The Second Lightest Color

[Bender]

2 hours ago, Mehmet Saygın said:

Wrong example, because tetrachromats have an extra cone (for UV light detection) which is taken part in UV range of electromagnetic spectrum

I'm not sure where you got this info. Are you sure it is about human tetrachromacy?

From the wiki article:

"One study suggested that 2–3% of the world's women might have the type of fourth cone whose sensitivity peak is between the standard red and green cones"

" Humans cannot see ultraviolet light directly because the lens of the eye blocks most light in the wavelength range of 300–400 nm"

Especially this last bit makes it unlikely that your info is about humans.

[koti]

1 minute ago, Mehmet Saygın said:

I found also an extra graphs which supports my idea 

Its difficult to read this graph without context, this graph represents that yellow behaves in a certain way in relation to other colors under some unspecified conditions. 
What exactly is your idea?

[Mehmet Saygın]

6 minutes ago, koti said:

Which slide number? (the small pink numbering at the bottom of each slide)

At 11 this graph

3 minutes ago, koti said:

Its difficult to read this graph without context, this graph represents that yellow behaves in a certain way in relation to other colors under some unspecified conditions. 
What exactly is your idea?

y-coordinate of graph is representing reflectance function which depends lambda(wavelength) and x-coordinate is wavelength. The area under each function gives us the total reflectance of colored sample.

[koti]

1 minute ago, Mehmet Saygın said:

At 11 this graph

 

This slide is just showing that a perfect set of inks in a printer (they do not exist) would behave like the mathematical model states. The next slide/graph shows that there is a discrepancy between those hypothetical, perfect inks and the ones that we have to work with in the real world. 

[Mehmet Saygın]

2 minutes ago, koti said:

This slide is just showing that a perfect set of inks in a printer (they do not exist) would behave like the mathematical model states. The next slide/graph shows that there is a discrepancy between those hypothetical, perfect inks and the ones that we have to work with in the real world. 

https://www.osapublishing.org/josaa/fulltext.cfm?uri=josaa-32-9-1661

[koti]

4 minutes ago, Mehmet Saygın said:

https://www.osapublishing.org/josaa/fulltext.cfm?uri=josaa-32-9-1661

ok, I read the abstract, its about some laser printing technology where color prediction is challenging - how does this relate to what we are talking about? 
As to your OP - Yellow, just like any other color is a sensation which happens in the brain. Colors are managed by using models and depending on which model you use the results will vary so a statement that "Yellow is the second lightest color" doesn't make any sense unless you put it into some context. 

[Mehmet Saygın]

4 minutes ago, koti said:

Colors are managed by using models and depending on which model you use the results will vary so a statement that "Yellow is the second lightest color" doesn't make any sense unless you put it into some context. 

You can examine the color model whatever you want, yellow has the highest L* (lightness) value except white. It means that yellow is the second lightest color and nearest color to white in "lightness" criteria. I have searced this topic when posted this question. The color models verify my idea. You can make a research lightness value for color hues, you will also see that. So "Yellow is the second lightest color" makes a lot of things 

[koti]

5 minutes ago, Mehmet Saygın said:

You can examine the color model whatever you want, yellow has the highest L* (lightness) value except white. It means that yellow is the second lightest color and nearest color to white in "lightness" criteria. I have searced this topic when posted this question. The color models verify my idea. You can make a research lightness value for color hues, you will also see that. So "Yellow is the second lightest color" makes a lot of things 

L (Lightness) being a set of values in the LaB color model I presume you are refering to CIE LaB? Which value of yellow are you refering to? I’m sure you can imagine a very dark shade of yellow which will be closer to black than to white...in some color model.

[Mehmet Saygın]

7 minutes ago, koti said:

L (Lightness) being a set of values in the LaB color model I presume you are refering to CIE LaB? Which value of yellow are you refering to? I’m sure you can imagine a very dark shade of yellow which will be closer to black than to white...in some color model.

