Moontanman Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 To some extent I feel like I am beating a dead horse but here goes. The vast majority of UFO sighting are either conventional objects misidentified or lack enough data to really make a judgment. Contrary to popular belief there are sightings that suffer from an embarrassment of data and yet stubbornly refuse to be identified. It should be mentioned that the original meaning of UFO was a flying object that could not be identified after exhaustive study, not simply lights in the sky. There are many "classes" of UFOs from the ones so silly they make for a good laugh to sightings that are either unknown technology so inexplicable as to be spacecraft or intentional hoaxes no third option is likely. Personally I am unimpressed by "lights in the sky" while unidentified there is simply not enough information to even intelligently speculate about what they might be. It's is important to note that for whatever reason the US Air Force did pursue a campaign of disinformation and pressured other countries to do the same. Scientists were discouraged if not actually threatened with ridicule not to give the subject any credence. Much of this pressure wasn't overt but it existed all the same. In fact The Condon Report actively threatened the researchers involved if they attempted to take the subject seriously. The Entire study was paid for by the US Air Force and the Condon committee asked the Air Force ahead of time what conclusion they wanted the study to show... hardly scientific to say the least. Many powerful people went out of their way establish the foolhardiness of even considering the subject as anything but misguided fantasy. Admittedly studying something that cannot be directly tested is difficult but a clear photo of a T-Rex walking down the street might not be absolutely convincing as evidence once the photo was judged to be genuine I am quite sure it would be seriously investigated. Such photos of UFOs do exist, yet the better the quality of the picture the more likely it is to be assumed to be fake. From some random farmer who manages to snap a photo of something extraordinary to gun site pictures and video to multiple independent radar returns, multiple independent eye witnesses and even military and civilian pilots there is data, data that on any other subject would be taken seriously. The 1952 Washington DC sighting was and still is one of the most inexplicable encounters on record. Multiple independent civilian eye witnesses, multiple independent military eye witnesses, multiple independent radar returns, actual interaction with both civilian and military aircraft the sighting is an extraordinary event. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952_Washington,_D.C._UFO_incident Quote At 11:30 p.m., two U.S. Air Force F-94 Starfire jet fighters from New Castle Air Force Base in Delaware arrived over Washington. Captain John McHugo, the flight leader, was vectored towards the radar blips but saw nothing, despite repeated attempts.[15]However, his wingman, Lieutenant William Patterson, did see four white "glows" and chased them.[3] He later said that "I tried to make contact with the bogies below 1,000 feet. I was at my maximum speed...I ceased chasing them because I saw no chance of overtaking them."[3] According to Albert Chop, when ground control asked Patterson "if he saw anything", Patterson replied "'I see them now and they're all around me. What should I do?'...And nobody answered, because we didn't know what to tell him."[5] These pictures is either a hoax or a real UFO: They were taken in 1950 by a farmer who gained nothing from them and whose character was considered beyond reproach. They might not be aliens but they, at the very least, offer some insight into how humans think when faced with unusual events...
