Moontanman Posted May 12, 2019 Posted May 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, dimreepr said: What's so special about your tomorrow? Last I heard tomorrow, for our sun, is about 5 billion years away... By definition my tomorrow is 12:15 from now... but the sun will not appear to rise for around 6 hours after that but the appearance is an illusion just like "faith". Anything can believed on faith, Cthulhu can be believed on faith, I can believe you are Cthulhu on faith, I can believe you are unaware of being Cthulhu on faith. Faith is never a sure path to knowledge and in fact is the most dishonest way to proclaim knowledge...
dimreepr Posted May 12, 2019 Posted May 12, 2019 1 minute ago, Moontanman said: By definition my tomorrow is 12:15 from now... but the sun will not appear to rise for around 6 hours after that but the appearance is an illusion just like "faith". Anything can believed on faith, Cthulhu can be believed on faith, I can believe you are Cthulhu on faith, I can believe you are unaware of being Cthulhu on faith. Faith is never a sure path to knowledge and in fact is the most dishonest way to proclaim knowledge... When did I say faith equals, or is a path to, knowledge? The most dishonest way to proclaim knowledge is to assume you know.
Moontanman Posted May 12, 2019 Posted May 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, dimreepr said: When did I say faith equals, or is a path to, knowledge? The most dishonest way to proclaim knowledge is to assume you know. I do not assume anything, you are the other hand have been at least pretending to assume that faith is a good way to know. All I have said is that faith is not a reliable path to knowledge. Personally would go as far to say faith is the opposite of knowledge. Faith is how you ignore reality in favor of what you want to be true...
dimreepr Posted May 12, 2019 Posted May 12, 2019 1 minute ago, Moontanman said: Faith is how you ignore reality in favor of what you want to be true... And that's a two way street. Assuming you're right... You do realise how often "truth" has been used in this forum?
Moontanman Posted May 12, 2019 Posted May 12, 2019 Just now, dimreepr said: And that's a two way street. Assuming you're right... No, reality is not what you ignore in favor of what you want to be true. Reality is what can be shown to be true, faith cannot be shown to be true. Faith can only be believed despite reality...
dimreepr Posted May 12, 2019 Posted May 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, Moontanman said: No, reality is not what you ignore in favor of what you want to be true. Reality is what can be shown to be true, faith cannot be shown to be true. Faith can only be believed despite reality... What do you want to be true? And how far are you willing to dig? We're down the rabbit hole now... Let's dig a little more...
koti Posted May 12, 2019 Posted May 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, dimreepr said: What do you want to be true? And how far are you willing to dig? We're down the rabbit hole now... Let's dig a little more... Dim, youre trying to put an equal sign between faith, truth, knowledge. Or at least youre trying to make truth so subjective that according to you its only valid at this moment and will be different tomorrow. Just a friendly reminder that its not faith which enables you to type this from your device and its nit faith that makes airplanes fly. Its the objective truth that people came up with through science that makes those things work, faith’s got nothing except giving people hope.
dimreepr Posted May 12, 2019 Posted May 12, 2019 1 minute ago, koti said: Dim, youre trying to put an equal sign between faith, truth, knowledge. No, I'm trying to put a baffle between truth and knowledge, but I have no faith the baffle will work.
koti Posted May 12, 2019 Posted May 12, 2019 57 minutes ago, dimreepr said: No, I'm trying to put a baffle between truth and knowledge, but I have no faith the baffle will work. Knowledge -> Airplanes fly = Truth.
DrmDoc Posted May 12, 2019 Author Posted May 12, 2019 2 hours ago, dimreepr said: So we judge and condemn them? My comments were meant to be neither judgements nor condemnation. They were merely observations I've posited for those of us here who may be less self aware. As I perceive, faith is the emergence of humanity's inherent desire to maintain the love, protection, and guidance of its deceased ancestors, parents, or village elders. It emerges from one of humanity's most useful survival tools, which is fear. Faith allievates the fear, doubt, and confusion the faithful would suffer without it. Further, I suggest the greater the fear they harbor, the greater the faithful's efforts to justify and protect their faith--hence the faithful's willingness to engage hostile environs (e.g, scienceforums.net) that potentially erodes faith.
Moontanman Posted May 12, 2019 Posted May 12, 2019 1 hour ago, dimreepr said: No, I'm trying to put a baffle between truth and knowledge, but I have no faith the baffle will work. I would like to know why you think there should be a baffle between them, if you know something to be true then it is knowledge, knowledge is something that is evidently true. 43 minutes ago, DrmDoc said: My comments were meant to be neither judgements nor condemnation. They were merely observations I've posited for those of us here who may be less self aware. As I perceive, faith is the emergence of humanity's inherent desire to maintain the love, protection, and guidance of its deceased ancestors, parents, or village elders. It emerges from one of humanity's most useful survival tools, which is fear. Faith allievates the fear, doubt, and confusion the faithful would suffer without it. Further, I suggest the greater the fear they harbor, the greater the faithful's efforts to justify and protect their faith--hence the faithful's willingness to engage hostile environs (e.g, scienceforums.net) that potentially erodes faith. A false cure is no cure. 1 hour ago, koti said: Knowledge -> Airplanes fly = Truth. Exactly... 1 hour ago, dimreepr said:
Moontanman Posted May 12, 2019 Posted May 12, 2019 22 minutes ago, MandanMaru39 said: Faith is the belief in god . Why would anyone believe in a god?
iNow Posted May 12, 2019 Posted May 12, 2019 13 minutes ago, MandanMaru39 said: What if something (not a person ) created It ? Then we still don’t know what created that something. It’s turtles all the way down...
