Mass Murder in Toronto

[MigL]

We had a very disturbing incident in Toronto, Canada, this past Monday.
A man rented a cargo van, and on a beautiful spring day, drove it onto the sidewalk, and ran down multiple people on a busy street.
He managed to kill 10 ( 8 women and 2 men ) and injured another 14.

It was not called a terror attack because there was no political motivation, although it generated the same results.

As more information came out during the week, we learned that this man belonged to a group who call themselves  Incels ( for INvoluntary CELibate ).
They have their own internet forums/chat rooms and call regular people ( who can form/have relationships 'Chads' and 'Stacys'.
This man, Alek Minassian, 25 yrs old,  by all reports fairly intelligent, apparently still a virgin, failed at most of the things he attempted in life, including only 16 days in the Armed Forces before being turfed,and he blamed his inability to have a relationship on society instead of looking in the mirror.
This is the reason I mentioned the sex of his victims, apparently he was targeting women.
He was apprehended by police and now faces 10 counts of murder and 14 attempted murder ( although this is Canada, sentences are served concurrently  with eligibility for parole )

Have we gone too far in absolving people from personal responsibility ? Do we blame society for all of people's problems and not the personal choices they make in life ?
The fact that this idiot blamed society, and women in particular, for his personal shortcomings, and decided to take revenge against society for making him a 'loser', by killing women ( who had rejected him ), instead of recognizing that he was a loser of his own making, his own decisions, and which could be corrected, is a symptom of this lack of personal responsibility issue.

The a*shole didn't even have the decency to off himself before the police got to him.

 

[Mad-Scientist]

The absurdity of terrorism continues to grow. Society isn't perfect but that shouldn't warrant senseless murder. We can wonder if society alienates people to become this way, is this prevalent as a new phenomenon or has it always been. Condolence to those affected

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Have we gone too far in absolving people from personal responsibility ?

I don't see how this guy is absolved of anything. I am pretty sure he will spend the rest of his life in prison. 

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Do we blame society for all of people's problems and not the personal choices they make in life ?

As you mentioned he was given the boot from the Armed Services. It seems he has been held accountable for his own inadequacies. His personal choices prevented him fro service, prevented him from having a mate, and have now likely led to life imprisonment. I don't see an angle here where society is at fault or has been blamed by any reasonable people. 

1 hour ago, MigL said:

The a*shole didn't even have the decency to off himself before the police got to him.

I believe a lifetime in prison is both a better deterrent and a greater punishment than one successfully going out in a blaze of self indulgent perversion. Plus he may potentially serve some use to psychology. 

[Moontanman]

35 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I don't see how this guy is absolved of anything. I am pretty sure he will spend the rest of his life in prison. 

As you mentioned he was given the boot from the Armed Services. It seems he has been held accountable for his own inadequacies. His personal choices prevented him fro service, prevented him from having a mate, and have now likely led to life imprisonment. I don't see an angle here where society is at fault or has been blamed by any reasonable people. 

I believe a lifetime in prison is both a better deterrent and a greater punishment than one successfully going out in a blaze of self indulgent perversion. Plus he may potentially serve some use to psychology. 

Life in prison? He may yet get a mate... 

[naitche]

I think identity politics encourages people to blame society for their short comings and discredits the power of personal responsibility, yes.

identity is the environment for all it contains, unified by 'self' belief. Usually based on past experience and self defined by rejection of what can't or won't accept that definition.

identity is limited by definition.

The  human identity is fractured by identity politics. It discredits the  belief in humanity needed to define what is humane.

[CharonY]

15 minutes ago, naitche said:

I think identity politics encourages people to blame society for their short comings and discredits the power of personal responsibility, yes.

identity is the environment for all it contains, unified by 'self' belief. Usually based on past experience and self defined by rejection of what can't or won't accept that definition.

identity is limited by definition.

The  human identity is fractured by identity politics. It discredits the  belief in humanity needed to define what is humane.

Yet when has politics not been about some form of identity? Traditional parties have been organized along social classes, religion, or other ideologies. Moreover, since time immemorial folks were not happy with society for a variety of reasons (justified or not) and in some cases it can result in violent actions (e.g.terrorism an/or revolutions). This is clearly not a new thing.

 

12 hours ago, MigL said:

Have we gone too far in absolving people from personal responsibility ? Do we blame society for all of people's problems and not the personal choices they make in life ?

I am not really sure what you mean. He will be lawfully punished as it should be. In fact, I would be rather shocked if would get away with it. But how else do you think he should be made accountable? Should he have been punished for his views before he did something? Should we e.g. punish misogyny even before actions have been taken? It is worrisome that groups form that amplify these destructive views rather than trying to better their situation. But do you mean to punish that? And if so, what about freedom of expression?