beecee Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Moontanman said: These pictures is either a hoax or a real UFO: They were taken in 1950 by a farmer who gained nothing from them and whose character was considered beyond reproach. They might not be aliens but they, at the very least, offer some insight into how humans think when faced with unusual events... Firstly, with regards to the thread title, I would say that at least in the "hay day" of UFO sightings, there certainly was scientific research into the phenomena. Then as people's imaginations were stirred, many started to see so called UFO's in ever increasing numbers. You obviously also agree that 95% or thereabouts have been explained away by unusual weather events and astronomical sightings such as the planet Venus. So can you really blame scientists when their attitude is "here we go again" and the usual when someone reports a supposed sighting? Again as I said in the other thread, started by an obviously very impressionable type of character, why do these Alien characters [if Aliens are involved] keep flittering in and flittering out again, grabbing the odd individual for some anal probing, and generally scaring the daylights out of people, and not make themselves officially known? And then we have the time and distance barriers, while you yourself doubted we could ever achieve any type of warp travel.Thirdly of course is that often confusion by imressionable people of equating "unidentified or unknown with Alien. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence: Carl Sagan. And obviously over the many years of these sightings, that extraordinary evidence has never been forthcoming, rather the usual blurry images of objects and second hand accounts. Can we reasonably expect science to keep on wasting manpower and time on supposed sightings by any Tom, Dick or Harry? Here are some photos that could be mistaken for UFO's and many more here..... https://www.google.com.au/search?q=photos+of+weird+weather+phenomena&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=I1x2bU_MTxJU7M%3A%2CGP12OkT1wxXoJM%2C_&usg=__9XrxEFelLtNa3Fqv44B976jzSGA%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXocqcnMzaAhXKT7wKHTdTDyEQ9QEIOzAJ#imgrc=I1x2bU_MTxJU7M: then we have.... from...https://www.space.com/39200-spacex-rocket-launch-not-ufo-spectactular-photos.html and this.... from...http://www.mlive.com/news/us-world/index.ssf/2017/05/military_flares_over_lake_onta.html and the Queen of mistaken UFO claims! http://www.astronomyufo.com/UFO/Venusufo.htm Let me finish off by saying that as an old bastard, my two greatest wishes before I kick the bucket are [1] Manned Mars Landing, and [2] Confirmation [extraordinary evidence or contact] of some form of extra terrestrial life. Edited April 21, 2018 by beecee
Moontanman Posted April 21, 2018 Author Posted April 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, beecee said: Firstly, with regards to the thread title, I would say that at least in the "hay day" of UFO sightings, there certainly was scientific research into the phenomena. Then as people's imaginations were stirred, many started to see so called UFO's in ever increasing numbers. You obviously also agree that 95% or thereabouts have been explained away by unusual weather events and astronomical sightings such as the planet Venus. So can you really blame scientists when their attitude is "here we go again" and the usual when someone reports a supposed sighting? Here we go again should be tempered by the quality of the sighting but yeah the human desire of "me too" is rampant. I've tried it myself. several times when i was on the end of a fishing pier I would shout "he did you guys see that huge fish jump?" of course no fish jumped but the majority of the people would say "yeah i saw it" and start describing it in great detail. It works nearly every time. Herd mentality is a very strong thing in humans. 4 minutes ago, beecee said: Again as I said in the other thread, started by an obviously very impressionable type of character, why do these Alien characters [if Aliens are involved] keep flittering in and fluttering out again, grabbing the odd individual for some anal probing, and generally scaring the daylights out of people, and not make themselves officially known? And then we have the time and distance barriers, while you yourself doubted we could ever achieve any type of warp travel.Thirdly of course is that often confusion by impressionable people of equating "unidentified or unknown with Alien. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence: Carl Sagan. I agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence warp drive is not required to colonise the galaxy. People who are used to living in O'Nell cylinders would be free to travel anywhere and when they find a chunk of matter they can top up volatiles or even stop and construct another habitat. Interstellar space is full of rocky/icy bodies and if you are using carbon as your main construction material the old one makes two and those make four and so on builds up quickly. 4 minutes ago, beecee said: And obviously over the many years of these sightings, that extraordinary evidence has never been forthcoming, rather the usual blurry images of objects and second hand accounts. Can we reasonably expect science to keep on wasting manpower and time on supposed sightings by any Tom, Dick or Harry? Here are some photos that could be mistaken for UFO's and many more here..... https://www.google.com.au/search?q=photos+of+weird+weather+phenomena&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=I1x2bU_MTxJU7M%3A%2CGP12OkT1wxXoJM%2C_&usg=__9XrxEFelLtNa3Fqv44B976jzSGA%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXocqcnMzaAhXKT7wKHTdTDyEQ9QEIOzAJ#imgrc=I1x2bU_MTxJU7M: then we have.... from...https://www.space.com/39200-spacex-rocket-launch-not-ufo-spectactular-photos.html and this.... from...http://www.mlive.com/news/us-world/index.ssf/2017/05/military_flares_over_lake_onta.html and the Queen of mistaken UFO claims! http://www.astronomyufo.com/UFO/Venusufo.htm Let me finish off by saying that as an old bastard, my two greatest wishes before I kick the bucket are [1] Manned Mars Landing, and [2] Confirmation [extraordinary evidence or contact] of some form of extra terrestrial life. All the photos you posted are low hanging fruit and easily explained, there are photos that defy explanation and sightings that really do make you go hmmm. I don't waste my time on reports that are either clear or obviously natural phenomenon. My hypothesis is that aliens avoid gravity wells unless they need something that only exists there or are studying a new intelligent species. Not wanting to interfere with impressionable savages is enough of a reason for them to not contact us and we only get fleeting glimpses of them. My own little dog and pony show is that civilizations ignore planets, too difficult and time consuming to terraform, bodies in the Oort clouds of stars are far more desirable and contain everything needed. And yet the 1952 sightings remain and only one has to be real. The first air force study of UFOs concluded they were interplanetary space craft. The Air Force brass shit a litter of kittens and demanded they come up with another explanation and that all sighting must be debunked.
