Rinse or not rinse?

[Klpetrak]

Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for Sodium lauryl sulfate gives the following information:

 

Section 11: Toxicological Information WARNING: THE LC50 VALUES HEREUNDER ARE ESTIMATED ON THE BASIS OF A 4-HOUR EXPOSURE. Acute oral toxicity (LD50): 1288 mg/kg [Rat.]. Acute toxicity of the dust (LC50): >3900 mg/m 1 hours [Rat]. 3MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for bacteria and/or yeast. May cause damage to the following organs: skin.Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (sensitizer).Special Remarks on Toxicity to Animals:Lowest Published Lethal Dose: LDL [Rabbit] - Route: Skin; Dose: 10000 mg/kgSpecial Remarks on Chronic Effects on Humans: May cause adverse reproductive effects based on animal test data. No human data found.Special Remarks on other Toxic Effects on Humans:Acute Potential Health Effects: Skin: Causes mild to moderate skin irritation. May cause allergic reaction (dermatitis) Eyes: Causes moderate eye irritation. Inhalation: Material is irritating to mucous membranes and upper respiratory tract. May cause allergic respiratory reaction. Ingestion: Causes gastrointestinal tract irritation with nausea, vomiting, hypermotility, diarrhea, and bloating. May also affect behavior (ataxia, somnolence), and cardiovascular system. Chronic Potential Health Effects: Skin: Prolonged or repeated skin contact may cause allergic dermatitis. Ingestion: Prolonged or repeated ingestion may affect the liver. Inhalation: Prolonged or repeated inhalation may cause allergic respiratory reaction (asthma).

 (From: http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925002)

 It does make sense not to ingest detergents unnecessarily. 

 Further, there are several other components in washing up liquids that are likely to have additional undesirable effects on health. 

 To rinse or not to rinse? It’s your decision. 

 

[Strange]

4 minutes ago, Klpetrak said:

It does make sense not to ingest detergents unnecessarily. 

 Further, there are several other components in washing up liquids that are likely to have additional undesirable effects on health. 

Did you look at the doses that can cause unpleasant symptoms? I don't think that the tiny amount left on a plate is going to have much effect.

 

[studiot]

Have you ever tasted beer in a glass that has not been properly rinsed in the pub?

[DrP]

I always rinse off any soapy bubbles. My mother and father used to moan about wasting water but we were told at school (in the 1980's) to rinse off any residual soap to avoid the possibilities of throat/mouth cancers from residual detergents. They said it was not definite, but different people use different amounts of soap and to be safe there should be a rinse.

....saying this  -  it wouldn't be the first time what I was taught at school turned out to be wrong after I repeated it here. .lol. It makes sense to me to rinse off any soap from my plates and glasses etc anyway.

22 minutes ago, Strange said:

 I don't think that the tiny amount left on a plate is going to have much effect.

 

What about after 30 years of not rinsing your plate?

[Strange]

7 minutes ago, DrP said:

What about after 30 years of not rinsing your plate?

You put a few cc of washing up liquid in several litres of water; a small percentage of that is sodium laurel sulphate (which is demonised on the web for some reason). Most of the liquid left on the plate runs off or is wiped off when your dry them. I doubt it is significant.

I would be more worried about the oils, food residues and bacteria in the water than soap.

[DrP]

1 minute ago, Strange said:

...sodium laurel sulphate (which is demonised on the web for some reason).

Its a PROCESSED CHEMICAL!!!11!2!!"!!1!  lol -    I bet the people who make the noise about it do not know that it is considered an organic molecule.

We are having a serious issue now with EU REACH law  -  they are classifying TiO2 as a carcinogen...  which is serious for paints..  they are basing the classification on TiO2 powder injected at overload directly into rats back in the 80s. I have no problem with labelling things as carcinogens if they are...  but any non soluble dusts injected into the blood at high doses is bad... I would like to see a modern repeat of the test to make sure. 

Soon - EVERYTHING you buy will have a carcinogen sticker on it...  problem here is - what happens when something is properly carcinogenic? Will people ignore the labels because they
think that is as safe as washing up liquid or white paint?

[Strange]

1 minute ago, DrP said:

Its a PROCESSED CHEMICAL!!!11!2!!"!!1!  lol -   

Yes, I have seen people screaming that "it is used industrial cleaning solutions" (er, so is water).

2 minutes ago, DrP said:

We are having a serious issue now with EU REACH law

Hmmm... it seems the policy is that unless it can be proven to be harmless it will be labelled as "possibly carcinogenic". 

