Are there any other animals that make food fun?

[dstebbins]

Food is necessary to sustain life. I get it. Killing livestock and crops is a necessary evil if you want to survive.

But humans tend to take food to another level. For us, food isn't just a means of survival. It's a fine-art. Culinary art, to be exact. There are artists - known as "chefs" - who specialize in finding new and creative ways to make food. Mealtime is usually treated as a family bonding ritual; the archetypal image of a wholesome family is one who is sitting around the dinner table with food covered all over the table!

This is actually a rare - if not completely unique - trait of food consumption. Most animals will kill their prey (and yes, vegetation counts as prey) and eat the food right then and there. Blood, bones, skin and all. No cooking; no saying grace. Just eat it and move on.

Are there any other animals in the world who treat food with any degree of ritual-ness, like we do? Obviously, it won't be nearly as elaborate as we do, seeing as how they can't control fire and therefore have no means of cooking food, let alone the elaborate recipes that our chefs come up with. But are there any animals that treat dining with any degree of artistic or ritualistic importance?

[pavelcherepan]

4 hours ago, dstebbins said:

Blood, bones, skin and all.

During the salmon run in northern rivers brown bears would often only eat heads and eggs of the fish they catch and discard all the rest. 

Quote

Bears know this and prefer to eat the skin, brain, and eggs—the fattiest parts of a salmon—when fish are in abundance.

https://www.nps.gov/katm/learn/photosmultimedia/brown-bear-frequently-asked-questions.htm#29

Additionally, many animals are known to play with their pray before killing. Those are mostly mammals that I know of, cats, dolphins, orcas, for example.

[dstebbins]

1 minute ago, pavelcherepan said:

During the salmon run in northern rivers brown bears would often only eat heads and eggs of the fish they catch and discard all the rest.

That's quite a far cry from turning food into an art-form or family/community bonding ritual.

Quote

Additionally, many animals are known to play with their pray before killing. Those are mostly mammals that I know of, cats, dolphins, orcas, for example.

Still not quite the same thing as fine art or family/community bonding.

Playing with one's food doesn't usually have a procedure to it. The cat whatever you want with the food until you're ready to chow down.

A family sitting at the dinner table, meanwhile, has a set of rules to it. It's not as strictly enforced as, say, a jury trial in a courtroom, but there is still some formalities that need to be observed. Everyone sits down before anyone takes a bite. Everyone usually says grace before they begin eating. You keep your lips closed when chewing, and don't reach across the table for a plate, but instead ask someone to pass it to you.

Now, if cats had a set procedure for playing with their food - e.g. they usually began by swinging it around by the tail, then gave it a chance to run away before catching it again, and usually in that exact order - that would constitute a ritual.

[pavelcherepan]

9 minutes ago, dstebbins said:

A family sitting at the dinner table, meanwhile, has a set of rules to it. It's not as strictly enforced as, say, a jury trial in a courtroom, but there is still some formalities that need to be observed. Everyone sits down before anyone takes a bite. Everyone usually says grace before they begin eating. You keep your lips closed when chewing, and don't reach across the table for a plate, but instead ask someone to pass it to you.

Oh, that is easier. Take a look at the set of rules followed by a wolf pack or by a lion pride. There are rules as to the order in which animals eat the pray. But, alas, there have been no recorded cases of wolves saying grace before digging in...

[Endy0816]

13 minutes ago, dstebbins said:

A family sitting at the dinner table, meanwhile, has a set of rules to it. It's not as strictly enforced as, say, a jury trial in a courtroom, but there is still some formalities that need to be observed. Everyone sits down before anyone takes a bite. Everyone usually says grace before they begin eating. You keep your lips closed when chewing, and don't reach across the table for a plate, but instead ask someone to pass it to you.

What is this 'table' that you speak of?

[dstebbins]

1 minute ago, pavelcherepan said:

Oh, that is easier. Take a look at the set of rules followed by a wolf pack or by a lion pride. There are rules as to the order in which animals eat the pray.

