What is faith?

[zapatos]

40 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

He believes God has kept him and his fellows safe, how am I being inaccurate? 

I thought you were inaccurate because your interpretation was that "his god will protect him" (in the future).

While Eric said his god has kept him safe (in the past), he specifically pointed out that he has no idea if his god will protect him in the future.

I think the distinction is important because going into harm's way with a feeling of god-given invulnerability speaks of delusion which I don't think Eric is displaying. He seems to be using faith more as a way to give him strength of purpose to do what he believes in, while remaining based in reality with the knowledge that any given night may turn out poorly for him.

[Phi for All]

38 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I thought you were inaccurate because your interpretation was that "his god will protect him" (in the future).

While Eric said his god has kept him safe (in the past), he specifically pointed out that he has no idea if his god will protect him in the future.

I think the distinction is important because going into harm's way with a feeling of god-given invulnerability speaks of delusion which I don't think Eric is displaying. He seems to be using faith more as a way to give him strength of purpose to do what he believes in, while remaining based in reality with the knowledge that any given night may turn out poorly for him.

That's an interesting interpretation.

[zapatos]

30 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

That's an interesting interpretation.

Seemed kind of obvious to me. Most people who display confidence going into difficult situations do so because they have reason to think they have a good chance for a favorable outcome. Either because of their strength, skill, intelligence, faith, experience, analysis, money, or whatever. And when they are successful they typically attribute their success to those factors. But they don't usually go in thinking they are 100% guaranteed to be successful.

If someone goes into a difficult situation believing they are invulnerable, it is not due to their faith (or boxing skills, or whatever), it is due to their detachment from reality.

Having faith is not a detachment from reality, unless of course you can prove there is no god.

[koti]

16 hours ago, zapatos said:

I thought you were inaccurate because your interpretation was that "his god will protect him" (in the future).

While Eric said his god has kept him safe (in the past), he specifically pointed out that he has no idea if his god will protect him in the future.

I think the distinction is important because going into harm's way with a feeling of god-given invulnerability speaks of delusion which I don't think Eric is displaying. He seems to be using faith more as a way to give him strength of purpose to do what he believes in, while remaining based in reality with the knowledge that any given night may turn out poorly for him.

Correct me if I misunderstood;

Someone who lives in delusion in the past or in the current moment is not delusional as opposed to someone who expects things to happen and only correlates those with god after they happen? Is there a difference between „I’m so lucky in my life, I owe it all to the all mighty” and „I will be successful in life because the all mighty will protect me” ?

[Eric H]

14 hours ago, zapatos said:

Most people who display confidence going into difficult situations do so because they have reason to think they have a good chance for a favorable outcome.

One night we observed a couple of lads in an ally, the lads saw us and they came towards us and pointing at us they said, walk on. I knew their anger was directed at us, and I said to my partner that we should walk away. He said, have you seen those other lads climbing over the garden wall? I hadn't seen them, but the moment they were pointed out was the moment I knew we would have to stay.

All the lads came over, we were threatened and pushed around a bit before all the lads walked off. We noted this incident in our report the following day, and the police get a copy. The police caught up with these lads and asked us to make a statement; but I said no. First of all I am a Christian, and I am supposed to forgive, how can I forgive them if you punish them first? My ideal outcome would be, that we sit in a room with these lads, they talk, we talk, then the lads walk away. Sadly the police did not accept this as a solution.

People often have a right to be angry, and this was the case for the most angry lad we met on that night. We later found out that he had never got on with his dad, then his dad had cancer and they started to make up, then sadly his dad died. We have since journeyed with this lad for a few years and we are starting to see a change.

So zapatos, when you say people often look for a good outcome, we often don't know what the problem is, or how to go for the good outcome. Sometimes these good things take months and years to come about, it seems that we often have to consider what is good for other people, rather than what is good for us.

 

[Intrigued]

20 hours ago, zapatos said:

 Most people who display confidence going into difficult situations do so because they have reason to think they have a good chance for a favorable outcome.

I realise my comment is possibly made irrelevant by your use of the word "most", however, I am most likely to display confidence in a difficult situaiton because I know that failure to do so will almost certainly result in an unfavourable outcome. My observation is that this is actually commonplace. I cite stage fright as a classic example.

20 hours ago, zapatos said:

If someone goes into a difficult situation believing they are invulnerable, it is not due to their faith (or boxing skills, or whatever), it is due to their detachment from reality.

Many successful salespersons use exactly this technique. They sell the service or product to themselves, if only for the duration of the sale, before selling it to the client. In such a case detachment from reality is recognition of a wider reality. .