Moontanman Posted April 22, 2018 Author Posted April 22, 2018 It is important to note that the "me too" syndrome is a big part of UFOs but cherry picking reports is also a big part of the UFO phenomena. None of the pics you posted are impressive, all are easily explained. Why would someone looking to figure something out pass up the difficult for the easily explained unless they were looking for a predetermined explanation? I am not accusing you of that but that is how it has worked since the US Air Force "Project Sign" concluded that UFOs were likely interplanetary spacecraft. What would you have said if you were talking to this pilot? 23 hours ago, Moontanman said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952_Washington,_D.C._UFO_incident Quote At 11:30 p.m., two U.S. Air Force F-94 Starfire jet fighters from New Castle Air Force Base in Delaware arrived over Washington. Captain John McHugo, the flight leader, was vectored towards the radar blips but saw nothing, despite repeated attempts.[15]However, his wingman, Lieutenant William Patterson, did see four white "glows" and chased them.[3] He later said that "I tried to make contact with the bogies below 1,000 feet. I was at my maximum speed...I ceased chasing them because I saw no chance of overtaking them."[3] According to Albert Chop, when ground control asked Patterson "if he saw anything", Patterson replied "'I see them now and they're all around me. What should I do?'...And nobody answered, because we didn't know what to tell him."[5] I was once asked that if UFOs were really alien spacecraft why didn't we ever find pieces of them. My reply was " I live under the flight path of an airport, dozens of airplanes fly over my house everyday, some so low I can see the faces of the pilots. Interestingly I have never seen or found a piece of an aircraft that fell off... The number of sightings that are extraordinary are not numerous but they are really interesting.
koti Posted April 22, 2018 Posted April 22, 2018 23 hours ago, beecee said: Let me finish off by saying that as an old bastard, my two greatest wishes before I kick the bucket are [1] Manned Mars Landing, and [2] Confirmation [extraordinary evidence or contact] of some form of extra terrestrial life. As a mid aged bastard I have to second that
Moontanman Posted April 22, 2018 Author Posted April 22, 2018 2 hours ago, koti said: As a mid aged bastard I have to second that I have to say me too! That is why i mostly fixate on old reports, youtube is full so full of fake stuff I think I'd have to be on the spot and see one land on the white house lawn and then I'd how it was faked... There is a guy near where i live who flies a lighted drone at night, I keep expecting to see it on youtube at anytime. The fact remains that something is going on or was and most arguments to the contrary were fixed by disinformation and unrealistic expectations...
koti Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 29 minutes ago, Moontanman said: I have to say me too! That is why i mostly fixate on old reports, youtube is full so full of fake stuff I think I'd have to be on the spot and see one land on the white house lawn and then I'd how it was faked... There is a guy near where i live who flies a lighted drone at night, I keep expecting to see it on youtube at anytime. The fact remains that something is going on or was and most arguments to the contrary were fixed by disinformation and unrealistic expectations... Heres a short interview with Ray Kurzweil on aliens. Unfortunately its not too optimistic for alien lovers but its definitely worth watching as what hes saying makes sense. My personal view changed since I understood some Relativity, now I’m convinced that we’re just too far away from each other to make contact.
StringJunky Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 24 minutes ago, koti said: Heres a short interview with Ray Kurzweil on aliens. Unfortunately its not too optimistic for alien lovers but its definitely worth watching as what hes saying makes sense. My personal view changed since I understood some Relativity, now I’m convinced that we’re just too far away from each other to make contact. Our radio footprint is only about 100 light years all around us.
