Ten oz Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 7 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said: My idea of faith is based in a belief. The belief is in the idea that the self is what truly exists as dependent on an external reality for an existence. In this way, the self needs to create an external reality by working through what would be called a higher power, in order to exist. The belief is in the higher power that exists as something that the self works through to create reality, in order to create it's existence. This is what is meant when it is said that "I" has a belief in a higher power as responsible for "my" existence or for existence in general. This would answer such a question as "Why does everything around me exist?, based on my own belief. If I believe there are 11 parallel Universes and a 12th universe which in a simulation. That my conscious thought is the higher power which created and controls all in 11 parallel universes. That one of my creations from the first parallel Universe invented a computer using dense matter from the center of a black hole. A computer so powerful that the 12th simulated universe exists inside of it. It is that simulated universe which you and everyone else you have ever known exist with in. That too would answer such questions as "why does everything around me exist?". The wrong answer to a question is still an answer. Do you want answers or do you want the truth?
Endercreeper01 Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 (edited) Faith can lead a path that can lead one to answers. It is a path that can be considered on a personal level in this way. Edited June 23, 2018 by Endercreeper01 -3
iNow Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 Faith based beliefs have been around for thousands of years. Who’s being swift?
Endercreeper01 Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 1 hour ago, beecee said: You have it arse up.....It's you claiming [on a science forum of all places] that your faith/belief/delusion of a higher power has some basis in reality and reason. Faith in any higher power is simply an unscientific, unevidenced, belief in magic and myth, solely because as yet science does not have all the answers...You know, the god of the gaps. Sure...[1] This is a science forum, where subjects/opinions/claims will be scrutinised via the scientific methodology: accept that with logic and aplomb, [2] No one begrudges any person for what he personally believes: That's called personal freedom but [3] don't push your personal baggage onto others: This isn't a pulpit for preaching. [4] Supernatural and/or paranormal beliefs are unscientific and superfluous in the world in this day and age: The universe. spacetime, planets, stars, life can all reasonably be explained at least up to t+10-43 seconds. [5] Beyond that point, we are ignorant: Never be afraid to accept that as long as the search for knowledge is continued and not stymied or short circuited by some mythical higher power. We are star stuff. Does the idea of faith have any legitimacy to you? Or do you consider faith to not have any value in any situation?
Ten oz Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 10 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said: Faith can lead a path that can lead one to answers. It is a path that can be considered on a personal level in this way. Wrong answers are still answers.
Endercreeper01 Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Ten oz said: The wrong answer to a question is still an answer. Do you want answers or do you want the truth? The truth can't be reached without attempting to reach it through answers. Edited June 23, 2018 by Endercreeper01
Ten oz Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said: The truth can't be reached without attempting to reach it through answers. The truth can't be reached without attempting to reach it through research.
Endercreeper01 Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Ten oz said: The truth can't be reached without attempting to reach it through research. Certain existential questions concerning the inner world of the self cannot be answered with research about the outside world.
Ten oz Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 15 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said: Certain existential questions concerning the inner world of the self cannot be answered with research about the outside world. Ones "inner world" can be researched via its interaction, influence, and response to the outside world. For example your parents and culture exist in the outside world yet helped shape your "inner world". A great many things can be predicted about your "inner world" based on the environment of the outside world you were raised in.
dimreepr Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 27 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said: The truth can't be reached without attempting to reach it through answers. you mean questions, you'll never find the "truth" about X by listening to a bunch of random answers about Y or using words without knowing the standard dictionary definition, add to which your continued refusal to listen to the answers provided and here we are our 17th page, it's boring now...
