Ten oz Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 6 hours ago, pavelcherepan said: Well, that last quote is a bit uncalled for. I'm Russian and I was very certain that the result would be as we saw. I didn't vote myself, I was in the middle of nowhere and couldn't get to Melbourne in time to cast my vote, but for the lack of better options, and "against all" option for that matter, I guess I'd vote for Putin as well. Thing is that Putin didn't really have any opponents worthy of mention. I know a lot of people in Russia, who support Navalny and would vote for him, but he was not allowed to run for president. This is one of Putin's strengths, he's very good at getting rid of anyone who might challenge his authority and as a result has no need to forge election results, even though, if need be, he could. There are some other politicians in Russia who are held in very high regard in public opinion and could be worthy contenders, namely the Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and the current Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu. Both of Sergeys are very popular; Lavrov is held in high esteem for his intelligence and pro-Russia political views, even if not as nationalist as Putin is. Shoigu was for a long time Emergency Services minister and was highly popular in this role and in the current role also gets a lot of pro points from Russia's involvement in Syria among others. Thing is, though, the reason these two are successful government officials is that they know their place. They will not challenge their boss, even though they could put up a good fight. I would certainly vote for Lavrov, had he gone for president. Maybe they will go for the next presidency, when Putin won't be able to enter the lists. We'' have to wait and see... six more years. Can't remember who said it, but the quote goes something like - "Here in US we had many bad presidents, but when it happened we sort of just waited for them to not be our president any more". In essence, that's the state of things in Russia nowadays. Mind you, Putin is not the worst it could be, we could have another drunk for a president. What part of the McCain quote do you think is uncalled for? You basically laid out the case for why it was a sham election by pointing out strong challengers either weren't allowed to run or survive by knowing their place. That seems perfectly in line with McCain sentiment. As for waiting bad presidents out in the U.S. term limits unsure they only get 8yrs at most. Putin has had power in Russia for 18yrs now.
Strange Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 6 hours ago, pavelcherepan said: I'm Russian I didn't know that. (I had provisionally guessed Polish possibly, just based on "Pavel". Sorry about that!) 6 hours ago, pavelcherepan said: Thing is that Putin didn't really have any opponents worthy of mention. I know a lot of people in Russia, who support Navalny and would vote for him, but he was not allowed to run for president. This is one of Putin's strengths, he's very good at getting rid of anyone who might challenge his authority It seems odd that this doesn't seem to cause very much criticism within Russia. It seems to be just accepted as more evidence of his strength.
Silvestru Posted March 22, 2018 Author Posted March 22, 2018 10 minutes ago, Strange said: I didn't know that. (I had provisionally guessed Polish possibly, just based on "Pavel". Sorry about that!) The polish version is spelled Paweł. Ok ignore the weird L but in polish they spell it with W. Spoiler
Sensei Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, pavelcherepan said: Mind you, Putin is not the worst it could be, we could have another drunk for a president. Better drunkard, than murderer.... Edited March 22, 2018 by Sensei
MigL Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Agree sensei... I still remember B Yeltsin standing on top of a tank when he and the Russian people stopped the military uprising in '91. I wonder which side V Putin would have been on. Seems that a few months after the 100th anniversary, Russia has a new Tsar. Wonder how long till the next people's revolution.