DrmDoc Posted May 13, 2019 Author Posted May 13, 2019 5 hours ago, Moontanman said: I would like to know why you think there should be a baffle between them, if you know something to be true then it is knowledge, knowledge is something that is evidently true. A false cure is no cure. Exactly... Not a cure but a placebo that's more of a testament to the seemingly miraculous abilities of the mind than the benevolent intercession of some unseen omnipotent entity.
Moontanman Posted May 13, 2019 Posted May 13, 2019 3 hours ago, DrmDoc said: Not a cure but a placebo that's more of a testament to the seemingly miraculous abilities of the mind than the benevolent intercession of some unseen omnipotent entity. Possibly, but faith also inspires suicide bombers, wars, and other horrors that far outweigh any benefits IMHO...
dimreepr Posted May 13, 2019 Posted May 13, 2019 (edited) 17 hours ago, Moontanman said: I would like to know why you think there should be a baffle between them, if you know something to be true then it is knowledge, knowledge is something that is evidently true. Knowledge is flexible/changeable, "the truth", OTOH, is inflexible whichever side claims it; knowledge will change tomorrow but the truth may take weeks/years, even for science. 8 hours ago, Moontanman said: Possibly, but faith also inspires suicide bombers, wars, and other horrors that far outweigh any benefits IMHO... Faith doesn't do that, people do, why else do they need (propaganda) to radicalise them? 16 hours ago, MandanMaru39 said: Usually belief in god is called faith . The universe around us is so mysterious , What if something (not a person ) created It ? Does it matter? 16 hours ago, Moontanman said: Why would anyone believe in a god? Not all of us are educated, not all of us are equipped to think critically about what we're taught, not all of us are privileged, not all of us reject a spiritual aspect to life, not all of us judge... 17 hours ago, Moontanman said: A false cure is no cure. Nor is genocide, besides what needs a cure? 18 hours ago, DrmDoc said: I perceive, faith is the emergence of humanity's inherent desire to maintain the love, protection, and guidance of its deceased ancestors, parents, or village elders. It emerges from one of humanity's most useful survival tools, which is fear. I think it's more fundamental, "it takes a village to raise a child" but first the child needs faith in the village. And this is where trust and faith merge. Edited May 13, 2019 by dimreepr -1
Phi for All Posted May 13, 2019 Posted May 13, 2019 1 hour ago, MandanMaru39 said: It says it exists in many books . In what form , we don't know yet You don't sound open to the possibility that the form (which we don't know) might be non-existent.
Phi for All Posted May 13, 2019 Posted May 13, 2019 52 minutes ago, MandanMaru39 said: I have tried atheism and i have tried god too . Do you collect stamps?
zapatos Posted May 13, 2019 Posted May 13, 2019 9 hours ago, dimreepr said: Faith doesn't do that, people do... Yes, and guns don't kill people, people kill people. But it's a lot more likely if the person has a gun, or in this case, faith. 1
Moontanman Posted May 13, 2019 Posted May 13, 2019 11 hours ago, dimreepr said: Knowledge is flexible/changeable, "the truth", OTOH, is inflexible whichever side claims it; knowledge will change tomorrow but the truth may take weeks/years, even for science. What would be your point? Believe false claims until someone prove them wrong? Not a path to truth or knowledge. In the face of a lack of evidence the default position is to withhold belief. 11 hours ago, dimreepr said: Faith doesn't do that, people do, why else do they need (propaganda) to radicalise them? Yes, the propaganda is called religion. 11 hours ago, dimreepr said: Not all of us are educated, not all of us are equipped to think critically about what we're taught, not all of us are privileged, not all of us reject a spiritual aspect to life, not all of us judge... Withholding belief until evidence is provided is not rejection. 11 hours ago, dimreepr said: Nor is genocide, besides what needs a cure? Whatever the person is using faith to gain comfort from is what needs a cure. 11 hours ago, dimreepr said: I think it's more fundamental, "it takes a village to raise a child" but first the child needs faith in the village. And this is where trust and faith merge. No, faith is a lack of guile, trust is established from past experiences, faith is believing what you want because it's what you want... 5 hours ago, MandanMaru39 said: I have tried atheism and i have tried god too . I like both of it , because both are interesting ideas . How do you try either one of those things? Why does liking them because they are interesting equate to trying them?