JacobsLadder Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 A fascinating topic, although I am doubtful these anomalies are indicative of alien life. I suspect what we are seeing is evidence that there is activity beyond the firmament.
beecee Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 8 hours ago, koti said: Heres a short interview with Ray Kurzweil on aliens. Unfortunately its not too optimistic for alien lovers but its definitely worth watching as what hes saying makes sense. My personal view changed since I understood some Relativity, now I’m convinced that we’re just too far away from each other to make contact. What he is saying is interesting to say the least, and certainly food for thought. I would like to see him in a debate with, say Laurence Krauss.
Moontanman Posted April 23, 2018 Author Posted April 23, 2018 If we are expecting to see the equivalent of the UFP or the star ship Enterprise I think the expectations are totally unrealistic. The idea of colonising another Earth like planet is equally unrealistic as is terraforming another panet if for no other reason the time scales involved in terraforming if not the actual distances needed to be covered. I love to read science fiction and watch science fiction TV and movies but the more realistic ideas of slowly mining the galaxy for materials to build artificial habitats in the not so empty space between the stars doesn't really make for snappy episodes of tv or movies. Even small discrepancies in the parameters of another planet would make them uninhabitable to humans without some serious Genetic modification. Once you get past the idea of scouting the galaxy for habitable worlds and get down to building our own worlds the idea becomes much more realistic if more than a bit slow and boring. Colonising the galaxy in a few million years does not make for good drama but it does make sense. I have my doubts that any other civilization will want to do anything with alien worlds other than avoid them. The possibility of biological contamination in of itself is worrying if not the ethical issues of invasive species wiping out other ecosystems. Humans have done rather badly by doing this on Earth by allowing species to be spread outside their natural boundaries here in Earth and we share all our DNA with them. I can see the possibility of occasional visits by their equivalent of researchers but I would expect them to be few and far between and their presence would almost certainly mean they are already nearby and exploiting the raw materials of our own Oort cloud. I would expect such expeditions to only be sent out long after the Planetary system in question already has a long term colony of space habitats operating in the outer reaches of the worlds in question. While the revelation of this would probably not be as Earth shattering as some think it would be disturbing to our own future plans of expansion. IMHO even if UFOs do not represent an alien civilization visiting us they still have a potential tale to tell about how the human minds works and possibly even how mythology and religion originates. Another rather long shot is that UFOs themselves represent some sort of unknown natural phenomena that that has it's own value as furthering our knowledge of the universe... There are many reports with actual evidence that either represents something real or some sort of widespread natural tendency or conspiracy of human perception... There are reports that are either complete hoaxes or an actual extraordinary event, no third possibility exists... 16 hours ago, JacobsLadder said: A fascinating topic, although I am doubtful these anomalies are indicative of alien life. I suspect what we are seeing is evidence that there is activity beyond the firmament. Firmenant? What exactly do you mean by firmenant? One possible explanation for the Fermi Paradox is that star travel is not reasonable unless the resources of the original planetary system has been turned into a Dyson Swarm. Even if controlled fusion never becomes possible we already have a fusion reactor nearby and we could break up the planets to make a dyson swarm consisting of the equivalent of a billion times the surface area of the Earth. How long would this take? would it ever really be over? Is there really any motivation to star travel? 1
inSe Posted May 8, 2018 Posted May 8, 2018 (edited) On 4/21/2018 at 11:20 AM, Moontanman said: To some extent I feel like I am beating a dead horse but here goes. The vast majority of UFO sighting are either conventional objects misidentified or lack enough data to really make a judgment. Contrary to popular belief there are sightings that suffer from an embarrassment of data and yet stubbornly refuse to be identified. It should be mentioned that the original meaning of UFO was a flying object that could not be identified after exhaustive study, not simply lights in the sky. There are many "classes" of UFOs from the ones so silly they make for a good laugh to sightings that are either unknown technology so inexplicable as to be spacecraft or intentional hoaxes no third option is likely. Personally I am unimpressed by "lights in the sky" while unidentified there is simply not enough information to even intelligently speculate about what they might be. It's is important to note