dimreepr Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, Phi for All said: Pay attention, please. Sorry, I was stoned, what did you say?
Phi for All Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Sorry, I was stoned, what did you say? Not me. You admonished FreeWill ("I didn't say that") when he was quoting zapatos, not you. Or did you think he was zapatos?
koti Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 LoL ! 20 minutes ago, Phi for All said: So you've robbed both faith and trust of their individual meanings, in order to be able to say you have faith in science. You steal from your own intellect. Exactly.
FreeWill Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Phi for All said: So you've robbed both faith and trust of their individual meanings, in order to be able to say you have faith in science. You steal from your own intellect. I think faith build on trust. The future has the element of insecurity even the future is highly predictable. The level of insecurity (lack of knowledge) requires a certain level of belief in the choosen personal path One follows to understand Reality. The predictable future outcome can be trusted and believed without absolute evidence, since it is built on Nature we perceive now. I can not really have faith in classical religions. Their explanation of Natural Reality is very lame. Knowledge and experience based belief gives faith (at least for me) Edited May 18, 2019 by FreeWill
Phi for All Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 51 minutes ago, FreeWill said: I think faith build on trust. That's not what ANY dictionary definition supports. Instead, different words are used to distinguish between different concepts. For instance, faith is NOT built on trust, but rather is defined as "firm belief in something for which there is no proof". To equate the two or claim one is built on the other waters down both words. We have two distinct concepts for a good reason. Stop using trust to define faith. They are different approaches to the way we believe in things.
koti Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 53 minutes ago, FreeWill said: I think faith build on trust. The future has the element of insecurity even the future is highly predictable. The level of insecurity (lack of knowledge) requires a certain level of belief in the choosen personal path One follows to understand Reality. The predictable future outcome can be believed without absolute evidence, since it is built Nature. I can not really have faith in classical religions. Their explanation of Natural Reality is very lame. Knowledge and experience based belief gives faith (at least for me) Let me get this straight, according to you if I don’t know something I automatically have to have faith? How about just coming to terms with the fact that you don’t know something, work the best you can with what you have? Also, this is the religion section so the OP question deals with that context of faith and not the one that I have faith in you understanding that words have meaning and its a good idea not to change that meaning so we avoid misunderstanding.
FreeWill Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 (edited) How can we call then the learned and trusted knowledge based firm belief which has no evidence? Edited May 18, 2019 by FreeWill
Moontanman Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 4 hours ago, dimreepr said: Faith is trust backwards, whilst everything moves forwards. But that doesn't mean we should be down on the faithful because we trust the future... You are conflating trust and faith, as usual you continue to obfuscate the issue... 29 minutes ago, FreeWill said: How can we call then the learned and trusted knowledge based firm belief which has no evidence? There is no firm and trusted belief that has no evidence by definition. If you have firm and trusted evidence you do not need belief... 3 hours ago, dimreepr said: So is trust in the future... No, trust is based on past successes.
FreeWill Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, Moontanman said: No, trust is based on past successes , or failur. Faith is in the firmly believed Future. -1
Moontanman Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 Just now, FreeWill said: , or failur. Faith is in the firmly believed Future. Please stop redefining words to fit your own needs. You might have reasonable expectations of the future based on past events but that is not faith...
FreeWill Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Moontanman said: If you have firm and trusted evidence you do not need belief... True. When all the knowledge gained faith can transform to deep absolute trust. Edited May 18, 2019 by FreeWill
Moontanman Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 Just now, FreeWill said: True. When all the knowledge gained faith transforms to deep absolute trust. I doubt the deep and absolute part...
Phi for All Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 52 minutes ago, FreeWill said: How can we call then the learned and trusted knowledge based firm belief which has no evidence? Give us an example. I can't imagine one. 1
FreeWill Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Phi for All said: Give us an example. Faith. Edited May 18, 2019 by FreeWill -1
Moontanman Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 1 minute ago, FreeWill said: Faith. Again redefine words to fit your own needs,
Phi for All Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, FreeWill said: Faith. Why claim faith is trusted? The definition says faith requires nothing trusted. Why do you insist on redefining the words everyone else is using? It certainly makes my further participation meaningless.