dimreepr Posted May 14, 2019 Posted May 14, 2019 (edited) 15 hours ago, zapatos said: Yes, and guns don't kill people, people kill people. But it's a lot more likely if the person has a gun, or in this case, faith. You forgot this bit "why else do they need to radicalise them?", which also has nothing to do with faith (or the gun) and everything to do with hate. 12 hours ago, Moontanman said: Yes, the propaganda is called religion. No it's called propaganda and is by no means restricted to religion. 12 hours ago, Moontanman said: What would be your point? Believe false claims until someone prove them wrong? Not a path to truth or knowledge. In the face of a lack of evidence the default position is to withhold belief. No, my point is that anyone who tries to dictate the truth has no understanding of the word true. 12 hours ago, Moontanman said: Whatever the person is using faith to gain comfort from is what needs a cure. That's a twist, let me get this straight, we need to cure comfortable people??? 12 hours ago, Moontanman said: No, faith is a lack of guile, trust is established from past experiences, faith is believing what you want because it's what you want... Everyone's past starts today, yesterdays trust is today's faith that yesterdays trust will be reaffirmed (I'm guessing you want that). 12 hours ago, Moontanman said: Withholding belief until evidence is provided is not rejection. But it is a judgement on those who don't need the evidence to believe. The bottom line is, we don't need to know what faith is or why others have it, or not, we just need to live and let live; because faith only ever matters when its inspired by hate and that's not faiths fault, nor religions. Edited May 14, 2019 by dimreepr
Moontanman Posted May 14, 2019 Posted May 14, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, dimreepr said: You forgot this bit "why else do they need to radicalise them?", which also has nothing to do with faith (or the gun) and everything to do with hate. No it's called propaganda and is by no means restricted to religion. No, my point is that anyone who tries to dictate the truth has no understanding of the word true. That's a twist, let me get this straight, we need to cure comfortable people??? Everyone's past starts today, yesterdays trust is today's faith that yesterdays trust will be reaffirmed (I'm guessing you want that). But it is a judgement on those who don't need the evidence to believe. The bottom line is, we don't need to know what faith is or why others have it, or not, we just need to live and let live; because faith only ever matters when its inspired by hate and that's not faiths fault, nor religions. I do not know why you insist on arguing so obtusely and, at least to me, dishonestly, it make me wonder if you have an similarly dishonest agenda but it boils down to this, beliefs dictate actions. If you base your beliefs on faith then you can justify anything. Religion, while not the only source of propaganda, is propaganda because the vast majority of it can not only be shown not to be true, religion in fact, and this applies to each and everyone, requires the true faithful to believe things that are dehumanizing. In the Bible and the Quran every last thing that can be tested objectively that defines the religion can be shown to be false. Not to mention every last thing that is asserted about the natural world. If you base your beliefs on having faith in false beliefs then radicalization is easy. What is true can be shown to be true via evidence. Yes, what is considered true can change but what is considered true becomes ever more accurate, to suggest otherwise is dishonest. Newton was overturned by Einstein yet Newton is still "true" to a degree. Einstein only made a more accurate picture of the Universe, Newton was not thrown out and remains accurate enough under most conditions. BTW, religion is hate, hatred of those who are different, believe different, or those who do not cow toe to your religion... Not to mention the superiority of those who do agree with you. If religion was true then everyone should arrive at the same truth but all we see are a constant splitting of religions along lines of disagreement over the truth of it. If not for secular governments we would still be baptists killing quakers and other sects killing and persecuting each other and lets not forget the many millions of people killed because Protestants cannot tolerate Catholics or Sunni tolerate Shia. The list of violence and horrors committed by the "faithful" is long and terrifying... I would suggest you either reveal your agenda or stop trying to obfuscate reality with faith and belief that has no basis in reality... Edited May 14, 2019 by Moontanman
dimreepr Posted May 14, 2019 Posted May 14, 2019 7 minutes ago, Moontanman said: I do not know why you insist on arguing so obtusely and, at least to me, dishonestly, it make me wonder if you have an similarly dishonest agenda but it boils down to this, beliefs dictate actions. If you base your beliefs on faith then you can justify anything. Religion, while not the only source of propaganda, is propaganda because the vast majority of it can not only be shown not to be true, religion in fact, and this applies to each and everyone, requires the true faithful to believe things that are dehumanizing. In the Bible and the Quran every last thing that can be tested objectively that defines the religion can be shown to be false. Not to mention every last thing that is asserted about the natural world. If you base your beliefs on having faith in false beliefs then radicalization is easy. What is true can be shown to be true via evidence. Yes, what is considered true can change but what is considered true becomes ever more accurate, to suggest otherwise is dishonest. Newton was overturned by Einstein yet Newton is still "true" to a degree. Einstein only made a more accurate picture of the Universe, Newton was not thrown out and remains accurate enough under most conditions. I would suggest you either reveal your agenda or stop trying to obfuscate reality with faith and belief that has no basis in reality... What agenda? Live and let live or try not to hate?
Moontanman Posted May 14, 2019 Posted May 14, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, dimreepr said: What agenda? Live and let live or try not to hate? If you are using faith or religion or both to meet that goal then you have failed before you ever started... And BTW, your agenda as you put it suggest that I am promoting hate and yet live and let live is my life's mission but you cannot tolerate those who believe based on the faith of hatred... Edited May 14, 2019 by Moontanman
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