that for whatever reason the US Air Force did pursue a campaign of disinformation and pressured other countries to do the same. Scientists were discouraged if not actually threatened with ridicule not to give the subject any credence. Much of this pressure wasn't overt but it existed all the same. In fact The Condon Report actively threatened the researchers involved if they attempted to take the subject seriously. The Entire study was paid for by the US Air Force and the Condon committee asked the Air Force ahead of time what conclusion they wanted the study to show... hardly scientific to say the least. Many powerful people went out of their way establish the foolhardiness of even considering the subject as anything but misguided fantasy. Admittedly studying something that cannot be directly tested is difficult but a clear photo of a T-Rex walking down the street might not be absolutely convincing as evidence once the photo was judged to be genuine I am quite sure it would be seriously investigated. Such photos of UFOs do exist, yet the better the quality of the picture the more likely it is to be assumed to be fake. From some random farmer who manages to snap a photo of something extraordinary to gun site pictures and video to multiple independent radar returns, multiple independent eye witnesses and even military and civilian pilots there is data, data that on any other subject would be taken seriously. The 1952 Washington DC sighting was and still is one of the most inexplicable encounters on record. Multiple independent civilian eye witnesses, multiple independent military eye witnesses, multiple independent radar returns, actual interaction with both civilian and military aircraft the sighting is an extraordinary event. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952_Washington,_D.C._UFO_incident These pictures is either a hoax or a real UFO: They were taken in 1950 by a farmer who gained nothing from them and whose character was considered beyond reproach. They might not be aliens but they, at the very least, offer some insight into how humans think when faced with unusual events... None of this had to do with Aliens. These events predated the WOW! signal (which actually stood for War of World's) which required Mandelbrot's equations used to correct AC electrical currents in the US cable grid to recieve. In the Philadelphia experiment navy vessels sent out one of Tesla's puppies west on a cross country trek, that's what's in that photograph. Inside it would have been particles entangled with those on the navy vessels. It sent out completely next level ESP encrypted signals and flew indefinitely via gravitoelectromagnetism (faaday cage) with zero energy requirements. On 4/23/2018 at 6:56 PM, Moontanman said: If we are expecting to see the equivalent of the UFP or the star ship Enterprise I think the expectations are totally unrealistic. The idea of colonising another Earth like planet is equally unrealistic as is terraforming another panet if for no other reason the time scales involved in terraforming if not the actual distances needed to be covered. I love to read science fiction and watch science fiction TV and movies but the more realistic ideas of slowly mining the galaxy for materials to build artificial habitats in the not so empty space between the stars doesn't really make for snappy episodes of tv or movies. Even small discrepancies in the parameters of another planet would make them uninhabitable to humans without some serious Genetic modification. Once you get past the idea of scouting the galaxy for habitable worlds and get down to building our own worlds the idea becomes much more realistic if more than a bit slow and boring. Colonising the galaxy in a few million years does not make for good drama but it does make sense. I have my doubts that any other civilization will want to do anything with alien worlds other than avoid them. The possibility of biological contamination in of itself is worrying if not the ethical issues of invasive species wiping out other ecosystems. Humans have done rather badly by doing this on Earth by allowing species to be spread outside their natural boundaries here in Earth and we share all our DNA with them. I can see the possibility of occasional visits by their equivalent of researchers but I would expect them to be few and far between and their presence would almost certainly mean they are already nearby and exploiting the raw materials of our own Oort cloud. I would expect such expeditions to only be sent out long after the Planetary system in question already has a long term colony of space habitats operating in the outer reaches of the worlds in question. While the revelation of this would probably not be as Earth shattering as some think it would be disturbing to our own future plans of expansion. IMHO even if UFOs do not represent an alien civilization visiting us they still have a potential tale to tell about how the human minds works and possibly even how mythology and religion originates. Another rather long shot is that UFOs themselves represent some sort of unknown natural phenomena that that has it's own value as furthering our knowledge of the universe... There are many reports with actual evidence that either represents something real or some sort of widespread