FreeWill Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, Moontanman said: I doubt the deep and absolute part... The Theory of Everything will not be simple and shallow otherwise we would already found it and use it. The absolute part a bit over driven. It would be a deep, firm, almost absolute trust anyway.
Moontanman Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 1 minute ago, FreeWill said: The Theory of Everything will not be simple and shallow otherwise we would already found it and use it. The absolute part a bit over driven. It would be a deep, firm, almost absolute trust anyway. I think you need to justify that, a baseless assertion is meaningless...
FreeWill Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 12 minutes ago, Moontanman said: 14 minutes ago, FreeWill said: The Theory of Everything will not be simple and shallow otherwise we would already found it and use it. The absolute part a bit over driven. It would be a deep, firm, almost absolute trust anyway. I think you need to justify that, a baseless assertion is meaningless... As far as I know, we do not know the theory of everything. I know that we know relativity and I know also that 99% of the population do not understand exactly relativity so I can call it difficult and not a simple theory. As it looks like the theory of everything (since we yet did not find it) is more difficult than relativity so I think I can expect that it is complicated and not Simple. If you mean the other part, I already have knowledge based deep firm trust which I think will just deepen as I learn through Life.
Moontanman Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, FreeWill said: As far as I know, we do not know the theory of everything. I know that we know relativity and I know also that 99% of the population do not understand exactly relativity so I can call it difficult and not a simple theory. As it looks like the theory of everything (since we yet did not find it) is more difficult than relativity so I think I can expect that it is complicated and not Simple. If you mean the other part, I already have knowledge based deep firm trust which I think will just deepen as I learn through Life. TOE might be undiscovered for many reasons but what does any of this have to do with religious faith?
FreeWill Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 (edited) Why I can not have trusted knowledge-based firm beliefs? What is it by you Phi? 1 hour ago, Phi for All said: firm belief in something for which there is no proof". Can you give an exact proof on the future of science? If you can not, can I believe that there is a future of science? Edited May 18, 2019 by FreeWill
Moontanman Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 1 minute ago, FreeWill said: Why I can not have trusted knowledge-based firm beliefs? Can you give an exact proof on the future of science? If you can not, can I believe that there is a future of science? Well mainly because this thread is about faith in the religious sense..
FreeWill Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 44 minutes ago, Phi for All said: 1 hour ago, FreeWill said: How can we call then the learned and trusted knowledge based firm belief which has no evidence? Give us an example. How would you call this kind of firm beliefs and why it is not faith? I think the best if I leave this faith topic. It is personal and every one has its own individual understanding (wiki is not clear on it either). Good luck with yours if you have any. Peace.
koti Posted May 18, 2019 Posted May 18, 2019 @FreeWill, I think I might know where the problem is. Firstly, English is obviously not your primary language, maybe there are nuances in your native language related to all this? Secondly, you are right that the word „faith” is used colloquially in various situations like „I have faith in science” or „I have faith in humanity” but this thread is strictly about faith in the religious sense which is very well defined, once again faith in the religious context is believing in some kind of religious system, this is perfectly clear and there is no wiggle room for interpretation.
FreeWill Posted May 19, 2019 Posted May 19, 2019 8 hours ago, koti said: you are right that the word „faith” is used colloquially in various situations like „I have faith in science” or „I have faith in humanity” but this thread is strictly about faith in the religious sense For me, the opening post was about to settle what faith is and its relation to science. On 4/29/2018 at 2:39 PM, DrmDoc said: what is faith and why do you have it? My perusal of discussions here suggested to me that some of you do not seem to have a clear perspective of what distinguishes faith from science. Most often arguments against science are used as justification for faith; however, those arguments do not appear to define a basis for your religious faith. What have you observed, experienced, or accomplished that supports your faith? Is that support tangible? My argument was that both require some level of trust and believe. I tried to reason it with examples where to find trust and believe is in science and why to live to learn requires a level of faith. Religion requires trust in misinterpreted evidence to gain belief, while science requires trust in the methodology and some level of belief in the future outcome. Please note that no one will be religious Christian without hearing about it or reading the Bible, i.e without "evidence" there is no belief in the Christian religion. There are many things we can firmly believe in without actual evidence and I think each of those beliefs will require some level of trust.
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