Endercreeper01 Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Ones "inner world" can be researched via its interaction, influence, and response to the outside world. For example your parents and culture exist in the outside world yet helped shape your "inner world". A great many things can be predicted about your "inner world" based on the environment of the outside world you were raised in. That is not what I am taking about. I am taking about questions about the inner world as in the inner self, the observer. It does not make sense to research the external reality to discover the answers to certain questions about the innermost reality of the self. 2 minutes ago, dimreepr said: you mean questions, you'll never find the "truth" about X by listening to a bunch of random answers about Y or using words without knowing the standard dictionary definition, add to which your continued refusal to listen to the answers provided and here we are our 17th page, it's boring now... There's a lot to be said about this topic. Quantity of answers does not determine quality. Edited June 23, 2018 by Endercreeper01
dimreepr Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said: It does not make sense to research the external reality to discover the answers to certain questions about the innermost reality of the self. It's the sentence that doesn't make sense.
Endercreeper01 Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, dimreepr said: It's the sentence that doesn't make sense. To put it another words: It's about looking inwards rather than outwards that leads one down a path to faith. Edited June 23, 2018 by Endercreeper01
koti Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said: That is not what I am taking about. I am taking about questions about the inner world as in the inner self, the observer. It does not make sense to research the external reality to discover the answers to certain questions about the innermost reality of the self. There's a lot to be said about this topic. Quantity of answers does not determine quality. Faith also leads one to believe that he/she is somehow special in nature. Its a recuring theme in people of faith - little knowledge about anything and being convinced they’re special because their ignorant, empty inner self demands respect for being „special”
DrmDoc Posted June 23, 2018 Author Posted June 23, 2018 7 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said: My idea of faith is based in a belief. The belief is in the idea that the self is what truly exists as dependent on an external reality for an existence. In this way, the self needs to create an external reality by working through what would be called a higher power, in order to exist. The belief is in the higher power that exists as something that the self works through to create reality, in order to create it's existence. This is what is meant when it is said that "I" has a belief in a higher power as responsible for "my" existence or for existence in general. This would answer such a question as "Why does everything around me exist?, based on my own belief. If I now understand correctly, belief in a higher power is essential to your idea of faith because believing in something greater than self gives meaning to our reality and self realization. This idea, if I understand your view, gives meaning by compelling us to be or become something greater than what we think we are. Therefore, your idea regards a type of personal mental mantra for life that's driven solely by belief rather than anything particularly tangible. I think its human nature to believe in something greater than self, we are born into this world helpless and reliant on parents who are far greater and more powerful than we are at birth. Although most of us eventually mature into our own and leave our parents for our own life and family, many of us remain psychologically dependent on the enveloping feelings of being cared for and guided by a parental force, a force greater than self. Perhaps in this we might understand faith and why so many of us have it.
beecee Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 54 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said: Does the idea of faith have any legitimacy to you? Or do you consider faith to not have any value in any situation? Your faith is your business. It has though absolutely no scientific value, nor any grounds to believe it in anyway resembles this "truth" you keep mentioning. Nice to see you keep on avoiding answering the difficult questions again.
dimreepr Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Endercreeper01 said: To put it another words: It's about looking inwards rather than outwards that leads one down a path to faith. You mean understanding or possibly peace for that sentence to make sense, do I have to fix all your sentences?
beecee Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, koti said: Yeah but what about before that beecee? Ha! You don’t know do you... therefore higher power! There you have the delusion of faith in a nut shell. It's all his ilk have...the old god of the gaps, or grasping at straws. Edited June 23, 2018 by beecee
dimreepr Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said: It's about looking inwards rather than outwards that leads one down a path to faith. Unless you're trying to explain why you don't listen to anyone or maybe it's a witty (ironic) admission that you were wrong all this time... Hmmm, maybe I'm overthinking this.