When I have asked this question,I have describe like this so this question is meaningless.  "If we think about all possible color hues and these colors are saturated ( pure hues without lighter or darker shades )" 

You can also look the other color models https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_model all of them will justify me, I am sure 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Mehmet Saygın

[John Cuthber]

Has anyone defined "lightest" and "colour" in this thread yet?

[koti]

11 minutes ago, Mehmet Saygın said:

When I have asked this question,I have describe like this so this question is meaningless.  "If we think about all possible color hues and these colors are saturated ( pure hues without lighter or darker shades )" 

You can also look the other color models https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_model all of them will justify me, I am sure 

 

 

Okay, let me see if I understand  you correctly - Are you looking for the closest color to white which isn't white? 

4 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Has anyone defined "lightest" and "colour" in this thread yet?

Exactly.

Edited April 11, 2018 by koti

[Mehmet Saygın]

44 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Has anyone defined "lightest" and "colour" in this thread yet?

Thank you, I asked "lightest" and "color" relationship but the topic became a "color perception" concept. Finally someone understand what I mean 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Mehmet Saygın

[koti]

5 minutes ago, Mehmet Saygın said:

Thank you, I asked "lightest" and "color" relationship but the topic became a "color perception" concept. Finally someone underdstand what I mean 

The relationship between "lightest" and "color" does not exist without working with a specific color model. This relationship will differ between various color models because color models are not interchangeable.

[Mehmet Saygın]

30 minutes ago, koti said:

The relationship between "lightest" and "color" does not exist without working with a specific color model. This relationship will differ between various color models because color models are not interchangeable.

You can base on all color models whatever you want,all of them have a similar backstage. 

Okay, let me see if I understand  you correctly - Are you looking for the closest color to white which isn't white? 

yes.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Mehmet Saygın

[koti]

1 hour ago, koti said:

Okay, let me see if I understand  you correctly - Are you looking for the closest color to white which isn't white? 

 

36 minutes ago, Mehmet Saygın said:

yes.

You can all color models whatever you want,all of them have a similar backstage. 

As we already established and I hope you came to agreeing, Color is a sensation which happens entirely in our brain so the answer to this question will vary from person to person. An experienced offset machinist will be able to distinguish variation in colors which you can't, he/she will be able to tell a difference between two colors which look exactly the same to you or me. 
As for color models, they do not have a "similar backstage" in a sense that colors vary and they do vary a lot depending on the color model and technology used. If you still have second thoughts, print a yellow color of your choosing on your printer and compare with that "same" color on your monitor - sRGB will never look the same as CMYK. It's not only the color models that differ...two TV's at a store showing the same signal will display different colors and its very much visible in spite of both TV's using the same color model - sRGB. Two different printers (both using CMYK color model) will give you very different output when you compare printouts. 

Your question only makes sense if you set it into context, that context is using a certain color model. And when you do that, other issues start to arise.
 

Edited April 11, 2018 by koti

[Mehmet Saygın]

42 minutes ago, koti said:

 

As we already established and I hope you came to agreeing, Color is a sensation which happens entirely in our brain so the answer to this question will vary from person to person. An experienced offset machinist will be able to distinguish variation in colors which you can't, he/she will be able to tell a difference between two colors which look exactly the same to you or me. 
As for color models, they do not have a "similar backstage" in a sense that colors vary and they do vary a lot depending on the color model and technology used. If you still have second thoughts, print a yellow color of your choosing on your printer and compare with that "same" color on your monitor - sRGB will never look the same as CMYK. It's not only the color models that differ...two TV's at a store showing the same signal will display different colors and its very much visible in spite of both TV's using the same color model - sRGB. Two different printers (both using CMYK color model) will give you very different output when you compare printouts. 

Your question only makes sense if you set it into context, that context is using a certain color model. And when you do that, other issues start to arise.
 

Has anyone defined "lightest" and "colour" in this thread yet?

You will still change the main topic,this informations don't give any idea about what I asked.

27 minutes ago, Mehmet Saygın said:

Has anyone defined "lightest" and "colour" in this thread yet?