natural tendency or conspiracy of human perception... There are reports that are either complete hoaxes or an actual extraordinary event, no third possibility exists... Firmenant? What exactly do you mean by firmenant? One possible explanation for the Fermi Paradox is that star travel is not reasonable unless the resources of the original planetary system has been turned into a Dyson Swarm. Even if controlled fusion never becomes possible we already have a fusion reactor nearby and we could break up the planets to make a dyson swarm consisting of the equivalent of a billion times the surface area of the Earth. How long would this take? would it ever really be over? Is there really any motivation to star travel? Please; traits keep being selected if it wasn't beneficial for survival? Finally, for 200,000 years humans still aren't making civilizations, then in the last 10,000 years they suddenly pop up - going from a nomadic behavior to a hive-like behavior. In a world not influenced by information panspermia, there should be as many species on one world that evolve with the capacity of culture & civilization as there are species of insects here on earth. Instead, here, there's only one species that evolved for culture & organized civilization, for a Type III trying to propagate indirectly via remote access to galaxies beyond where they can go, they'd only need one species capable of building a society to evolve in that entire galaxy, makes sense to me. They'd probably propagate through a linear string of galaxies. Like a trillion galaxies beyond Segue 1, but because of how far away those galaxies are, we only see evidence of a Type III occurring as far back as 75 million years ago inside Segue 1. Beyond Segue 1, the galaxies that their ships hit before that are so far away that their light paints a picture of the galaxy before the aliens got there. However, say they we are seeing the oldest evidence we can see of them in Segue 1, the first solar system there to achieve Type II status would have marked their arrival at Segue 1, which would have been millions of years before that galaxy became the Type III civ we see evidence of because it takes millions of years to replicate across even a dwarf galaxy when your nano-probes are limited by relativistic time dilation (c). So that adds millions of years to the 75 millions year old photo of Segue 1 as a Type III civ, giving the nano-probes sent from there to Tabby's Star @ about 20% of the speed of light enough time for Tabby's star to hit Type II status while humans were still ruled by Julius Caesar. Before their probes had time to even get to Segue 1, their information panspermia was fast at work building the first single-celled organisms here on earth, as the fraction of planets capable of seeding the evolution of intelligent life are negligibly infinitesimal. It's quicker, but you can't always do it because planets like this are one in a googol, so that's why there'd be nano-probes targeting a trail of galaxies behind us stemming from an origin point that probably preceeds our cosmic microwave background considering how rarely life naturally evolves into a civilization. Segue 1 might be spheroidal because they were dragging its stars into its galactic core. If you can turn an entire galaxy into a giant hot dense quasar around its central SMBH you might have a shot of moving it in the same way you'd move the stars (although moving the SMBH of a quasar of that size would require a galactic Shkadov Thruster of such size that in order to build it you'd need to star lift 1,000 suns. Our reality could be one of infinite simulations run by matrioshka brains to find the real universe as it is for interstellar spook action signalling (because in this theory it is possible to tell how observing one particle will effect all entangled particles between, say, a star system in Andromeda & earth's). Which our satellites might pick up as intelligible transmissions that use Unified Field Oscillations. We could be in the middle of an intergalactic conversation. What the WOW! (AKA war of worlds) signal implies is that we are in the middle of an intergalactic conversation, and if we don't beat the clock in scientifically understanding this type of sub-nano quantum controlled information technology before the self replicating von neumann nanites from Tabby's star get here in 4,000 years or so, than we're done, our remotely guided evolution deemed an inefficient waste of time by the collective. Edited May 8, 2018 by inSe -4
Ten oz Posted May 8, 2018 Posted May 8, 2018 On 4/21/2018 at 12:20 PM, Moontanman said: The vast majority of UFO sighting are either conventional objects misidentified or lack enough data to really make a judgment. Contrary to popular belief there are sightings that suffer from an embarrassment of data and yet stubbornly refuse to be identified. If it were true that intelligent life alien exists and is or has visited earth than it may also be true that they (Aliens who visited) are more technologically advanced and as such have to ability to avoid identification. So the lack of data itself doesn't disprove the existence of alien visitation since there is some plausible reasons for the lack of evidence. However....there is no evidence! So until such time evidence exist we are at a impasse.