pavelcherepan Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ten oz said: What part of the McCain quote do you think is uncalled for? There's a difference between "denying right to vote in a free and fair election" and having a free and fair election that you're certain to win. Technically speaking, it was not Putin who denied Navalny a right to go for president, but Justice system and constitution. 1 hour ago, Strange said: I didn't know that. (I had provisionally guessed Polish possibly, just based on "Pavel". Sorry about that!) Oh, no worries, I have Russian/Ukrainian/Polish roots. 1 hour ago, Strange said: It seems odd that this doesn't seem to cause very much criticism within Russia. It seems to be just accepted as more evidence of his strength. Well, historically, Russians do love a strong hand, but more than that after decades of turmoil, Russians love stability. Had someone like Navalny come to power, there would be drastic changes and no one is certain it would be for the better. 45 minutes ago, Sensei said: Better drunkard, than murderer.... Not sure which country you're from but few presidents/PMs of major countries don't have blood on their hands. Edited March 22, 2018 by pavelcherepan
Sensei Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, MigL said: Wonder how long till the next people's revolution. There must be first really really bad, to people's uprising.. Lack of food, or money for food, no jobs etc. etc. 24 minutes ago, pavelcherepan said: Not sure which country you're from but few presidents/PMs of major countries don't have blood on their hands. So we can classify them by how much they enjoyed it.. 24 minutes ago, pavelcherepan said: Had someone like Navalny come to power, there would be drastic changes and no one is certain it would be for the better. He would not attack Crimea, nor attack Donetsk nor Lugansk.. There would be no sanctions (and counter-sanctions, restrictions on food import)... Edited March 22, 2018 by Sensei
Ten oz Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, pavelcherepan said: There's a difference between "denying right to vote in a free and fair election" and having a free and fair election that you're certain to win. Technically speaking, it was not Putin who denied Navalny a right to go for president, but Justice system and constitution. The justice system wasn't acting in Putin's interest? Navalny has been arrested multiple times for holding rallies and protests, thing Politician commonly do in free & fair elections. European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) determined he wasn't provided a fair hearing on his early corruption charges in 2013. Seems to me Putin simply used the legal system to suppress his ability to mount a campaign.
Silvestru Posted March 22, 2018 Author Posted March 22, 2018 8 minutes ago, Sensei said: So we can classify them by how much they enjoyed it.. pavelcherepan is being very open for a constructive discussion and frankly I admire his objectiveness. Sensei, don't bring appeal to emotion into this talk. I want to hear Pavel tell us his thoughts from his perspective as a Russian citizen. 1
pavelcherepan Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Sensei said: He would not attack Crimea, nor attack Donetsk nor Lugansk.. There would be no sanctions (and counter-sanctions, restrictions on food import)... It already happened... Had Navalny withdrawn from Crimea, there might be an uprising. Overall, people are extremely supportive of taking back Crimea, or whatever else you wish to call it. 22 minutes ago, Ten oz said: The justice system wasn't acting in Putin's interest? I said "technically". By constitution, Justice is an independent branch of Russian government. 22 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Navalny has been arrested multiple times for holding rallies and protests, False. He's been arrested and tried for business fraud. Edited March 22, 2018 by pavelcherepan
Sensei Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, pavelcherepan said: 39 minutes ago, Sensei said: He would not attack Crimea, nor attack Donetsk nor Lugansk.. There would be no sanctions (and counter-sanctions, restrictions on food import)... It already happened... Had Navalny withdrawn from Crimea, there might be an uprising. Regardless who is at charge, returning Crimea and giving up on Donetsk and Lugansk for real (instead of freezing conflict like right now), is the only way atmosphere between Russia and west world countries can be fixed.. Fear of nationalist uprising.. I should better not comment.. Edited March 22, 2018 by Sensei
MigL Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Business fraud ??? I find that laughable, since the 'orchestrator' of his conviction, V Putin, has used the office of Presidency to make himself the reputed richest man in the world, with an estimated net worth of 200 Billion dollars. He is certainly the President of the new Russian Oligarchy. What of the rest of the people ?