[DrP]

8 minutes ago, Strange said:

Hmmm... it seems the policy is that unless it can be proven to be harmless it will be labelled as "possibly carcinogenic". 

They are pushing for higher classification though I think - this is what I was told at a coating meeting last year anyway. The classification is for pure powdered TiO2 as a breathable dust. The guys in our factory have used it for many years - sometimes they have even got it on their faces and haven't been wearing their masks. What the law is pressing for is for us to label PAINT tins as carcinogenic... even though the TiO2 is bound in the paint. The only danger I can see is if a piece of painted wood was sawn and some dust was liberated...  which I would put money on not being enough exposure to give you cancer unless you were doing it every day and actively bending over to snort up the dust from the sawing....  so why the need to put it on a paint tin..........  and why aren't any of my workers dead after 20 years of exposure to it? No-one in the paint industry has ever died of TiO2 induced cancer as far as I can tell. A painter will be well safe from it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CharonY]

18 minutes ago, DrP said:

What the law is pressing for is for us to label PAINT tins as carcinogenic...

I am not sure where you got this, but the only information I saw is that TiO2 is classified as suspected carcinogen when inhaled (ultimately it is placed in category 2)  I have not seen any proposals for legislature changes as a result. The common assumption at this point is that there are no expected changes in usage, as with other substances that have been categorized as such.

Now under Reach there are regulations that kick in, which include:

- if more than 1% of the compound is in a given product, it requires a hazard pictogram. I assume that applies to your cans, which basically requires to print "suspected of causing cancer on it (or something to that effect, not just carcinogenic, which would apply only for higher classifcations)". The reason why inhalation is not listed specifically is because they are only allowed to add that if it has been shown that no other routes are possible.

if more than 0.1% of the compound is used, the manufacturer must provide safety information free of charge

There are no additional provisions e.g. for worker safety for cat 2 chemicals (not sure whether they may revise safe occupational levels).

[Klpetrak]

How about all the other components in a pot of paint, such as solvents, surfactants, dyes, etc?

[StringJunky]

23 minutes ago, DrP said:

They are pushing for higher classification though I think - this is what I was told at a coating meeting last year anyway. The classification is for pure powdered TiO2 as a breathable dust. The guys in our factory have used it for many years - sometimes they have even got it on their faces and haven't been wearing their masks. What the law is pressing for is for us to label PAINT tins as carcinogenic... even though the TiO2 is bound in the paint. The only danger I can see is if a piece of painted wood was sawn and some dust was liberated...  which I would put money on not being enough exposure to give you cancer unless you were doing it every day and actively bending over to snort up the dust from the sawing....  so why the need to put it on a paint tin..........  and why aren't any of my workers dead after 20 years of exposure to it? No-one in the paint industry has ever died of TiO2 induced cancer as far as I can tell. A painter will be well safe from it.

The SDS for TiO2 suggests, to me, possibly an occupational hazard in the pure powered form but not an acute one. Any airborne particulate is a potential physical obstructant to the lungs.

[studiot]

52 minutes ago, DrP said:

but any non soluble dusts injected into the blood at high doses is bad... I would like to see a modern repeat of the test to make sure

Of course repeat tests are good; tests of variation of parameters are even better.

Note well that many carcinogenic substances are cumulative. That is the body does not excrete them, so as Tesco says

Every Little Helps.

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by studiot

[DrP]

21 hours ago, Klpetrak said:

How about all the other components in a pot of paint, such as solvents, surfactants, dyes, etc?

What about them? They all have their own individual Safety Data Sheets and the SDS for the final product and the label is written accordingly. The SDSs for the final products have strict rules for the writing of them. We have had strict tightenings on the limits that you use to declare or not the contents of a product on the SDSs from the new REACH laws over the last few years  -  mainly this is a very good thing and it is standardized across the whole EU now and everything is 'safer'...   although it is almost too much when you have to label a harmless mixture as a carcinogen when there is no risk in using the product and the risk pertaining to the raw material is under question.

[MigL]

Although my educational background is Physics, I've worked with dangerous chemicals for over 30 yrs.
I remember doing involved documents and packaging of PCBs, for a one-time shipment to a high temperature incinerator in Western Canada, about 28 yrs ago at my first job in a chemical plant.
The Polish guy ( new immigrant of a few years ) I was working with said...
" Why so much trouble. In Poland we wash hands in PCBs."