Moontanman Posted May 8, 2018 Author Posted May 8, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Ten oz said: If it were true that intelligent life alien exists and is or has visited earth than it may also be true that they (Aliens who visited) are more technologically advanced and as such have to ability to avoid identification. So the lack of data itself doesn't disprove the existence of alien visitation since there is some plausible reasons for the lack of evidence. However....there is no evidence! So until such time evidence exist we are at a impasse. Care to prove that? Edited May 8, 2018 by Moontanman
Ten oz Posted May 8, 2018 Posted May 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Moontanman said: Care to prove that? Your question goes straight to the impasse I referenced. Can you prove there is evidence? It is a stalemate until something changes. I can no more disprove the existence of aliens than I can the existence of God. Likewise I no known empirical evidence exists proving them. The challenge is in identifying evidence and not in proving negatives.
StringJunky Posted May 8, 2018 Posted May 8, 2018 17 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Your question goes straight to the impasse I referenced. Can you prove there is evidence? It is a stalemate until something changes. I can no more disprove the existence of aliens than I can the existence of God. Likewise I no known empirical evidence exists proving them. The challenge is in identifying evidence and not in proving negatives. On that basis it's not a scientific question.
Moontanman Posted May 9, 2018 Author Posted May 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Ten oz said: Your question goes straight to the impasse I referenced. Can you prove there is evidence? It is a stalemate until something changes. I can no more disprove the existence of aliens than I can the existence of God. Likewise I no known empirical evidence exists proving them. The challenge is in identifying evidence and not in proving negatives. You define evidence and I'll see if I can accommodate you. Lots of evidence exists whether or not it would satisfy you is the question...
Mordred Posted May 9, 2018 Posted May 9, 2018 Data the the majority of the professional scientific community accept as evidence lol. Good luck
Velocity_Boy Posted May 9, 2018 Posted May 9, 2018 (edited) Intelligent life has been visiting this planet for many years. The former Operation Blue Book head honcho once admitted to having an embarrassment of riches for UFO proof. A guy named Steven Doty is very candid about how his job as an Air Force spook was to orchestrate cover-ups and discredit UFO witnesses and apologists. The cover-ups are actually out of the US government hands at this point. And beyond congressional oversight. It's really a quadi military shadow government. I know that sounds to the uninformed like Tin Foil Hat woo. But one need only read some of Dr. Steven Greer's work on this topic. Or maybe begin by watching Unacknowledged..on Netflix. That doc will knock your Sox off, amigos. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6400614/ Edited May 9, 2018 by Velocity_Boy
Velocity_Boy Posted May 9, 2018 Posted May 9, 2018 Oops....that would be one Richard Doty. Sorry. My goof. More on him here...... https://www.huffingtonpost.com/alejandro-rojas/exair-force-law-enforceme_b_5312650.html Intelligent beings visiting Earth not only CAN be looked at as science....it is science. And of the highest order. Imagine how much more addvanced they are than we. Since they have to be travelling at least 4.3 light years to get here to the third rock. Thus...their science is to ours what is your high school frog dissection to modern neurosurgery. This dude maybe did more than anyone on Earth to discredit UFO apologists. Even went do far as to destroy lives doing it. All in the emoloy of Uncle. He is quite candid about it. And had never been discredited. Hmm. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/alejandro-rojas/exair-force-law-enforceme_b_5312650.html
arc Posted May 9, 2018 Posted May 9, 2018 On 4/21/2018 at 9:20 AM, Moontanman said: The 1952 Washington DC sighting was and still is one of the most inexplicable encounters on record. Multiple independent civilian eye witnesses, multiple independent military eye witnesses, multiple independent radar returns, actual interaction with both civilian and military aircraft the sighting is an extraordinary event. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952_Washington,_D.C._UFO_incident Moon, I'm rather hurt. I thought I gave a reasonable argument that this was instead just natural phenomena causing confusion and wild speculation. https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/82231-ufo-smoking-gun/ Don't make me re-post those arguments!