Endercreeper01 Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 1 minute ago, koti said: Faith also leads one to believe that he/she is somehow special in nature. Its a recuring theme in people of faith - little knowledge about anything and being convinced they’re special because their ignorant, empty inner self demands respect for being „special” Where you say that "they' think they are special, I would say it a different way. I would say that they see themselves as the conscious observer as being special in some sense. In this sense they would be driven towards faith as a result of such thinking. Just now, dimreepr said: You mean understanding or possibly peace for that sentence to make sense, do I have to fix all your sentences? I don't know what you want me to do if you can't understand my sentences besides trying to explain it again or in a different way... 2 minutes ago, beecee said: Your faith is your business. It has though absolutely no scientific value, nor any grounds to believe it in anyway resembles this "truth" you keep mentioning. Nice to see you keep on avoiding answering the difficult questions again. You could say that there is no ground for my personal faith. I would disagree because I see my faith as grounded in a particular set of beliefs, as part of a world view. Faith has a basis in a personal worldview. 7 minutes ago, DrmDoc said: If I now understand correctly, belief in a higher power is essential to your idea of faith because believing in something greater than self gives meaning to our reality and self realization. This idea, if I understand your view, gives meaning by compelling us to be or become something greater than what we think we are. Therefore, your idea regards a type of personal mental mantra for life that's driven solely by belief rather than anything particularly tangible. I think its human nature to believe in something greater than self, we are born into this world helpless and reliant on parents who are far greater and more powerful than we are at birth. Although most of us eventually mature into our own and leave our parents for our own life and family, many of us remain psychologically dependent on the enveloping feelings of being cared for and guided by a parental force, a force greater than self. Perhaps in this we might understand faith and why so many of us have it. Actually, my idea of faith does not involve a belief in anything higher than the self. In my idea of faith, it does not require a higher power to be distinguished from the action or influence of the self. 1 minute ago, dimreepr said: Unless you're trying to explain why you don't listen to anyone or maybe it's a witty (ironic) admission that you were wrong all this time... Hmmm, maybe I'm overthinking this. Nice thinking, although it hardly defeats my statement....
dimreepr Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said: I don't know what you want me to do if you can't understand my sentences besides trying to explain it again or in a different way... Well whaddayaknow, a strawman. 7 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said: Nice thinking, although it hardly defeats my statement.... It hardly has to...
Endercreeper01 Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 Just now, dimreepr said: Well whaddayaknow, a strawman. That's not a straw man, I was making a statement....
Ten oz Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 18 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said: That is not what I am taking about. I am taking about questions about the inner world as in the inner self, the observer. It does not make sense to research the external reality to discover the answers to certain questions about the innermost reality of the self. You are talking about your own limitations to understand existence and are creating work arounds for what you don't know. You seek accurate answers to question you lack the ability to answer. Hoping you can look inward and miraculously manifest knowledge through faith is a natural egocentric trick the human mind has played for hundreds of thousands of years. Humans have made stuff up to fill in their knowledge gaps throughout history. It is why all ancient cultures have myths about where the sun goes at night and what the dream world really is. What you are observing within yourself as profound is no more significant than a teenagers initial arousal as hormones begin to mature their bodies. It feels unique but is actually standard. You are grappling with the same questions billions of other humans have as well. Faith has failed to provide accurate answers over and over again for millennia.
dimreepr Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 Just now, Endercreeper01 said: That's not a straw man, I was making a statement.... I never said I didn't understand, I said it didn't make sense (as an English sentence) and suggested words to help, even a statement needs to be accurate.
Endercreeper01 Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Ten oz said: You are talking about your own limitations to understand existence and are creating work arounds for what you don't know. You seek accurate answers to question you lack the ability to answer. Hoping you can look inward and miraculously manifest knowledge through faith is a natural egocentric trick the human mind has played for hundreds of thousands of years. Humans have made stuff up to fill in their knowledge gaps throughout history. It is why all ancient cultures have myths about where the sun goes at night and what the dream world really is. What you are observing within yourself as profound is no more significant than a teenagers initial arousal as hormones begin to mature their bodies. It feels unique but is actually standard. You are grappling with the same questions billions of other humans have as well. Faith has failed to provide accurate answers over and over again for millennia. I can't find any truths with absolute certainty, although I can try to develop answers based on my own understanding. There are some leaps of faith that have to be made in order to make any progress. Edited June 23, 2018 by Endercreeper01
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