Conspiracy Theories Come True

[Thomas Kirby]

Hear, hear! I don't know that there is much that I can add to that.

 

Maybe it should be another thread, but try to name a conspiracy theory more than 20 years old that hasn't been pretty much proven to be true by now, besides the one about fluoridation.

 

Though most of these stories (and all the ones mentioned here) are completely unfounded, it worries me not a little that the more we make the sound byte "conspiracy theory" synonymous with "whacko ranting", the easier it becomes to pull off an actual conspiracy.

[Phi for All]

Ask and ye shall receive. Split off from Stupidest Conspiracy Theories, post the ones that have come true.

 

How about J. Edgar Hoover's secret files? Those were speculation and theory in their day.

[Thomas Kirby]

How about the Nightbreaker experiments in which our soldiers were decieved about the dosages of radiation that they received from nuclear tests in which our government literally atom bombed our soldiers? Also, smallpox blankets are a classic that would be considered to be a nutcase conspiracy theory today.

 

Plus, I do consider the evidence against fluoridation to be pretty strong. If nothing else, when you look around, a lot of very intelligent work has been done on this.

[JohnB]

Plus, I do consider the evidence against fluoridation to be pretty strong.

I have to disagree Thomas. It's not that the evidence against is strong, it's that the evidence for is bloody nonexistent.

 

I've just spent 30 minutes trying to find a table showing the relative incidence of dental caries in Australias Capital Cities to compare Brisbane (non flouridated) with the others (flouridated). One would think that this would be an easy thing to find. Not so.

 

What I did find in many medical reports were comments like "it is accepted that flouridation decreases dental caries" with no statistics to back this up. Hmmmmm.

 

Acceptance without proof? And I thought medicine was supposed to be a science. Oh Dear.

[ydoaPs]

Maybe it should be another thread, but try to name a conspiracy theory more than 20 years old that hasn't been pretty much proven to be true by now, besides the one about fluoridation.

is this ones that have been shown to be true or ones that are older than 20 years and haven't been proven true?

[-Demosthenes-]

I have to disagree Thomas. It's not that the evidence against is strong, it's that the evidence for is bloody nonexistent.

This is not very conslusive evidence but it's evidence all the same. Me and my little brother closest to me in age grew up with flouridation. I've gotten two cavity in my life and my brother one. Later my even younger brother was born and we moved to where there was no flouridation. He has had many cavities (and continues to have them). This may or may not be related to flouridation. It may be something else or it may be a fluke (he is more suseptible to cavities somehow else).

[Dak]

What I did find in many medical reports were comments like "it is accepted that flouridation decreases dental caries" with no statistics to back this up. Hmmmmm

 

Acceptance without proof? And I thought medicine was supposed to be a science. Oh Dear.

 

Kaaaaaaaaaaaa-waitforithereitcomes-plonkums

[Pangloss]

You know when fluoridation first began? Nineteen hundred and forty-six. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.

 

I first became aware of it during the physical act of love. Yes, a profound sense of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly: Loss of essence.

 

I can assure you it has not recurred. Women women sense my power and they seek the life essence.

 

I do not avoid women. But I do deny them my essence.

[atinymonkey]

Pangloss, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk..... ice cream. Ice cream, Pangloss, children's ice cream.

[JohnB]

Dak, I could only get the abstract. How do you use that data base? Also I was looking for Australian stats as I'm from Brisbane.

 

What I find interesting is the Auditor Generals Report.

Even though there is greater flouridation in Victoria than Queensland (only about 5% of Q'landers recieve flouridated water) Victoria has twice the incidence of missing teeth than the national average.

 

The report shows a statistical advantage to flouridation when comparing flouridated to non flouridated Victorian communities, but brushes off the fact that flouridated areas of Victoria still have a higher incidence of caries than non flouridated Queensland.

 

The mere fact that after 60 odd years of flouridation, there is still no compelling and clear evidence for an advantage to flouridation shows it to be of little benefit.

[YT2095]

Pangloss, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt.

 

geez, then they really WOULD make too much salt bad for you!

surely there`s more than plenty Fluorine in toothpastes as it is, we don`t need any more.