Moontanman Posted May 9, 2018 Author Posted May 9, 2018 13 hours ago, Mordred said: Data the the majority of the professional scientific community accept as evidence lol. Good luck How about multiple independent eye witnesses military and civilian, multiple independent radar military and civilian, and interaction with commercial and military aircraft? all in one sighting? Would that peak your interest at all? Evidence is a rather odd thing when it comes to phenomena that are unknowns but have an effect on reality. Many people choose to ignore evidence if it doesn't fit in with what they think or want to be possible. If the evidence for a sighting is too good to ignore it becomes an obvious hoax if it's iffy then it becomes something we don't have enough data on to identify the object. Believe it or not the professional scientific community does have people who think there is something going on that should be investigated instead of ridiculed. As far as I know ridicule has never been part of the scientific method nor has ignoring data because the Air Force says so. 7 hours ago, smokequitterv2 said: This is a UFO , Lol No, it's the sun seen through a layer of smog... 9 hours ago, arc said: Moon, I'm rather hurt. I thought I gave a reasonable argument that this was instead just natural phenomena causing confusion and wild speculation. https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/82231-ufo-smoking-gun/ Don't make me re-post those arguments! Well you may have thought you gave a reasonable argument, actually you were arguing with a man who had a migraine and couldn't think. It's easy to cherry pick parts of a sighting to explain but unless you have a coherent explanation that covers both the easy to explain and the more difficult then you are simply cherry picking... 9 hours ago, arc said: Moon, I'm rather hurt. I thought I gave a reasonable argument that this was instead just natural phenomena causing confusion and wild speculation. https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/82231-ufo-smoking-gun/ Don't make me re-post those arguments! Well you may have thought you gave a reasonable argument, actually you were arguing with a man who had a migraine and couldn't think. It's easy to cherry pick parts of a sighting to explain but unless you have a coherent explanation that covers both the easy to explain and the more difficult then you are simply cherry picking... A couple interesting links. http://www.openminds.tv/scientific-study-of-ufos-to-be-focus-of-new-organization/41238 http://www.explorescu.org/
StringJunky Posted May 9, 2018 Posted May 9, 2018 I think the probability of life elsewhere is pretty much a given but life within travelling distance I'm not so sure. Probably, the way to go about is consider the known physics of how potentially fast an alien craft can travel in some arbitrary time, then draw a sphere of that distance around the Earth and see what possible habitable worlds are within it. If there isn't anywhere fitting the criteria, we can be reasonably confident that these sightings are misidentified.
Moontanman Posted May 9, 2018 Author Posted May 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, StringJunky said: I think the probability of life elsewhere is pretty much a given but life within travelling distance I'm not so sure. Probably, the way to go about is consider the known physics of how potentially fast an alien craft can travel in some arbitrary time, then draw a sphere of that distance around the Earth and see what possible habitable worlds are within it. If there isn't anywhere fitting the criteria, we can be reasonably confident that these sightings are misidentified. Once you get past the idea that planets are necessary the possibilities open up drastically. I think it's quite possible that artificial habitats are very common throughout the Milky Way. The only technology you need that we can't really use at this time is fusion. Once you have controlled fusion, planets and stars become redundant at best. Several alien civilizations could be operating in the Sun's Oort cloud and we would never know unless they decided to check us out due to simple curiosity. I think the idea that ftl is needed before you can star travel is kinda like saying you need supersonic aircraft before you can visit another island in the Pacific. I think the idea that has influenced me the most in this subject are RV's, if you have a reliable RV you don't really need a house nor does it matter if it takes weeks to get to someplace. You are carrying your "world" around with you as you travel. If an RV owner was capable of stopping near a source of raw materials and building another RV and then traveling on would be a bit more accurate analogy... The idea of ftl and vast interstellar empires has sparked our imaginations for many years but the reality will, IMHO, be a bit less flash and more substance than star trek... 16 minutes ago, StringJunky said: I think the probability of life elsewhere is pretty much a given but life within travelling distance I'm not so sure. Probably, the way to go about is consider the known physics of how potentially fast an alien craft can travel in some arbitrary time, then draw a sphere of that distance around the Earth and see what possible habitable worlds are within it. If there isn't anywhere fitting the criteria, we can be reasonably confident that these sightings are misidentified. This video is by Isaac Arthur a physicist and futurist who seems to have my thought patterns down pretty close... Some of these ideas come across much better when explained in a video than simply reading about them. Some really good productions are coming out of youtube! Of course the nonsense is still there as well...
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