and possibly elsewhere). .." ............................................................................................................. Then, the point is that whoever believe this must be a fool. The person who wrote this is a "scholar", LMAO. Photo: The ancient Chinese "Compass", Sinan. Edited February 28, 2018 by cheetaman -1
swansont Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, DrP said: Quite. Although it was used to indicate North, the Chinese thing is just a spoon on a board... could you really call it a compass? Is a pin through a cork put in a bucket of water a compass? A delicately made intricate dial enclosed in brass with a glass covering and a artistically crafted magnetised needle on a spindle above the dial built for the sole purpose of indicating North.... is a compass. I guess it depends on definitions again. Maybe you can call the Chinese one a compass if that was it's specific purpose. idk. Is a sundial a type of clock? It's probably orders of magnitude worse at telling time than state-of-the-art devices than the Chinese device compared to a modern-day compass. 1 minute ago, cheetaman said: "... the compass was invented first in China and maybe independently later in Europe (and possibly elsewhere). .." ............................................................................................................. Then, the point is that whoever believe this must be a fool. The person who wrote this is a "scholar", LMAO. You have made zero justification for your position. 1
DrP Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 Just now, cheetaman said: "... the compass was invented first in China and maybe independently later in Europe (and possibly elsewhere). .." ............................................................................................................. Then, the point is that whoever believe this must be a fool. The person who wrote this is a "scholar", LMAO. What do you mean? Also - did you read what I wrote above? How would YOU define a compass? Is a needle through a cork in a bucket a compass? Is a spoon on a board a compass? As swansant said above, is a sundial a clock? Just now, swansont said: Is a sundial a type of clock? It's probably orders of magnitude worse at telling time than state-of-the-art devices than the Chinese device compared to a modern-day compass. Good analogy - I would say there are arguments both for and against a sundial being called a clock. Is a watch a clock? I'd say a watch is a clock - I don't think (imo) a sundial is a clock. Depends - is EVERYTHING that can be used to tell the time a clock? I don't think so but would have to study the exact definitions of the words better - maybe they just aren't that well defined. 6 minutes ago, cheetaman said: "... the compass was invented first in China and maybe independently later in Europe (and possibly elsewhere). .." ............................................................................................................. Then, the point is that whoever believe this must be a fool. The person who wrote this is a "scholar", LMAO. Also.... why couldn't these similar devices have been invented by different people in different parts of the world at different times? It was a serious [problem getting lost at sea for any traveller in those days I would imagine... necessity being the mother of invention and all that.
StringJunky Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, DrP said: Good analogy - I would say there are arguments both for and against a sundial being called a clock. Is a watch a clock? I'd say a watch is a clock - I don't think (imo) a sundial is a clock. Depends - is EVERYTHING that can be used to tell the time a clock? I don't think so but would have to study the exact definitions of the words better - maybe they just aren't that well defined. A clock is anything used to measure time... I would say. 1
cheetaman Posted February 28, 2018 Author Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, swansont said: Is a sundial a type of clock? It's probably orders of magnitude worse at telling time than state-of-the-art devices than the Chinese device compared to a modern-day compass. You have made zero justification for your position. If a person has a look at "the ancient Chinese compass" and he/she believes it works. The person must be a fool. It is like you do not need someone to explain that 3>2 for you. 6 minutes ago, StringJunky said: A clock is anything used to measure time... I would say. No, It is a "compass" in China. You can google "Chinese compass" + "Sinan". Plus, The Chinese microchip The chip was later revealed to be a duplicate of a chip developed in the West, with the original identifications sanded away. Hanxin, Wikipedia Edited February 28, 2018 by cheetaman