You will still change the main topic,this informations doesn't give any idea about what I asked.

I said you can look all color models whatever you want,the lightness value of yellow higher than any other colors (pure hues i.e red green blue violet cyan) except white which makes it the second lightest color and nearest to white.

27 minutes ago, Mehmet Saygın said:

Has anyone defined "lightest" and "colour" in this thread yet?

You will still change the main topic,this informations don't give any idea about what I asked.

I said you can look all color models whatever you want,the lightness value of yellow higher than any other colors (pure hues i.e red green blue violet cyan) except white which makes it the second lightest color and nearest to white.

Absolutely,there is a little difference between two different printers,but the idea is the same,yellow is the lightest and blue (or violet) is the darkest hue except white and black

42 minutes ago, koti said:

Okay, let me see if I understand  you correctly - Are you looking for the closest color to white which isn't white?

You did understood what I asked,but you still give a different kind of answer which are only philosophical. I want to learn answer of above question. We can evaluate each printer,each monitor,each television,each color model or what if in itself. There is no need to comparison them, but the important point is this. I want to learn according to these examples the second lightest color and closest color to white. The answer is yellow. WHY ?

49 minutes ago, koti said:

 

As we already established and I hope you came to agreeing, Color is a sensation which happens entirely in our brain so the answer to this question will vary from person to person. An experienced offset machinist will be able to distinguish variation in colors which you can't, he/she will be able to tell a difference between two colors which look exactly the same to you or me. 
As for color models, they do not have a "similar backstage" in a sense that colors vary and they do vary a lot depending on the color model and technology used. If you still have second thoughts, print a yellow color of your choosing on your printer and compare with that "same" color on your monitor - sRGB will never look the same as CMYK. It's not only the color models that differ...two TV's at a store showing the same signal will display different colors and its very much visible in spite of both TV's using the same color model - sRGB. Two different printers (both using CMYK color model) will give you very different output when you compare printouts. 

Your question only makes sense if you set it into context, that context is using a certain color model. And when you do that, other issues start to arise.
 

If you going quote like this kind of philosophical answer, please don't quote. I need a "real" scientific approximation which you can not do.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Mehmet Saygın

[koti]

20 hours ago, Mehmet Saygın said:

I want to learn according to these examples the second lightest color and closest color to white. The answer is yellow. WHY ?

The answer is not „Yellow”, at least not a specific yellow all the time, the answer depends on the color model used and personal conditioning. As to „why”, its because that's how color management and color perception in humans works. This has been layed out in this thread multiple times.

Quote

If you going quote like this kind of philosophical answer, please don't quote. I need a "real" scientific approximation which you can not do.

Maybe this can help:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow

 

In RGB the closest shade of yellow to white is:
R-255
G-255
B-254

In CMYK the closest yellow to white is: 
C-0
M-0
Y-1
K-0

In Lab the closest yellow to white is:
L-100
a-0
b-0

All three yellows above differ between each other yet all are the closest yellow to white...within their color systems. 

If you measure a certain „yellow” with a spectrophotometer you will get different results depending on whether its a coated piece of metal that you are measuring or a TV display. You might get 576nm on the piece of metal and 588nm on the display as a result.

If you try to determine the answer to your question without using a color management system, both the question and the answers are meaningless because you will get different results from person to person.

Does that make it clear?

I would appreciate a lighter tone of dialog from you, thanks. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by koti

[John Cuthber]

22 hours ago, Mehmet Saygın said:

Thank you, I asked "lightest" and "color" relationship but the topic became a "color perception" concept. Finally someone understand what I mean 

I don't know what you mean.

That's exactly why I asked for the definitions.

[Bender]

What is a "pure" hue? White certainly isn't, and yellow rarely is.

I'm particularly confused about this question with relation to computer screens, since these definitely don't sent out any "pure" yellow.

If you forget the "pure" part, it is a bit unfair to compare blue and yellow, since blue has only one third of the light contributing, while yellow has two thirds.