pavelcherepan Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Sensei said: Fear of nationalist uprising.. I should better not comment.. Well, maybe not an uprising, but it would be a political suicide. If any president gave Crimea back to Ukraine, they most certainly wouldn't be re-elected. Most Russians consider and have always considered Crimea to be an inherent part of Russia, it would be really hard to convince them otherwise. Would sanctions be lifted? Possibly. But how long would that take? US lifted cold-war era trade restriction (Jackson-Vanek amendment) over twenty years after dissolution of USSR. No reason to assume that largely anti-Russia senate would go and lift sanctions immediately, but people would want immediate positive outcomes if Crimea was ceased. 7 minutes ago, MigL said: I find that laughable, since the 'orchestrator' of his conviction, V Putin, has used the office of Presidency to make himself the reputed richest man in the world, with an estimated net worth of 200 Billion dollars. It's really hard to prove that, unless you want to use a tabloid such as Daily Mail as a reputable source. Edited March 22, 2018 by pavelcherepan
MigL Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) Google 'V Putin net worth' to see how many credible sources you get ( and not one Daily Mail ). He and his oligarch buddies are billionaires. How are you doing ? Edited March 22, 2018 by MigL
pavelcherepan Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, MigL said: Google 'V Putin net worth' to see how many credible sources you get ( and not one Daily Mail ). Well, I'm reading and seeing things like: Quote Bill Browder, a former fund manager in Russia and major critic of Putin, estimated the president's net worth at $200 billion, On the other hand: Quote Forbes, the premier chronicler of the world’s wealthiest, doesn’t include Putin on its list of billionaires. In 2015, the magazine said it couldn’t verify enough assets. Forbes is a very credible source for wealth figures so if they can't verify assets, this argument is not very solid. I don't doubt that in ~20 years in various high offices Putin did make a nice chunk of money, but $200 billion? Such wealth would be really hard to hide.
Ten oz Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 1 hour ago, pavelcherepan said: False. He's been arrested and tried for business fraud. He has been arrested for protests and rallies: Quote MOSCOW — Russian police wrestled opposition leader Alexei Navalny into a police vehicle on Sunday, moments after he appeared at a rally to urge voters to boycott what he said would be a rigged presidential election in March. Video footage posted on social media showed Navalny appear on Moscow's main thoroughfare to join several hundred supporters taking part in the protest a few hundred yards from the Kremlin. Authorities had said the protest was illegal. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/world/amp/russian-opposition-leader-alexei-navalny-arrested-moscow-rally-n841736#ampshare=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-opposition-leader-alexei-navalny-arrested-moscow-rally-n841736 And to the point about the nature of those arrests: Quote STRASBOURG, France -- Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalnyon Wednesday appeared at a hearing at the European Court of Human Rights into whether Russian authorities violated his rights through numerous arrests. The court ruled last year that seven of those arrests were unlawful and ordered Russia to pay 63,000 euros (about $67,000) in compensation, but the Russian government appealed. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/russia-alexei-navalny-vladimir-putin-critic-european-court-human-rights/#ampshare=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-alexei-navalny-vladimir-putin-critic-european-court-human-rights/
pavelcherepan Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 21 minutes ago, Ten oz said: He has been arrested for protests and rallies: But that's not what ultimately dismissed him from running for president.
Ten oz Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, pavelcherepan said: But that's not what ultimately dismissed him from running for president. Right, that wasn't really my point though. My point was that he has been harassed by the govt through numerous arrests and questionable charges. Yes, some charges were dismissed and others weren't but is there really any confidence in the system?
StringJunky Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Right, that wasn't really my point though. My point was that he has been harassed by the govt through numerous arrests and questionable charges. Yes, some charges were dismissed and others weren't but is there really any confidence in the system? There can't be.This Reuters report is one example. Quote Some of the most vivid reporting came from the southern Russian town of Ust-Djeguta where Reuters reporters recorded images of 17 people voting multiple times. Seven of them either denied voting more than once or declined to comment. Reuters reporters were posted at 12 polling stations across five regions of Russia, where they tracked voting without interruption from the moment polls opened at 8 a.m. until after voting finished at 8 p.m. and election officials completed the count. The objective was to witness every person who walked into a polling station and cast a ballot, and then to check that figure against the official turnout. Last weekend’s election was the third time Reuters used this method to cover an election in Russia. To make sure our tally was accurate, our reporters used mechanical counters, similar to the ones airline crews sometimes use to track passengers as they pass through the cabin. In last year’s parliamentary election, the local election commission in the Bashkortostan region in central Russia claimed that one of these counters was a radioactive device and tried to have the reporter ejected from the polling station. The reporter stood his ground. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-backstory-russiaelection/counting-votes-in-russias-presidential-election-idUSKBN1GY1BM
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