Ok, that sounds like it could be ritualistic. But is that really done for the sake of community bonding, or just to ensure that the pride's alpha male gets preferential treatment simply because he's the leader?

Like how, when there's a catastrophe in human society, the head of state is always the first to be evacuated.

For example, at a wedding, the bride and groom are usually entitled the first slice of cake ... because it's their special day. Same with a birthday boy at his birthday party. These are both instances of social gatherings where one person or a small group of people are given preferential treatment to eat first, but that has nothing to do with sovereignty. It's a ritual thing.

Are wolves/lions order of eating done out of ritualness, or is it just "Me first because I'm in charge?"

1 minute ago, Endy0816 said:

• What is this 'table' that you speak of?

Like these:

[Endy0816]

We have something like that we use for storage. You say it has other uses though?

[pavelcherepan]

10 minutes ago, dstebbins said:

Are wolves/lions order of eating done out of ritualness, or is it just "Me first because I'm in charge?"

11 minutes ago, Endy0816 said:

It's the latter. Developing rituals requires consciousness.

[dstebbins]

On 3/9/2018 at 5:03 PM, pavelcherepan said:

It's the latter. Developing rituals requires consciousness.

Ok ... that just seems like the arbitrary determinations of some philosopher (such as a religious zealout) rather than well-researched theory that actually has any backing in science.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. But then again, the way you convey your thoughts to me in only two sentences suggests that you consider this to be a cut-and-dry case. It almost seems like there should have been a third sentence in your message, considering of only a single word: "Period." That's definitely how your message comes off as.

Science is never cut and dry. For 90% of human history, everyone just assumed that heavy objects fall faster than lightweight ones ... because of course they do! But then Galileo went and actually tested that belief, and lo and behold, it ended up being false.

On 3/9/2018 at 5:03 PM, Endy0816 said:

We have something like that we use for storage. You say it has other uses though?

Edited March 12, 2018 by Phi for All
spam copypaste removed

[pavelcherepan]

6 minutes ago, dstebbins said:

Ok ... that just seems like the arbitrary determinations of some philosopher (such as a religious zealout) rather than well-researched theory that actually has any backing in science.

Well, there is a field of science that studies religious and ritualistic behaviours in animals, although it might be quite a boring one:

Quote

Animal faith is the study of animal behaviours that suggest proto-religious faith. There is no evidence that any non-human animals believe in God or gods, pray, worship, have any notion of metaphysics, create artifacts with ritual significance, or many other behaviours typical of human religion.

There are well documented animal funeral rites though.

9 minutes ago, dstebbins said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. But then again, the way you convey your thoughts to me in only two sentences suggests that you consider this to be a cut-and-dry case.

It's not that. There could be several points I wanted to address from your opening post, but from quite a bit of experience on this forum I know that even if I bring up several points, the discussion will soon just focus on only one of those, therefore, it seems like a wasted effort to start with a long response and it's much better for the flow of discussion to bring points in succession.

[Bender]

Chimps eating each others parasites is a bonding moment. 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Bender

[dstebbins]

1 minute ago, pavelcherepan said:

There are well documented animal funeral rites though.

This seems like a blatant contradiction to your last post.

You say devloping rituals requires consciousness (aka self-awareness, aka sentience). Well, setting aside the fact that you offer no evidence that sentience is a pre-requisite to developing rituals, you still make the implication that, because animals lack this consciousness, they are incapable of developing rituals.

Your 2-sentence arguments rests on the unspoken assumption that animals lack sentience. Otherwise, you don't actually address the matter because, by our own admission, animals are still capable of the prerequisite you say is lacking.

But now you say that they do have rituals ... just not when it comes to mealtime. So they must have at least some primitive form of self-awareness.

6 minutes ago, Bender said:

Chimps eating each others parasites is a bonding moment. 