[naitche]

8 hours ago, CharonY said:

Yet when has politics not been about some form of identity? Traditional parties have been organized along social classes, religion, or other ideologies. Moreover, since time immemorial folks were not happy with society for a variety of reasons (justified or not) and in some cases it can result in violent actions (e.g.terrorism an/or revolutions). This is clearly not a new thing.

 

 

Not a new thing, no.  Nor violence as a result.

Not caused by cultural identity,  thats pretty harmless in itself. There is a kind of inevitability to it though  when  the cultural  of an identity encourages a sense of moral superiority or 'rightness of way' in opposition.

Hard to share the space of a common human environment , with an exclusive mentality.

Edited April 30, 2018 by naitche

[Ten oz]

8 hours ago, naitche said:

I think identity politics encourages people to blame society for their short comings and discredits the power of personal responsibility, yes.

identity is the environment for all it contains, unified by 'self' belief. Usually based on past experience and self defined by rejection of what can't or won't accept that definition.

identity is limited by definition.

The  human identity is fractured by identity politics. It discredits the  belief in humanity needed to define what is humane.

Humans have been the number one killers of other humans since record history. People have killed in the name of religion, race, nationalism, sex, anger, and etc, etc. I agree identity politics is bad but don't believe it is responsible for any sort of uptick in violence. If anything it is an uptick in anger and fustration that draws breeds identity politics. Here in Northern America suicide rates have been rising consistently for the last couple decades and the number of mental disorders diagnosed and prescribed is rising as well. Something corrosive seems to be going on within the psyche at large but I have yet to read any good theories as to what. It might have to do with the political environment or could possibly be something to do with our diets. 

 At least it doesn't appear errors which could have prevented this were made by public officials. No one shares any blame here. It was the act of a sick individual and from everything I have read Canadian authorities have responded appropriately. As such I don't think there are public policy changes which are required. 

[Prometheus]

7 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Humans have been the number one killers of other humans since record history.

Is that true? It's certainly not true now,  and my understanding is that death by infectious diseases dwarfs violent deaths throughout our history. 

[naitche]

Ten oz 

So far, I mostly agree.

It seems to me tho' that some of the anger and frustration is from a sense of being powerless at an individual level,  that identity politics fosters. 

Identity politics doesn't give the power of responsibility to individuals, or teach the meaning of personal responsibility. It does assign responsibility  to cultural identities, and discredit responsibility on a personal level.

The polarisation seems to be increasing  and it makes sense that the opposition felt will too.

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by naitche

[Ten oz]

14 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

Is that true? It's certainly not true now,  and my understanding is that death by infectious diseases dwarfs violent deaths throughout our history. 

No doubt. I wasn't being literal. 

12 minutes ago, naitche said:

Ten oz 

So far, I mostly agree.

It seems to me tho' that some of the anger and frustration is from a sense of being powerless at an individual level,  that identity politics fosters. 

Identity politics doesn't give the power of responsibility to individuals, or teach the meaning of personal responsibility. It does assign responsibility  to cultural identities, and discredit responsibility on a personal level.

The polarisation seems to be increasing  and it makes sense that the opposition felt will too.

 

Is there any indication that the murderer was motivated by politics? Seems to me he was motivated by sexual frustration and low self esteem. I imagine once in prison and properly diagnosed it will be found that he suffers from a mental disorder of some type. 

Among all people living in the world wouldn't you agree that Canadians are among the most powerful (control of their own lives) on the planet? Child labor, slavery, indentured servitude, and etc still exist. Around the world their are places where people have little control over who they marry, where they live, where they work, how they dress, who their leaders are, and etc. In 2018 the average Canadian has more individual freedom and rights than the majority of people who have ever lived. Yes, there is polarization in politics but nothing to the level we see elsewhere in the world that is leading to civil war, ethnic cleansing, or succession. Canada, or any other Western Democracy, is not perfect but from the outside (I live in the U.S.) looking in Canada seems to have more political choice than most. Here in the U.S. politics is binary. Canada is one of the few democracy the successfully maintains more than 2 political parties. People do have choice and there are options when it comes to political identity.  

[naitche]

30 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

 

Is there any indication that the murderer was motivated by politics? Seems to me he was motivated by sexual frustration and low self esteem. I imagine once in prison and properly diagnosed it will be found that he suffers from a mental disorder of some type. 

 Quite likely.

Motivation for his response could  be directed by 'Incel ', if he felt that group defined his identity and so his response. 

But the OP was general, not subjective.

30 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Among all people living in the world wouldn't you agree that Canadians are among the most powerful (control of their own lives) on the planet? Child labor, slavery, indentured servitude, and etc still exist. Around the world their are places where people have little control over who they marry, where they live, where they work, how they dress, who their leaders are, and etc. In 2018 the average Canadian has more individual freedom and rights than the majority of people who have ever lived. Yes, there is polarization in politics but nothing to the level we see elsewhere in the world that is leading to civil war, ethnic cleansing, or succession. Canada, or any other Western Democracy, is not perfect but from the outside (I live in the U.S.) looking in Canada seems to have more political choice than most. Here in the U.S. politics is binary. Canada is one of the few democracy the successfully maintains more than 2 political parties. People do have choice and there are options when it comes to political identity.  

