Hijack from Space is the ultimate antecedent

[interested]

On 3/26/2018 at 12:38 AM, StringJunky said:

Yes.   Space is volume and is a property things, Length, width and height do not exist on their own. A vacuum is not nothing because it has virtual particles in it. A vacuum is not space itself, it has space/volume. The emptiest volume you can have is a vacuum.

Can space exist without virtual particles. Are virtual particles and space dependent on each other. Is the expansion of space driven by virtual particles, or does space expand allowing more virtual particles to come into existence.

Edit which came first virtual particles or space. (Chicken and egg scenario) Has space and virtual particles evolved something else. an earlier universe than the big bang perhaps

On 3/28/2018 at 12:20 AM, beecee said:

Does "nothing" exist? What is nothing?

Could there be dimensions where space time does not exist.

Edited April 7, 2018 by interested

[StringJunky]

3 minutes ago, interested said:

Can space exist without virtual particles. Are virtual particles and space dependent on each other. Is the expansion of space driven by virtual particles, or does space expand allowing more virtual particles to come into existence.

If volume, aka space, is a property of things, how can it be measurable if there is nothing there? i would think there needs to be at least virtual particles present.

[interested]

2 hours ago, Strange said:

Space is the universe. 

It may be finite or infinite, either way there is no boundary or edge, and nothing outside. 

All of that space would have been in the singularity - although there was probably no such thing. 

How many dimensions does space have have.

The edge of the visible universe is only the edge of what we can observe, we can not observe or reach beyond that point, the universe can therefore be regarded as infinite ie there is no reachable boundary.

Could a singularity be defined as unfolded N dimensions

2 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

If volume, aka space, is a property of things, how can it be measurable if there is nothing there? i would think there needs to be at least virtual particles present.

If the big bang did originate from a singularity ie unfolded N dimensions of space then could virtual particles have combined to form the original matter in the universe.

[Strange]

2 hours ago, interested said:

Can space exist without virtual particles.

Not in our universe! (You can create models of hypothetical universes with space-time but no energy and therefore no virtual particles.)

2 hours ago, interested said:

Could there be dimensions where space time does not exist.

Space and time are dimensions.

[interested]

10 minutes ago, Strange said:

Space and time are dimensions.

I know space  time are dimensions my question was

10 minutes ago, Strange said:

Could there be dimensions where space time does not exist.

ie if one thinks about the theoretical singularity at the point of the BB and the beginning of the expansion of the space time dimensions could there be other dimensions we dont perceive that perhaps did not unfold in the BB. A multidimensional Membrane making up space

Edited April 7, 2018 by interested

[Strange]

1 hour ago, interested said:

How many dimensions does space have have.

Three as far as we know. String theory requires more. 

1 hour ago, interested said:

The edge of the visible universe is only the edge of what we can observe, we can not observe or reach beyond that point, the universe can therefore be regarded as infinite ie there is no reachable boundary.

Or it could be finite (the fact we can never tell is a philosophical question, I guess) but still with no boundary.

2 hours ago, interested said:

Could a singularity be defined as unfolded N dimensions

A singularity is where the mathematics produces infinity as a result (e.g. infinite curvature at the centre of a black hole). 

2 hours ago, interested said:

If the big bang did originate from a singularity ie unfolded N dimensions of space then could virtual particles have combined to form the original matter in the universe.

Virtual particles are not particles, they are just short lived fluctuations in the non-zero energy of the vacuum.

But you touch on a fundamental problem. If matter came from the energy of the vacuum, why wasn't there the same number of particles and anti-particles, and why didn't they annihilate one another.No one knows.

9 minutes ago, interested said:

I know space  time are dimensions my question was

ie if one thinks about the theoretical singularity at the point of the BB and the beginning of the expansion of the space time dimensions could there be other dimensions we dont perceive that perhaps did not unfold in the BB. A multidimensional Membrane making up space

Well, string theory has more than three space dimensions. 

[interested]

20 hours ago, Strange said:

Or it could be finite (the fact we can never tell is a philosophical question, I guess) but still with no boundary.

To be infinite something is unattainable, philosophically we will never reach the edge of the universe so it can be regarded as infinite. 

20 hours ago, Strange said:

A singularity is where the mathematics produces infinity as a result (e.g. infinite curvature at the centre of a black hole). 

Yes but what does that singularity look like in N dimensions. 