Are they eating them for food, or hygeine?

[pavelcherepan]

OK, I should have made myself more clear. 

The situation of eating around the table you used as an example is a complex set of rituals with major religious overtones. There is a saying the grace you mentioned, there's a respect for the more senior members of the family, which forms basis of many religions, such as shinto or taoism, for example. There are also eating and behaviour formalities that are a part of human culture. All-in-all, these is a very complex example of eating ritual and northing of sorts has ever been observed in animals. That's what that quote was referring to.

On the other hand I have presented you with simpler versions of "eating rituals" in my earlier post, so you can't really say I'm contradicting myself.

Animals do have some ritualistic behaviours, but things like mourning for the dead are not necessarily a sign of "culture" or "religion".

27 minutes ago, dstebbins said:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes

Seriously?

Edited March 10, 2018 by pavelcherepan

[Bender]

20 minutes ago, dstebbins said:

Are they eating them for food, or hygeine?

Both, but the social aspect also seems to be quite important.

Given the minuscule size of lice eggs it is probably also more snacks than food.

[Endy0816]

4 minutes ago, pavelcherepan said:

Seriously?

His response was to my comment about using the table for storage.

Trying to make a point that not all humans even follow the same ritualistic behavior patterns.

Dinner for my family typically consists of TV trays and no saying of grace, for instance. If we choose to have or host a holliday meal at home, the table may see use then.

[pavelcherepan]

1 minute ago, Endy0816 said:

His response was to my comment about using the table for storage.

 

Yeah, I understood that. I was just a little shocked by the number of 'rolleyes:' in his response.

[dstebbins]

35 minutes ago, pavelcherepan said:

Yeah, I understood that. I was just a little shocked by the number of 'rolleyes:' in his response.

Because he's clearly trolling.

He's saying that, because he, personally, doesn't usually use the dinner table, that alone means that these ritual tropes are not in fact tradition in any way.

[Endy0816]

More to provide a counterpoint to the idea of there being formalities that need to be observed.

[dstebbins]

30 minutes ago, Endy0816 said:

More to provide a counterpoint to the idea of there being formalities that need to be observed.

Well, you still look for new and creative recipes, don't you? Like I said in my OP, food is a fine art as well as a bonding ritual.

Essentially, it's more than just a means of survival for most humans; it is an important part of many societies' cultural identities.

[Sensei]

4 hours ago, dstebbins said:

 

4 hours ago, Endy0816 said:

• What is this 'table' that you speak of?

Like these:

I never had such 'table'... (excluding Christmas etc.).. it's sort of.. "dream"..? right now, in modern world, when everybody have their work to do...

 

Some people hate "family dinners"... because of parents BS talking.. so they avoid it whenever they can.. to not have to end up in fight... Too apodictic parents, who think they know everything, while knowing nothing, are ruining entire event.. They ruined entire trust in father and mother and family long ago..

I would say, treat your children as.... partner.. since the beginning.. not some kind of slave, which you just give orders what to do, entire day..

If parent will be commanding child, when they will have more power, will control you instead.. when you're weak and old..

..and you will complain "son/daughter is treating me like [...]".. but such parent worked on it entire life..

 

Why are you "punishing" Endy with negative vote.. ?

He certainly didn't deserve it...

 

[interested]

9 hours ago, dstebbins said:

Everyone sits down before anyone takes a bite. Everyone usually says grace before they begin eating. You keep your lips closed when chewing, and don't reach across the table for a plate, but instead ask someone to pass it to you.

Now, if cats had a set procedure for playing with their food - e.g. they usually began by swinging it around by the tail, then gave it a chance to run away before catching it again, and usually in that exact order - that would constitute a ritual.

