What is faith?

[Moontanman]

13 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I think the breakdown in discussions between the religious and those who are not is that so often one side doesn't really listen to the other. I don't think Eric was trying to tell you why you should use faith, but was instead telling you what faith means to him and how he uses it. As with most things there are many ways to approach a problem. 

With parachuting Eric uses his religious techniques, you use risk analysis, while others use financial, image or adrenaline considerations. In short, each of us uses what is important and useful to us as individuals. Not everyone relies strictly on logic and science.

Then again some of us pack our own chutes... 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Moontanman
spelling

[dimreepr]

5 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Then again some of us pack out own chutes... 

and tomorrow will tell...

[Phi for All]

21 hours ago, zapatos said:

I may have just missed it but I didn't notice that claim by Eric H. I just saw him say he has faith, and things have worked out.

He said faith helps him take risks that might end in him getting hurt. I don't think it's a big leap to interpret that as faith that his god will protect him, or make things work out well, however mysterious it may seem.

21 hours ago, zapatos said:

What he said was that he initiated the interaction by praying to god for help. He didn't say God tells him to do things outside his comfort zone.

Don't mean to be difficult but it feels like you are putting words in Eric's mouth to bolster your position.

He said he prays for help to do things outside his comfort zone he wouldn't normally be capable of. People do this without prayer, without the religious perspective, all the time. I was asking him if he thought it was his god urging him to do these things. It could be that he wanted to do this on his own and uses prayer to give him courage. It could also be that he felt "moved" to take these out-of-character risks by whatever means his god uses to encourage him. It could be something else. I felt it was important to ask.

 

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

He said faith helps him take risks that might end in him getting hurt.

 

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I don't think it's a big leap to interpret that as faith that his god will protect him, or make things work out well, however mysterious it may seem.

 

That's an interesting interpretation.

Edited April 20, 2019 by zapatos

[naitche]

15 hours ago, Intrigued said:

I suspected as much, but I'm not clear what point you were trying to make. I think most would agree that perspective can and often does influence the questions we ask as well as the answers we give. Many would say, and I would agree, that this is normal and understood and not necessarily negative. All well and good, but how are you tying this into the role, or character  of faith?

 

Because I think it indicates there are basically two ways to approach the problem. 

One is from the perspective of environment, and the other as identity. 

Environmental perspective would be

some thing adds value, subtracts value, or has neutral effect.

It does not respond. It can only reject based on those values. Support or rejection isn't from the 'area' of environment, its from the content of environment. Weather or not a condition can find support there for its values. Based on those it has, and their ability to recognise another.

A person who who does not 'identify' with that condition as 'Human' or part of a common Human direction (in evolutionary terms) is more likely to see it from that  perspective. The person who sees their identity as some thing other, or independent of that condition. The person who puts faith in their own conditions of being or identity as the 'correct' manifestation of Humanity. The condition that  'shields' their Humanity from these 'other' conditions or  harm. If their own conditions of being were universal to the Human environment, the threat of those 'other',  harmful conditions would not exist. Then they could recognise  a common identity as theirs.

So to varied extents, faith imposes its own conditions on its environment. As 'Right' for Humanity or Identity. And reduces its environmental diversity to do so.

The second approach would be to recognise a set of Human conditions are not what they could be, or not contributing effectively to the human condition and to find out why, and how  that can be corrected or improved at its source. What are those 'conditions' acting on? 

Because everything is reduced to identity or environment. Identity is what is accepted as part of self. What that self  takes response -ability for, or respond to, to uphold its  self condition.

From your point, or perspective, as a single human organism, your dimensions and conditions are decided, by your genetic make up or internal direction with external factors being affective to that condition.

But your genetics have for the most part limited your own condition or point and its evolution is finished. 

I think cultures do the same for humanity, and we need to be careful in how we allow a Human identity to define itself. Recognition of its parts does not mean acceptance of their conditions. Just recognition of them as something to work with instead of against, to establish mutual values that don't detract from either. That contribute to the available space of both through their interaction. like our own cells do for their body content and condition.

 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, naitche said:

Support or rejection isn't from the 'area' of environment,

More precisely, it’s from a reconstruction of the environment, after the fact

[Eric H]

21 hours ago, Intrigued said:

 If I think I might like to make a parachute jump I carry out what in current buzz words is called a risk assessment. This might include a look at the accident statistics for jumps, discussion with experienced and novice jumpers, reviews of the group or company I shall make the jump with, objective examination of the physical skill set and mental attitude I would bring to the jump, relevance of weather conditions and landing terrain, etc. On completion of that analysis I would have a realistic, semi-quantitative measure of the risk involved in a jump.