[StringJunky]

55 minutes ago, MigL said:

Although my educational background is Physics, I've worked with dangerous chemicals for over 30 yrs.
I remember doing involved documents and packaging of PCBs, for a one-time shipment to a high temperature incinerator in Western Canada, about 28 yrs ago at my first job in a chemical plant.
The Polish guy ( new immigrant of a few years ) I was working with said...
" Why so much trouble. In Poland we wash hands in PCBs."

At first, i thought you were talking about Printed Circuit Boards.  

[DrP]

Yea - people used to wash their hands in carbon tetra chloride.... until workers got kept getting skin cancer over their hands...  (Hmm - this is what my school teacher said anyway  -  I have quoted her before and been wrong :-/) -  no-one has ever died of getting cancer from TiO2 as far as I am aware.

[Klpetrak]

I posted the initial question; now I see that the ensuing discussion has reached the point of being irrelevant. Is there a way to terminate discussions on this site?

[DrP]

2 minutes ago, Klpetrak said:

I posted the initial question; now I see that the ensuing discussion has reached the point of being irrelevant. Is there a way to terminate discussions on this site?

It's hardly irrelevant imo. Things in everyday use that are now banned and considered carcinogens. Do you think soaps should be banned based on what you read on the SDS? I don't - but I don't want to eat them either.

Anyhow - you know the doses that are dangerous from the data on the SDS that you posted in the OP. Some people may well be more sensitive than others but it doesn't look as though anyone actually knows for sure.  I, personally, would rinse it all off just to be safe and to ensure a better eating/drinking experience. I gave you my vote   -  Rinse.

[Klpetrak]

Thank you very much! I agree. 

The way you responded should be implemented as a general approach on this site. What I mean that when commenting on  a topic, one should "cast a vote" - i.e., saying YES, NO, or ABSTAIN.

This way, one would get an overall feel for how the topic / question is being seen - i.e., it would be similar to how a formal debate is usually conducted.

Perhaps you can suggest this to this site organizers? I would definitely support this idea.

Thanks again.

[Strange]

You could create a poll with those options.

Or you could ask people to use the up/down votes to show if they agree or not. 

[DrP]

9 minutes ago, Klpetrak said:

What I mean that when commenting on  a topic, one should "cast a vote" - i.e., saying YES, NO, or ABSTAIN.

This way, one would get an overall feel for how the topic / question is being seen - i.e., it would be similar to how a formal debate is usually conducted.

 

The problem with this idea  (if you will allow me to play advocate) is that it allows opinions to be thrown in from all angles. With toxicity or carcinogenity we have figures listed on a sheet that state what is or isn't toxic and at what doses - people's opinions are irrelevant as the figures have been measured an quoted. With YOUR question though it isn't as open or shut as "Yes, rinse or you will get cancer of the throat" or "Don't bother it is safe" - I do not know if it is completely clear - thus the discussion...

Also - as Strange just beat me to saying  -  if you want opinions then you CAN set up a poll.  

[Klpetrak]

Thank you both; I am new to this site and did not know this facility is already in place.

[DrP]

On ‎20‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 3:04 PM, Strange said:

You put a few cc of washing up liquid in several litres of water; a small percentage of that is sodium laurel sulphate (which is demonised on the web for some reason). Most of the liquid left on the plate runs off or is wiped off when your dry them. I doubt it is significant.

Just to play advocate here 2 points spring to mind:

- Different people use different amounts.

- Although diluted when the water evaporates you can be left with a concentrated residue.

 

I used to moan at my brother for leaving plates face up so residue would be left on a plate that is left to dry (and it made drying with a cloth harder).  Laying it 'down' means water runs off and there is less there to leave a residue and it is easier to dry with a cloth because there is less water to remove.

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by DrP

[Strange]

2 minutes ago, DrP said:

Different people use different amounts.

Tell me about it. A cousin came to stay and helpfully insisted on doing the washing up after each meal. He got through most of a bottle of washing up liquid in a weekend. 

Can’t remember if he rinsed or not ...

 

[Moontanman]

I Am Allergic to sodium laurel sulphate, it's in nearly everything soapy, I use Ivory soap (99/100%) pure! I used to wash my hair with it but I found a rinse that untangle this fuzz ball on my head and suppresses the itching as long as I don't wash my hair more than once a week or so...  I worked with TiO2 for 25 years, I am doomed i guess...