Saying grace is a religious practice used by some religious groups. Most human animals do not practice this. Eating with your mouth closed I guess is a social thing which my family do, but if your food is still alive and trying to get away whilst you are trying to eat it what does it matter if you have your mouth open. If you are at a buffet with total strangers and want something from a plate you may ask people to move out of the way to get at what you want to eat, but you arent going to say to a bunch of strangers talking and obstructing your food, excuse me but do you mind passing me a twiglet for example.

Animals such as humans and elephants are known to mourn their dead, ie they can be upset due to the loss of pet human or other animal. Many mammals get very upset at the loss of a family member. In time of war many soldiers fight risking their lives to protect comrades, as do many other animals who protect their young risking their own liveswhen another animal is trying to kill them.

Dolphins and whales are known to herd their food allowing other members of the family group to swim into the herded food and eat it sometimes with their mouths open. Filter feeders need to eat with their mouths open, but find it easier if the food has been concentrated by other family members first. (Would shoaling be a better word than herding when referencing fish.)

Children play with their food and can be very cruel to animals, many humans in the past have been watched with great amusement as animals and other humans kill each other in gladiatorial fights to the death, see for instance the colliseum in Rome, it was a huge arena built for just this purpose.

Many animals exhibit the same emotions as other species of animals like humans. Dogs can be taught not to do things you dont like as children can be taught to do what is socially acceptable to the parents or other family members, most people do not make their children say grace except in religious communities. I am not aware of any animals saying grace either. 

Many animals play with each other  which is a way of bonding seen especially in mammals. Humans are mammals also and often play together, just like other animals. Humans who group together under one religious/political/family group idea often use their idea of group to attack another group, killing and maiming but feel it is OK because they have a different religion or political ideology. Animals are generally more civilized and have not been known to murder millions of their species because of religious or political differences for instance, they dont say grace either. 

 

[Strange]

6 minutes ago, interested said:

Saying grace is a religious practice used by some religious groups. Most human animals do not practice this.

Although the English-speaking world seems unusual in not having a fixed phrase before starting eating (bon appétit, いただきます, etc)

[interested]

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

Although the English-speaking world seems unusual in not having a fixed phrase before starting eating (bon appétit, いただきます, etc)

I guess bon appetite sounds better than lets eat, dig in, help yourself, get stuck in, dont wait for me, perhaps.  But they mean the same the japanese say いただきます Let us eat according to google translate, a bit like some english.

Most speakers would understand bon appetite. English being an adaptable language deriving many of its words from other invading countries over the years. 

I wonder what the signal or sounds dolphins and whales waiting for other members of their species to shoal their food would use before diving in to eat? dive in perhaps eek eek eek. with perhaps each eek having a different tone and meaning like other tonal languages used by some humans. Some whales have brain cavities you can stand inside and they do communicate over huge distances. The fact they dont read and write and would not find a table useful to eat their food from due to evolutionary developments does not mean they are completely stupid. They of course due their evolutionary development over a few millenia did not need to develop weapons to defend themselves. 

[Uorigins]

On 3/10/2018 at 12:20 AM, dstebbins said:

Food is necessary to sustain life. I get it. Killing livestock and crops is a necessary evil if you want to survive.

But humans tend to take food to another level. For us, food isn't just a means of survival. It's a fine-art. Culinary art, to be exact. There are artists - known as "chefs" - who specialize in finding new and creative ways to make food. Mealtime is usually treated as a family bonding ritual; the archetypal image of a wholesome family is one who is sitting around the dinner table with food covered all over the table!

This is actually a rare - if not completely unique - trait of food consumption. Most animals will kill their prey (and yes, vegetation counts as prey) and eat the food right then and there. Blood, bones, skin and all. No cooking; no saying grace. Just eat it and move on.

Are there any other animals in the world who treat food with any degree of ritual-ness, like we do? Obviously, it won't be nearly as elaborate as we do, seeing as how they can't control fire and therefore have no means of cooking food, let alone the elaborate recipes that our chefs come up with. But are there any animals that treat dining with any degree of artistic or ritualistic importance?