[Sayonara]

What I find interesting is the Auditor Generals Report.

Even though there is greater flouridation in Victoria than Queensland (only about 5% of Q'landers recieve flouridated water) Victoria has twice the incidence of missing teeth than the national average.

...

The mere fact that after 60 odd years of flouridation' date=' there is still no compelling and clear evidence for an advantage to flouridation shows it to be of little benefit.[/quote']

Putting "twice" in bold doesn't magically rule out other factors.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Pangloss, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk..... ice cream. Ice cream, Pangloss, children's ice cream.

Yes, General Ripper. I've heard.

 

 

Dr. Strangelove joke, everybody. General Ripper went on and on about the Commie conspiracy of flourination.

[Dak]

Dak, I could only get the abstract. How do you use that data base? Also I was looking for Australian stats as I'm from Brisbane.

 

They dont have the full article in their database... if you want to read it, either google the title or go to the nearest academic library and enquire after this issue of this journal

 

Am J Dis Child. 1975 Jul;129(7):794-800.

 

presumably, the american journal of diseased childeren (?)

 

The mere fact that after 60 odd years of flouridation, there is still no compelling and clear evidence for an advantage to flouridation shows it to be of little benefit.

what abouth the paper i linked to?

 

heres another:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10865398&query_hl=2

[atinymonkey]

Dr. Strangelove joke' date=' everybody. General Ripper went on and on about the Commie conspiracy of flourination.[/size']

Yes. Way to keep the humour alive. Witness the mirth O_o

[Thomas Kirby]

In the message I started this thread with, I said it pretty badly. I consider the case against fluoridation to be pretty well established, and some of it started way back when. Even if it was Edgar Cayce who first mentioned it, a chemist at least has to think about whether other minerals in water like iron will change the way that fluorine interacts with the body. If I remember correctly, natural fluoridation is from calcium fluorides. How is tin fluoride an acceptable substitute? Who shows us any studies that show that fluoride supplementation is effective and safe?

 

One other thing that sort of slid right by us is the fact that calcium salts help the teeth directly and even help heal small cavities and dark spots. If it were calcium salts that helped, no fluorides would be necessary. Your normal "hard" water would do the trick. Water that is naturally fluoridated contains the fluoride salt of calcium and other salts of calcium. You certainly can't assume that tin fluoride will do the same thing. Teeth like calcium, not tin. A halide salt of calcium is a fairly available form of calcium. What people should in fact do is at least once a day rinse their mouths with a calcium bicarbonate solution.

 

I have to agree with people who say that if we can't find the case for fluoridation, it probably doesn't exist. Sites like this one seem to provide a lot more evidence for their side than the advocates of fluoridation. I guess being silent and looking authoritative goes quite a ways. The plural of anecdote may not be evidence, but a lot of authorities seem to have some pretty authoritative anecdotes. The site I linked to also says that calcium compounds reduce caries, not fluorides.

[Dak]

One other thing that sort of slid right by us is the fact that calcium salts help the teeth directly and even help heal small cavities and dark spots. If it were calcium salts that helped, no fluorides would be necessary. Your normal "hard" water would do the trick. Water that is naturally fluoridated contains the fluoride salt of calcium and other salts of calcium. You certainly can't assume that tin fluoride will do the same thing. Teeth like calcium, not tin. A halide salt of calcium is a fairly available form of calcium. What people should in fact do is at least once a day rinse their mouths with a calcium bicarbonate solution.

 

Its better to drink milk. calcium works throughought the body, in bons teeth and as a signalling molecule, and also i think that more will be incorporated into the teeth via the blood stream than by mouth-rinses.

 

flouride, by the way, decreases the solubility of calcium, thus increasing its retention by the teeth (as i understand it).

 

I have to agree with people who say that if we can't find the case for fluoridation, it probably doesn't exist.

 

people who say they cant find the case for flouridation usually have their eyes scrunched tight shut.

 

iv given two papers which find a correlation between flouride exposure and good dental hygien, which you seem to be ignoring.

 

Sites like this one[/url'] seem to provide a lot more evidence for their side than the advocates of fluoridation.

 

The site you linked to didnt contain one proper citation.