Philosophically an idea occurred to me, but not being of a religious nature am not overly keen on this. But "in the beginning god said let there be light". Now if we drop of the god bit and any connection to the old testament, and look at unfolded space in a singularity consisting of perhaps N? dimensions. Space and time do not exist at this singularity in space. For a particle or energy to exist it exists outside of space time ie dimensions and time do not exist. For a photon time does not exist and neither does space, it is only in our space time that it appears to be restricted to c and be given properties. Philosophically could it exist in an extra dimension and just appear in our three D world at a frequency and speed. Bosons can all exist in the same spot.

20 hours ago, Strange said:

Virtual particles are not particles, they are just short lived fluctuations in the non-zero energy of the vacuum.

Yes I know virtual particles are short lived quantum fluctuations appearing out of the vacuum from where? Could they also be popping in and out of another dimension of space.

20 hours ago, Strange said:

But you touch on a fundamental problem. If matter came from the energy of the vacuum, why wasn't there the same number of particles and anti-particles, and why didn't they annihilate one another.No one knows.

Why should there be an equal number of matter antimatter particles. As you are no doubt aware there is a theory of the zero energy universe, where both negative and positive energies may have created the original matter in the universe. (E+) + (E-) = 0. This is not the same as positron electron annihilation which results in a pair of gamma rays, the energy is not destroyed. But what would happen to a pair of gamma rays if they were in exact antiphase at the same point in space, they would cancel would they not? They even appear not to exist. At the original BB radiation originated from a singularity, it all existed in about the same point in space. 

20 hours ago, Strange said:

Well, string theory has more than three space dimensions. 

Yes I know this as well

# 

[Strange]

41 minutes ago, interested said:

To be infinite something is unattainable, philosophically we will never reach the edge of the universe so it can be regarded as infinite. 

Or it might have a finite, measurable size. (It might even be smaller than the observable universe!)

The fact we may never be able to measure it doesn’t make it infinite. (We are talking maths and physics here, not some abstract, metaphysical meaning of “infinite”).

 

54 minutes ago, interested said:

Why should there be an equal number of matter antimatter particles.

Conservation laws. As you say, it takes a particle and anti-particle to annihilate and produce a photon. Similarly, particles and anti-particles should be crated in pairs. Understanding why they weren't is the challenge.

55 minutes ago, interested said:

But what would happen to a pair of gamma rays if they were in exact antiphase at the same point in space, they would cancel would they not?

They would have to re-inforce somewhere else. (See also: interference fringes.) You can't just destroy energy.

56 minutes ago, interested said:

At the original BB radiation originated from a singularity

Except it probably didn't. A singularity in the maths just means the theory no longer applies. It isn't a "thing".

[interested]

9 minutes ago, Strange said:

Except it probably didn't. A singularity in the maths just means the theory no longer applies. It isn't a "thing".

At he BB radiation existed, even if it came from a black hole disintegrating as per Quantum loop gravity. How you define space at this point might be open to interpretation. Space is a thing and it is expanding, and it may have more dimensions than just 4 dimensional space time.

Are you saying an expanding space may have existed before the big bang.

Are you also saying a singularity as defined under the maths never happened. 

You can not create energy or destroy it, what is your view on the zero energy universe concept.

28 minutes ago, Strange said:

They would have to re-inforce somewhere else. (See also: interference fringes.) You can't just destroy energy.

interference fringes assume space time exists, without space how do they apply?

https://www.britannica.com/science/interference-fringe

[Strange]

25 minutes ago, interested said:

it came from a black hole disintegrating as per Quantum loop gravity

Are you making things up again? 

25 minutes ago, interested said:

Are you saying an expanding space may have existed before the big bang.

It is one possibility.

26 minutes ago, interested said:

Are you also saying a singularity as defined under the maths never happened. 

As far as I know, no one thinks it represents any sort of physical reality. Our current theories don't allow us to go back before a certain time. If you extrapolate GR you get a meaningless results (a mathematical singularity) which probably means that GR doesn't apply.

27 minutes ago, interested said:

interference fringes assume space time exists, without space how do they apply?

You had a pair of gamma rays, therefore you were talking about a context in which space time exists. 

Now you are saying what if those gamma rays didn't even exist in the first place, could they still cancel each other out? What sort of question is that? If unicorns don't exist, which one would win a race?