I don't think so,  because there are no punishments involved in the animal world ,  among the 8.7 million species on earth, only THE HUMANS have created laws and regulations to safeguard themselves , and living in that mindset we too apply it to killing for food,  The universe is just about transformation of energy and transformation of physical matter, 10 000 years ago maybe there were no punishments for killing of people for own safety too, animals do the same just now in their world, gangs, killings for territory, If we apply that to human nature that is crime, which is good in one way because we are safe in the hands of law.

But in the case of food and killing is that - if one animal gets killed , nothing goes to waste, we put the waste in the dustbin but and think it as wasted

But the act is that we do not see the next level on the waste consumption, that is the waste we think is eaten or fed on by smaller animals like flies , insects , bacteria or microorganisms.

There is no degree of ritual-ness involved in the food chain, because the food chain is itself THE RITUAL OF NATURE , eat others and at the end get eaten, the sweet flow of energy and physical transformation,

There is no animal that practices or fears god except us, there is just UN NOTICEABLY being part of the PHYSICS BIOLOGY and CHEMISTRY ritual,  which has its own code of balance running in the background and all you have to do on earth is think about YOUR OWN SURVIVAL.

Now humans developed the idea of culinary , producing food, livestock and veggies, which is apart from the wild world of animals.

This is because of the evolution of art, because there is no more local war. 

Now before we used to eat animals of the wild and grains and veggies of the wild. and we used to bury our body after death, which returned the energy collected from the universe back to it.

But as we evolved we had rituals in every little thing, we started burning bodies or burring them in coffins,

And on the other hand we were evolved that we started producing our own livestock and veggies, grains and consuming them,

So it is like we are breaking ourselves from the cycle of the wild,

and creating our own cycle and balance of life and death

and in that we are including rituals,

TO SAFEGUARD OURSELVES

BECAUSE WE ARE WORRIED WE ARE NOT GIVING BACK TO THE EARTH THE ENERGY WE CONSUMED FROM IT BY COFFINING OR BURNING RITUALS AFTER DEATH.

if you live in the wild, you will never find the need of any ritual but just to live free !

On 3/10/2018 at 3:22 PM, interested said:

I guess bon appetite sounds better than lets eat, dig in, help yourself, get stuck in, dont wait for me, perhaps.  But they mean the same the japanese say いただきます Let us eat according to google translate, a bit like some english.

Most speakers would understand bon appetite. English being an adaptable language deriving many of its words from other invading countries over the years. 

I wonder what the signal or sounds dolphins and whales waiting for other members of their species to shoal their food would use before diving in to eat? dive in perhaps eek eek eek. with perhaps each eek having a different tone and meaning like other tonal languages used by some humans. Some whales have brain cavities you can stand inside and they do communicate over huge distances. The fact they dont read and write and would not find a table useful to eat their food from due to evolutionary developments does not mean they are completely stupid. They of course due their evolutionary development over a few millenia did not need to develop weapons to defend themselves. 

I don't think so,  because there are no punishments involved in the animal world ,  among the 8.7 million species on earth, only THE HUMANS have created laws and regulations to safeguard themselves , and living in that mindset we too apply it to killing for food,  The universe is just about transformation of energy and transformation of physical matter, 10 000 years ago maybe there were no punishments for killing of people for own safety too, animals do the same just now in their world, gangs, killings for territory, If we apply that to human nature that is crime, which is good in one way because we are safe in the hands of law.

But in the case of food and killing is that - if one animal gets killed , nothing goes to waste, we put the waste in the dustbin but and think it as wasted

But the act is that we do not see the next level on the waste consumption, that is the waste we think is eaten or fed on by smaller animals like flies , insects , bacteria or microorganisms.