What you have described is just an exercise in critical thinking, there are no risks in critical thinking; that is until you put your plan into action.

Quote

Faith would have no relevance.

Change the word faith to trust. You know that when you jump out the plane, your life will depend on the parachute, you have to fully trust that everything will work this time. When you jump; the success rate of previous jumps become irrelevant.

[naitche]

21 hours ago, iNow said:

More precisely, it’s from a reconstruction of the environment, after the fact

Yes, thank you.

 

[naitche]

On 4/21/2019 at 1:51 PM, naitche said:

 

Because I think it indicates there are basically two ways to approach the problem. 

 

 

I should have have included  the 3rd approach, Of viewing every thing as either self ( identity, ) or environment ( the conditions we have )

Comments made by Eric H and others including myself seem to indicate that reduction is not always a result of faith. But the idea of blocking or shielding seems to hold.

If conditions are subjective limitations, over come through recognition and response, I'm going to say purpose gives direction (or dimension) .

Direction and purpose are  inherent to  biological identity for  its integrity. Much of its condition is also inherent, which affects Response. So maybe accepting or taking in  conditions  beyond the self , Conditions Response.

Redirects  response and purpose to upholding integrity of the secondary identity, and the conditions its founded on.

The most beneficial manifestation of 'Faith' in the Religious sense,  could be to block that secondary conditioned response. Keep it  open to diverse direction, and ability of response.

Still gives  me some concept of what a multiverse might be.

Needless to say, mathematics are not my strength and might explain  why I have so much trouble untangling and expressing the values I need @Strange

Edited April 22, 2019 by naitche

[Strange]

1 hour ago, naitche said:

Needless to say, mathematics are not my strength

Neither is communicating clearly.

[dimreepr]

On 4/21/2019 at 4:51 AM, naitche said:

Because I think it indicates there are basically two ways to approach the problem.

What problem?

1 hour ago, naitche said:

I should have have included  the 3rd approach, Of viewing every thing as either self ( identity, ) or environment ( the conditions we have )

Comments made by Eric H and others including myself seem to indicate that reduction is not always a result of faith. But the idea of blocking or shielding seems to hold.

If conditions are subjective limitations, over come through recognition and response, I'm going to say purpose gives direction (or dimension) .

Direction and purpose are  inherent to  biological identity for  its integrity. Much of its condition is also inherent, which affects Response. So maybe accepting or taking in  conditions  beyond the self , Conditions Response.

Redirects  response and purpose to upholding integrity of the secondary identity, and the conditions its founded on.

The most beneficial manifestation of 'Faith' in the Religious sense,  could be to block that secondary conditioned response. Keep it  open to diverse direction, and ability of response.

Still gives  me some concept of what a multiverse might be.

Needless to say, mathematics are not my strength and might explain  why I have so much trouble untangling and expressing the values I need @Strange

If you're trying to make sense, please try harder. 

 

[Strange]

1 hour ago, naitche said:

Comments made by Eric H and others including myself seem to indicate that reduction is not always a result of faith.

Reduction of what?

1 hour ago, naitche said:

But the idea of blocking or shielding seems to hold.

Blocking or shielding what? From what?

1 hour ago, naitche said:

If conditions are subjective limitations, over come through recognition and response, I'm going to say purpose gives direction (or dimension) .

What conditions? Why would they be subjective limitations? You mean "overcome" not "over come". How does "recognition and response" overcome the conditions? What "response" are you suggesting? What do you mean by "direction"? How on earth can you use "dimension" as a synonym for "direction"?

1 hour ago, naitche said:

Direction and purpose are  inherent to  biological identity for  its integrity.

Are they? What evidence do you have for that? What do you mean by "biological identity"? What do you mean by "integrity"? How do "direction and purpose" relate to "integrity"?

1 hour ago, naitche said:

Much of its condition is also inherent, which affects Response.

What is "it"? In other words, "much of what's condition"? And how does it affect response? ("Response should not have a capital R).

1 hour ago, naitche said:

So maybe accepting or taking in  conditions  beyond the self , Conditions Response.

This is very unclear. Is "conditions" acting as a verb here? It and "response" should not have capital letters; it makes them look ;ike proper nouns and makes the sentence unparsable.

1 hour ago, naitche said:

The most beneficial manifestation of 'Faith' in the Religious sense,  could be to block that secondary conditioned response.