[dimreepr]

 

 

 

 

3

6 minutes ago, Intrigued said:

I realise my comment is possibly made irrelevant by your use of the word "most", however, I am most likely to display confidence in a difficult situaiton because I know that failure to do so will almost certainly result in an unfavourable outcome. My observation is that this is actually commonplace. I cite stage fright as a classic example.

I'm not sure stage fright involves much, actual, jeopardy, but I get your point; when I was atop a waterfall in my kayak, back peddling with fear surging, I remember saying "fuck it" to myself and went for it, but not with any faith just hope and excitement.

[zapatos]

14 hours ago, koti said:

Correct me if I misunderstood;

Someone who lives in delusion in the past or in the current moment is not delusional as opposed to someone who expects things to happen and only correlates those with god after they happen? Is there a difference between „I’m so lucky in my life, I owe it all to the all mighty” and „I will be successful in life because the all mighty will protect me” ?

Not so much 'misunderstood' as let your bias show through. I doubt the medical profession categorizes those who believe they have benefited from god as "delusional". That is your characterization.

 

 

9 hours ago, Intrigued said:

I realise my comment is possibly made irrelevant by your use of the word "most", however, I am most likely to display confidence in a difficult situaiton because I know that failure to do so will almost certainly result in an unfavourable outcome. My observation is that this is actually commonplace. I cite stage fright as a classic example.

What I actually meant to say was that "Most people who display HAVE confidence going into difficult situations,  do so HAVE IT because they have reason to think they have a good chance for a favorable outcome."

[Eric H]

6 hours ago, zapatos said:

"Most people who display HAVE confidence going into difficult situations,  do so HAVE IT because they have reason to think they have a good chance for a favorable outcome."

In 2011 I had tests done for cancer, about a month later the doctor phoned and said he urgently wanted to see me, it was non – Hodgkin Lymphoma. This was a name I recognised, our friend had this cancer, and died a few months later. I prayed for the wisdom, strength and peace to do God’s will, whether the cancer was a death sentence, or just an inconvenience. I can only say that from the moment of making this prayer, I have experienced a profound sense of peace, and the thought of cancer has never troubled me for a moment.

Cancer could be a truly worrying process, you wait a month or two for tests, you wait for the results, and you wait for more tests. I have never once prayed for healing, at the age of 62, the prayer for healing seemed too complicated, it might or might not be my time to go. Recognising this profound sense of peace comes from God, gives me reason to be thankful.

[Intrigued]

9 hours ago, zapatos said:

What I actually meant to say was that "Most people who display HAVE confidence going into difficult situations,  do so HAVE IT because they have reason to think they have a good chance for a favorable outcome."

That I can readily agree with. The accuracy of their faith/belief/assessment has no impact upon that confidence, until and unless events show it to have been unfounded.

[Eric H]

10 minutes ago, Intrigued said:

That I can readily agree with. The accuracy of their faith/belief/assessment has no impact upon that confidence, until and unless events show it to have been unfounded.

Faith does not make anyone bullet proof,  faith is only faith when you come through these trials, and try one more time. We are out on the streets tonight until around 4 am tomorrow, we hope for a good outcome as we have done for the last eleven years; but this is not in our power to know. We have come into contact with fights when broken bottles have been used. On two occasions we met people with knives, and after a long conversation, encouraged them to hand the knives to us. We carry nothing  to protect us.

[Intrigued]

1 minute ago, Eric H said:

Faith does not make anyone bullet proof,  faith is only faith when you come through these trials, and try one more time. We are out on the streets tonight until around 4 am tomorrow, we hope for a good outcome as we have done for the last eleven years; but this is not in our power to know. We have come into contact with fights when broken bottles have been used. On two occasions we met people with knives, and after a long conversation, encouraged them to hand the knives to us. We carry nothing  to protect us.

I don't see anything in my post that suggests I think faith makes anyone bullet proof. In fact, the reverse is true as my second sentence clearly introduces the possibility of failure.

I applaud your efforts to help bring calm to your community and accept that faith plays a key role in enabling you to engage in this way. However, as yet I cannot see what you mean by faith. Now, I can imagine engaging in the same actions as yourself. I would do so with the hope that I would come through relatively unscathed and would have made some positive contribution along the way. I would recognise that there was a possibility that things might not go well, for either my "clients" or myself. But I would hope for the best and make such plans and preparations to make this more likely. So what I am not getting is where faith comes into this picture, and just what it is, from your perspective.

[dimreepr]

4 hours ago, Intrigued said:

I applaud your efforts to help bring calm to your community and accept that faith plays a key role in enabling you to engage in this way.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Intrigued said:

However, as yet I cannot see what you mean by faith. Now, I can imagine engaging in the same actions as yourself. I would do so with the hope that I would come through relatively unscathed and would have made some positive contribution along the way.

So you do get it, hope is faith and the more powerful for it.