There is no degree of ritual-ness involved in the food chain, because the food chain is itself THE RITUAL OF NATURE , eat others and at the end get eaten, the sweet flow of energy and physical transformation,

There is no animal that practices or fears god except us, there is just UN NOTICEABLY being part of the PHYSICS BIOLOGY and CHEMISTRY ritual,  which has its own code of balance running in the background and all you have to do on earth is think about YOUR OWN SURVIVAL.

Now humans developed the idea of culinary , producing food, livestock and veggies, which is apart from the wild world of animals.

This is because of the evolution of art, because there is no more local war. 

Now before we used to eat animals of the wild and grains and veggies of the wild. and we used to bury our body after death, which returned the energy collected from the universe back to it.

But as we evolved we had rituals in every little thing, we started burning bodies or burring them in coffins,

And on the other hand we were evolved that we started producing our own livestock and veggies, grains and consuming them,

So it is like we are breaking ourselves from the cycle of the wild,

and creating our own cycle and balance of life and death

and in that we are including rituals,

TO SAFEGUARD OURSELVES

BECAUSE WE ARE WORRIED WE ARE NOT GIVING BACK TO THE EARTH THE ENERGY WE CONSUMED FROM IT BY COFFINING OR BURNING RITUALS AFTER DEATH.

if you live in the wild, you will never find the need of any ritual but just to live free !

On 3/10/2018 at 4:56 AM, pavelcherepan said:

During the salmon run in northern rivers brown bears would often only eat heads and eggs of the fish they catch and discard all the rest. 

https://www.nps.gov/katm/learn/photosmultimedia/brown-bear-frequently-asked-questions.htm#29

Additionally, many animals are known to play with their pray before killing. Those are mostly mammals that I know of, cats, dolphins, orcas, for example.

I don't think so,  because there are no punishments involved in the animal world ,  among the 8.7 million species on earth, only THE HUMANS have created laws and regulations to safeguard themselves , and living in that mindset we too apply it to killing for food,  The universe is just about transformation of energy and transformation of physical matter, 10 000 years ago maybe there were no punishments for killing of people for own safety too, animals do the same just now in their world, gangs, killings for territory, If we apply that to human nature that is crime, which is good in one way because we are safe in the hands of law.

But in the case of food and killing is that - if one animal gets killed , nothing goes to waste, we put the waste in the dustbin but and think it as wasted

But the act is that we do not see the next level on the waste consumption, that is the waste we think is eaten or fed on by smaller animals like flies , insects , bacteria or microorganisms.

There is no degree of ritual-ness involved in the food chain, because the food chain is itself THE RITUAL OF NATURE , eat others and at the end get eaten, the sweet flow of energy and physical transformation,

There is no animal that practices or fears god except us, there is just UN NOTICEABLY being part of the PHYSICS BIOLOGY and CHEMISTRY ritual,  which has its own code of balance running in the background and all you have to do on earth is think about YOUR OWN SURVIVAL.

Now humans developed the idea of culinary , producing food, livestock and veggies, which is apart from the wild world of animals.

This is because of the evolution of art, because there is no more local war. 

Now before we used to eat animals of the wild and grains and veggies of the wild. and we used to bury our body after death, which returned the energy collected from the universe back to it.

But as we evolved we had rituals in every little thing, we started burning bodies or burring them in coffins,

And on the other hand we were evolved that we started producing our own livestock and veggies, grains and consuming them,

So it is like we are breaking ourselves from the cycle of the wild,

and creating our own cycle and balance of life and death

and in that we are including rituals,

TO SAFEGUARD OURSELVES

BECAUSE WE ARE WORRIED WE ARE NOT GIVING BACK TO THE EARTH THE ENERGY WE CONSUMED FROM IT BY COFFINING OR BURNING RITUALS AFTER DEATH.

if you live in the wild, you will never find the need of any ritual but just to live free !

[interested]

1 hour ago, Uorigins said:

I don't think so, 

Does your response relate to my statement you quoted in any way.

Thanks for the down point by the way 

Edited March 12, 2018 by interested