What "secondary conditioned response"? (Neither "faith" nor "religious" should have capital letters.)

What evidence do you have that that "faith blocks secondary conditioned response"?

1 hour ago, naitche said:

Still gives  me some concept of what a multiverse might be.

What on Earth has any of this got to do with the multiverse. That is just crazy.

 

In short, most of your sentences make no sense. Those that might have some meaning appear to be just unsupported assertions.

 

[dimreepr]

On 4/21/2019 at 4:51 AM, naitche said:

Because I think it indicates there are basically two ways to approach the problem.

People have faith because they believe in something unproven, not a problem; until the politicians see a way to exploit it.  

[Eric H]

On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 5:31 PM, Phi for All said:

He said faith helps him take risks that might end in him getting hurt. I don't think it's a big leap to interpret that as faith that his god will protect him, or make things work out well, however mysterious it may seem.

I could just sit at home and moan about the problems, or try and do something. As I have said before, I would like my town to be a kinder and more caring place to live in; we should strive to be the change we want to see.

On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 5:31 PM, Phi for All said:

He said he prays for help to do things outside his comfort zone he wouldn't normally be capable of.

Prayer helps me to overcome fear, worry and anxiety. I see this as a positive aspect of faith, we need all the help we can get.  

Quote

People do this without prayer, without the religious perspective, all the time.

Having seen many fights over the last eleven years, the only other people we have witnessed trying to bring about some kind of solution are big burly doormen and the police.

Quote

I was asking him if he thought it was his god urging him to do these things. It could be that he wanted to do this on his own and uses prayer to give him courage. It could also be that he felt "moved" to take these out-of-character risks by whatever means his god uses to encourage him. It could be something else. I felt it was important to ask.

You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God. If God cares about everyone, then I should also care about everyone. That includes all the hooligans we see; who are punching the living daylights out of each other.

[Phi for All]

15 minutes ago, Eric H said:

I could just sit at home and moan about the problems, or try and do something. As I have said before, I would like my town to be a kinder and more caring place to live in; we should strive to be the change we want to see.

Prayer helps me to overcome fear, worry and anxiety. I see this as a positive aspect of faith, we need all the help we can get.  

Having seen many fights over the last eleven years, the only other people we have witnessed trying to bring about some kind of solution are big burly doormen and the police.

You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God. If God cares about everyone, then I should also care about everyone. That includes all the hooligans we see; who are punching the living daylights out of each other.

As I've said before, I'm not questioning your motives. I think you're taking a positive stand and hoping to help your community by doing something nobody else is doing. Don't feel the need to defend your actions, because they aren't being attacked.

Do you think your god has been keeping you from harm in these instances, as a result of your faith and prayers?

[naitche]

On 4/22/2019 at 9:19 PM, Strange said:

Neither is communicating clearly.

If thats what you'd   rather discuss,  I accept thats another disability I have.  I'm sure you have your own.

On 4/22/2019 at 9:20 PM, dimreepr said:

What problem?

If you're trying to make sense, please try harder. 

 

If thats meant to be encouraging, please try harder.

Otherwise, your meaning is unclear and it comes across as bullying on the basis of my disability.

I'm disapointed that a science forum would accept that, rather than encouraging people to explore ideas, even they have trouble expressing  them. 

On 4/22/2019 at 11:22 PM, dimreepr said:

People have faith because they believe in something unproven, not a problem; until the politicians see a way to exploit it.  

Politics? Its seems you have made associations or some sort of picture after all, that you would prefer to turn around.

[dimreepr]

4 hours ago, naitche said:

If thats meant to be encouraging, please try harder.

Otherwise, your meaning is unclear and it comes across as bullying on the basis of my disability.

I'm disapointed that a science forum would accept that, rather than encouraging people to explore ideas, even they have trouble expressing  them. 

Stop playing the victim, this is a discussion site and if you refuse to make any sense, at all, a discussion is not possible, whatever the excuse. 

[Eric H]

10 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Do you think your god has been keeping you from harm in these instances, as a result of your faith and prayers?

We go out in our weakness; and yes; I believe that God has kept us safe; but there are no guarantees for the future. I think the type of person who would find it harder to be a Street Pastor; would be someone like a super fit karate champion. The temptation might be to go out in their own strength and knowledge; but the peaceful solutions we seek do not depend on our strength. The volunteers who amaze me the most are the ladies in their sixties and over, they just seem to have a sense of peace and joy. These are the last people who should be wondering the streets until the early hours.

 

 

[Strange]

6 hours ago, naitche said:

If thats meant to be encouraging, please try harder.