[Mehmet Saygın]

3 hours ago, koti said:

In RGB the closest shade of yellow to white is:
R-255
G-255
B-254

In CMYK the closest yellow to white is: 
C-0
M-0
Y-1
K-0

In Lab the closest yellow to white is:
L-100
a-0
b-0

You still do not understand me. I want to comparison red,green,blue,yellow,cyan and magenta in RGB,CMYK or Lab which are not lighter or darker shades as you describe. When you started to quote this topic,din't you look my attached picture ? You can look the values in RGB,CMYK or Lab values of my added picture with the aid of Paint program. 

You don't have an enough information to prove my question because I am expert if compared to your knowledge about this topic. I am sure that I am better than you about color managemant, because I am a software engineer for 30 years and color lab space is my profession, I am glad you do not try to teach me. On the other hand, I don't want to compare yellows to white, l want to compare pure yellow, pure red, pure blue, pure green,pure cyan,pure magenta within themselves according to white,without the most lightest or darkest shade of these colors.

It's really annoying that you still do not understand, I  am happier if you do not quote anymore.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Mehmet Saygın

[koti]

26 minutes ago, Mehmet Saygın said:

You still do not understand me. I want to comparison red,green,blue,yellow,cyan and magenta in RGB,CMYK or Lab which are not lighter or darker shades as you describe. When you started to quote this topic,din't you look my attached picture ? You can look the values in RGB,CMYK or Lab values of my added picture with the aid of Paint program. 

You don't have an enough information to prove my question because I am expert if compared to your knowledge about this topic. I am sure that I am better than you about color managemant, because I am a software engineer for 30 years and color lab space is my profession, I am glad you do not try to teach me. On the other hand, I don't want to compare yellows to white, l want to compare pure yellow, pure red, pure blue, pure green,pure cyan,pure magenta within themselves according to white,without the most lightest or darker shades of these colors.

It's really annoying that you still do not understand, I  am happier if you do not quote anymore.

There is no such thing as pure yellow or pure green or pure any color unless you use a reference point (a color model) There is no way of comparing any color without working from within a color model. This has been explained to you in this thread multiple times ad nauseam. As for the rest of your post, I really suggest you step down from that rude and ignorant tone. This forum is for learning, if you refuse to do so and stick to personal attacks instead, you won’t get very far here.

I will comment as much as I please as far as it is in compliance with the forum rules here. I’ve spent half of my life teaching color management working for a major market player and I’ve had worse students than you. Change your attitude and stick arround, who knows maybe you’ll learn something. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by koti

[Mehmet Saygın]

1 minute ago, koti said:

There is no such thing as pure yellow or pure green or pure any color unless you use a reference point (a color model) There is no way of comparing any color without working from within a color model. This has been explained to you in this thread multiple times ad nauseam. As for the rest of your post, I really suggest you step down from that rude and ignorant tone. This forum is for learning, if you refuse to do so and stick to personal attacks instead you wont get very far here.

I will comment as much as I please as far as it is in compliance with the forum rules here. I’ve spent half of my life teaching color management working for a major market player and I’ve had worse students than you. Change your attitude and stick arround, who knows maybe you’ll learn something. 

You are not doing anything other than annoying. I'm tired of writing the same comment as a parrot, please do not write again

1 minute ago, Mehmet Saygın said:

I’ve spent half of my life teaching color management working for a major market player

I am still write of these type of codes, so do not try to teach working principle of this kind of programs 

[koti]

7 minutes ago, Mehmet Saygın said:

You are not doing anything other than annoying. I'm tired of writing the same comment as a parrot, please do not write again

I am still write of these type of codes, so do not try to teach working principle of this kind of programs 

Your ignorance is truly astonishing. I think I'm done here, I'll let somebody else deal with you.

[Mehmet Saygın]

3 minutes ago, koti said:

Your ignorance is truly astonishing. I think I'm done here, I'll let somebody else deal with you.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Mehmet Saygın

[Phi for All]

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