 I was addressing generalities. 

 I was born and have lived in Canada. Yes, it has a lot going for it.  Not least a strong cultural focus on personal responsibility that I hope is not being diminished by the politics of cultural identities.

[MigL]

Not political at all, Ten oz, but a social issue nonetheless.

It is the fact that a whole group of people, so called incels, think they have the right to vilify the rest of society,, the Chads and Stacys, for their own shortcomings. They have been led to believe that their inability to form relationships is the fault of others and not their responsibility.

And this is not isolated to Canada. The patron saint of the incel  subculture is one Elliot Rodger, who stabbed and shot six people in California ( 2014).

Incels have praised Alek Minassian online, for his actions and compare him ( as he himself did in a Facebook post ) to E Rodger.

[Ten oz]

34 minutes ago, MigL said:

Not political at all, Ten oz, but a social issue nonetheless.

It is the fact that a whole group of people, so called incels, think they have the right to vilify the rest of society,, the Chads and Stacys, for their own shortcomings. They have been led to believe that their inability to form relationships is the fault of others and not their responsibility.

And this is not isolated to Canada. The patron saint of the incel  subculture is one Elliot Rodger, who stabbed and shot six people in California ( 2014).

Incels have praised Alek Minassian online, for his actions and compare him ( as he himself did in a Facebook post ) to E Rodger.

A lot of groups vilify others. I was in Philadelphia this past weekend attending an event and while walking back to my hotel I passed a group of religious protesters who shouted at me and my wife that I we were going to burn in internal damnation. It is what it is. I rather be told my soul is damned than censor religious speech. In my opinion it is individual inadequacies and or disorder that drives one to join organizations which create identities and vilify others. Remove Incel and I imagine their idiot members would find some other way to vent which would be equally as unproductive. In free societies where individuals have the right to organize and freely self promote their views there will always be groups like this. 

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

It is the fact that a whole group of people, so called incels, think they have the right to vilify the rest of society,, the Chads and Stacys, for their own shortcomings. They have been led to believe that their inability to form relationships is the fault of others and not their responsibility.

Well, unfortunately that is what people do. If folks who are in power or at least in the majority blame minorities for the state of affairs (as an example), it is no wonder that there will be fringe groups who do the same. I am pretty sure that you can find parallels in many violent radicalized groups where certain others are to blame for whatever state they are in. 

[naitche]

Aside from politics, the populations are becoming far more fractured. That can't continue with out coming apart eventually. Govt. I think is a reflection of that, not the cause.

What can rise to the top can only do so if conditions are favourable. 

I don't think censorship is the answer either, rather much less of it and better communication skills . Does Canada still have speech and debate competitions from elementary school with the expectation all students take part in the 1st round?

Are  our schools still teaching that 'survival of the fittest' drives  evolution? Because thats the wrong  message for any identity dependent on its environment. We have to work with what we've got, not beat it down to nothing.

Edited May 1, 2018 by naitche

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, naitche said:

Aside from politics, the populations are becoming far more fractured.

What is this based on? More than when? Since last year, 20, 50, 100, 200 years? Also fractured on what? It gets thrown around a lot, but from my personal experience it just seems that debates are just far more in the open and with larger participation (at least in part due to social media). In the olden times you just don't hang out with folks that you disagree with if you can. Now, everyone has to make their opinion known (as I just did).

[naitche]

Observation and a physics of Identity as a space, occupied by what it can accept.

For about the last 20 years.

Fractures on values.

Its less about adding value to the space of a common human identity by what and how you  can contribute personally, than it is now about discrediting value based on perceived alternate identities. 

Where its become acceptable to reject a persons value (and opinions) based on the idea they belong to an an alternate identity, and space is denied.

Rather than working with the environment  you have to improve its condition or volume, exercising responsibility,  A rejection and reduction of environment and what it will hold.

 

Edited May 5, 2018 by naitche

[naitche]

A space is  measured by its own definition or value, not by  value beyond its own.

A 'condition' has no value, in its own right.  Thats is in the response brought to it.

The more you define a condition, the more value (space) it looses .

It can't be both a space and a condition, with out losing  responsibility. The only response available over time becomes reduction.

(Entropy?)

Edited May 8, 2018 by naitche

[naitche]

The only way to measure the value of such an entity would be by what value can be discredited.

[naitche]

Or to 'fix' the identity, in time and place.  Or both.

(sorry, I can't find my edit)

The measures used to support identity politics are opositional.

Edited May 8, 2018 by naitche