Otherwise, your meaning is unclear and it comes across as bullying on the basis of my disability.

I'm disapointed that a science forum would accept that, rather than encouraging people to explore ideas, even they have trouble expressing  them. 

I have no idea about your disability (I am not a mind reader) but I did attempt to be helpful and encouraging by explaining in detail what made each of your sentences incomprehensible. You could look at that feedback and use it to improve your writing. 

There seem to be two main problems:

1. You use pronouns (“it”) and verbs with no obvious referent so it is very hard to know what the “thing” is that you are talking about

2. You seem to use words in non-standard ways so it is completely unclear what you are trying to say. 

So: be more explicit about what you are referring to and check the meanings of words in a dictionary before using them

[Phi for All]

On 4/20/2019 at 1:20 PM, zapatos said:

That's an interesting interpretation.

5 hours ago, Eric H said:

We go out in our weakness; and yes; I believe that God has kept us safe; but there are no guarantees for the future.

And apparently, it was the correct interpretation of what Eric H meant.

[naitche]

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Stop playing the victim, this is a discussion site and if you refuse to make any sense, at all, a discussion is not possible, whatever the excuse. 

I did. No one asked you to waste your time.

 

[dimreepr]

 

 

 

1 minute ago, naitche said:

I did. No one asked you to waste your time.

There you go again... Did what? Who said I'm wasting my time?

[naitche]

5 hours ago, Strange said:

I have no idea about your disability (I am not a mind reader) but I did attempt to be helpful and encouraging by explaining in detail what made each of your sentences incomprehensible. You could look at that feedback and use it to improve your writing. 

There seem to be two main problems:

1. You use pronouns (“it”) and verbs with no obvious referent so it is very hard to know what the “thing” is that you are talking about

2. You seem to use words in non-standard ways so it is completely unclear what you are trying to say. 

So: be more explicit about what you are referring to and check the meanings of words in a dictionary before using them

I agree. Sorry,  I hit further than I should have 

I  see what you are trying to do and will try to use the feedback.

As for my 'disabilities' they haven't been that usually. Here, its self evident.

The point I was trying to make was,  that is all we can go on here. The evidence.

Edited April 24, 2019 by naitche

[zapatos]

On 4/20/2019 at 11:31 AM, Phi for All said:

I don't think it's a big leap to interpret that as faith that his god will protect him

 

7 hours ago, Eric H said:

there are no guarantees for the future

 

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

And apparently, it was the correct interpretation of what Eric H meant.

 

I didn't mean to take this discussion off track, but I'm still not seeing your interpretation of his comments as quite accurate.

[Phi for All]

24 minutes ago, naitche said:

Sorry,  I hit further than I should have 

This is an example of Strange's observation #2. I have no idea what you mean by "hit further" than you should have. I would use "hit further" if I was talking about swinging a baseball bat harder so the ball would travel a longer distance. Perhaps you meant "I overreached", or "I went into too much detail", or "I assumed too much"?

28 minutes ago, naitche said:

As for my 'disabilities' they haven't been that usually. Here, its self evident.

This is an example of #1. "They" obviously refers to your "disabilities", but what does "that" refer to? And when we don't know what "that" refers to, we don't know what "it" refers to when you claim "it's self evident". Also, I think you're making an invalid assumption here. I didn't know about your disabilities until you mentioned them, so it may not be true that they're "self evident".

 

I prefer discussions on forums because I can write what I want to say, re-read it, re-write it to flow better as sentences, and make sure I'm being well understood through the words I use. It takes practice, and you have the right attitude about improvement, so I don't think this will always be a problem for you. You're definitely a smart individual.

6 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I didn't mean to take this discussion off track, but I'm still not seeing your interpretation of his comments as quite accurate.

He claims his god has protected him and kept him safe whenever he places himself in danger by confronting drunks. You only quoted the "there are no guarantees for the future" part, but together with "I believe God has kept us safe" it seems pretty clear that it's his faith and his god's variable nature that preclude any "guarantees". If his faith hadn't been strong enough, or if it was God's will that a drunk shoot him with a gun, then keeping him safe wouldn't be guaranteed.  

I don't think this is off-topic at all. Faith is strong beliefs not based on reason, and this seems like a pretty clear example of it. Eric H uses it to convince himself that if he believes strongly enough, and trusts that his god's will is always going to work out for the best, that these situations won't end badly. He believes God has kept him and his fellows safe, how am I being inaccurate? Why hasn't Eric H objected to my interpretation?