Strange Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 16 minutes ago, cheetaman said: If a person has a look at "the ancient Chinese compass" and he/she believes it works. The person must be a fool Why? 17 minutes ago, cheetaman said: The Chinese microchip You make it sound like they have only ever made one! 1
swansont Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 11 minutes ago, cheetaman said: If a person has a look at "the ancient Chinese compass" and he/she believes it works. The person must be a fool. It is like you do not need someone to explain that 3>2 for you. No, It is a "compass" in China. You can google "Chinese compass" + "Sinan". Googling shows a lot of people calling the Sinan an early compass. Why is it that you believe it does not work? This video at about 0:25 shows one working
Strange Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 34 minutes ago, cheetaman said: Then, the point is that whoever believe this must be a fool. Why? 34 minutes ago, cheetaman said: The person who wrote this is a "scholar", LMAO. How do you know it was a scholar? Have you checked the Wikipedia history? 42 minutes ago, cheetaman said: with the original identifications sanded away. The idea of sanding something that small is quite amusing 48 minutes ago, cheetaman said: The Chinese microchip It’s off-topic but if anyone is interested in the (slightly bizarre) story behind this: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2006/05/15/technology/15fraud.html?pagewanted=all
Silvestru Posted March 1, 2018 Posted March 1, 2018 17 hours ago, cheetaman said: If a person has a look at "the ancient Chinese compass" and he/she believes it works. The person must be a fool. Let me guess... You are Italian and you always lived with the idea that the compass was invented in Italy. You saw a mention that it was first invented in China. Anger ensued. 1
cheetaman Posted March 1, 2018 Author Posted March 1, 2018 19 hours ago, swansont said: Googling shows a lot of people calling the Sinan an early compass. Why is it that you believe it does not work? This video at about 0:25 shows one working Again, It is another fake one. I guess you must have no knowledge in physics. 1)The book "1421: The Year China Discovered the World. " by Gavin Menzies. Historians have categorised Menzies' work as pseudo-history.Menzies' work have been entirely discredited by historians, maritime experts and oceanographers from China, the U.S., Europe and elsewhere. Gavin Menzies, Wikipedia 2)The Chinese microchip The chip was later revealed to be a duplicate of a chip developed in the West, with the original identifications sanded away. Hanxin, Wikipedia 19 hours ago, Strange said: Why? You make it sound like they have only ever made one! Chinese made two, both are fake. 1) The chip was later revealed to be a duplicate of a chip developed in the West, with the original identifications sanded away. Hanxin, Wikipedia 2) Loongson - Wikipedia
Strange Posted March 1, 2018 Posted March 1, 2018 1 minute ago, cheetaman said: Again, It is another fake one. What evidence do you have for that? 2 minutes ago, cheetaman said: I guess you must have no knowledge in physics. Can you explain why you think it doesn't work? I have to say that the spoon shape is a very clever way of making a low friction bearing from a material that is, I assume, quite hard to work. With the added bonus that you can use it to eat your soup afterwards! 4 minutes ago, cheetaman said: 1)The book "1421: The Year China Discovered the World. " by Gavin Menzies. Historians have categorised Menzies' work as pseudo-history. Agreed. But how is this relevant to the compass? Neither the Wikipedia page not anyone here has used this as a reference. 5 minutes ago, cheetaman said: 2)The Chinese microchip That should be: "A Chinese microchip"
cheetaman Posted March 1, 2018 Author Posted March 1, 2018 2 hours ago, Silvestru said: Let me guess... You are Italian and you always lived with the idea that the compass was invented in Italy. You saw a mention that it was first invented in China. Anger ensued. How about Spanish?? 1) In the 16th century , European believed that a few thousand soldiers can conquer China.-- "The Spanish Plan to Conquer China." 2)In 1900, a small European army took Beijing and lost only 60 soldiers. Battle of Peking (1900) , Wikipedia 3) The book "1421: The Year China Discovered the World. " by Gavin Menzies. Historians have categorised Menzies' work as pseudo-history.Menzies' work have been entirely discredited by historians, maritime experts and oceanographers from China, the U.S., Europe and elsewhere. Gavin Menzies, Wikipedia
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