 

But then everything has a dark side...

[Eric H]

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 10:22 AM, Intrigued said:

Now, I can imagine engaging in the same actions as yourself. I would do so with the hope that I would come through relatively unscathed and would have made some positive contribution along the way. I would recognise that there was a possibility that things might not go well, for either my "clients" or myself. But I would hope for the best and make such plans and preparations to make this more likely.

All these things are just a thought process, and are almost meaningless.

 

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 10:22 AM, Intrigued said:

So what I am not getting is where faith comes into this picture, and just what it is, from your perspective.

Faith only happens when you walk out the door and do something.

[zapatos]

5 hours ago, Eric H said:

Faith only happens when you walk out the door and do something.

Does that imply Papal Cloister nuns have no faith? Or is that only how faith applies to you?

[Intrigued]

8 hours ago, Eric H said:

All these things are just a thought process, and are almost meaningless.

No! They were an attempt to define, through example, my understanding of the meaning of "hope" and, by contrast, "faith". Please re-read it with that in mind and respond accordingly.

 

8 hours ago, Eric H said:

Faith only happens when you walk out the door and do something.

I am sincerely trying to understand your definition of faith. Despite your best efforts, thus far, I have been unsuccessful. The above quote has done nothing to help. I would really appreciate it if you would take the time to offer me your definition directly.

Here is my definition: faith is a confident belief in the claims of an individual, organisation, or philosophy, independent of any substantial objective evidence for that confidence. Since we have also been contrasting hope with faith, here is my definition of hope: a wish that there will be a particular outcome to an event, such a wish being based more on desire than objective probability.

[Eric H]

On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 5:26 PM, Intrigued said:

Here is my definition: faith is a confident belief in the claims of an individual, organisation, or philosophy, independent of any substantial objective evidence for that confidence.

Faith is very much a personal attribute, but I like to think it can be used to bring about some good. I could adjust your quote to read - Here is my definition: faith is a confident belief in the claims of God;  with some substantial objective evidence for that confidence. I understand this is a difficult concept for someone who does not have any belief or dependence in God.

Parachuting is the closest analogy I can think of. No matter how tough you think you are, you would not jump out of a plane at 15,000 feet without a parachute, you know it is going to hurt. If you put a parachute on, that would give you the confidence to jump. If you land safely, then you have the parachute to thank.

In a similar way, faith in God gives me the confidence to go out on the streets and confront angry violence. My hope is that something good will happen. We can spend half an hour with drunken angry people, and that is the start of our journey together, we bump into these people in the months and years to come.  Change is gradual, and we need the resilience and perseverance to keep going, even when things seem bad. We give thanks to God for all the good things that seem to keep happening.

 

 

 

 

 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Eric H said:

Here is my definition: faith is a confident belief in the claims of God;  with some substantial objective evidence for that confidence.

So, for you, faith is hope:

Quote

some substantial objective evidence for that confidence

.Which you don't have, all you have is confirmation bias and that might change tomorrow...

Hope for the best and prepare for the worst, I have faith that that's the best way forward. 

[zapatos]

19 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

.Which you don't have, all you have is confirmation bias and that might change tomorrow...

 

"Substantial objective evidence" means something different to the theist than it does to the scientist. 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

"Substantial objective evidence" means something different to the theist than it does to the scientist. 

Doesn't change tomorrow though.

[zapatos]

23 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Doesn't change tomorrow though.

Some flowers are red.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Some flowers are red.

LOL

[Eric H]

15 hours ago, zapatos said:

"Substantial objective evidence" means something different to the theist than it does to the scientist. 

There might be a billion Muslims and a billion Christians who have a faith; each one of them probably has their own "Substantial objective evidence" for their belief. Just because they have their evidence, this does not mean that I should believe too. I have seen many God coincidences happen through prayer and trust in God.  The "Substantial objective evidence" that has the biggest impact on my life; is the profound sense of peace I experience in times when I should be fearful and worried.

 

[Strange]

41 minutes ago, Eric H said:

each one of them probably has their own "Substantial objective evidence" for their belief. 

Therefore it is subjective not objective. 

42 minutes ago, Eric H said:

The "Substantial objective evidence" that has the biggest impact on my life; is the profound sense of peace I experience in times when I should be fearful and worried.

You need to look up the words subjective and objective in the dictionary. 

Your “sense of peace” is not objective evidence. 

[Intrigued]

6 hours ago, Eric H said:

.  The "Substantial objective evidence" that has the biggest impact on my life; is the profound sense of peace I experience in times when I should be fearful and worried.

I can generate this "profound sense of peace" with three double Drambuie on ice. Does that mean I should worship whiskey distillers and hope to go to the Isle of Skye when I die?