Merged thread. Aspirin synthesis / GLACIAL ACETIC ACID? 2(2C²H³NaO²)(s)+Na²SO⁴(s)--> 2Na2(SO⁴)+ 2(2(CH³COOH)(ANHYDROUS)

[KiddGr0tesk]

Please excuse the appallingly incorrect chemical equation balancing it's three am (0300am) and I can't sleep... But I'm exhausted!!!!

 

Sodium acetate + sodium sulphate = glacial acetic acid right?

 

I just need to react both the anhydrous sodium acetate with the anhydrous sodium sulphate on a vacuum chamber right?.....while they're being agitated vigorously?  Is this correct?  If not pls enlighten.  The product s mells like pure acetic acid so far....

 

 

At won't point do I need to distill this, can I use fractional crystalizatin to get a pure acetic acid crystal in a hydrogen free enviorment (aka reactionary atmosphere)?  (,I'd use a nitrogen gas)

2 hours ago, KiddGr0tesk said:

Please excuse the appallingly incorrect chemical equation balancing it's three am (0300am) and I can't sleep... But I'm exhausted!!!!

 

Sodium acetate + sodium sulphate = glacial acetic acid right?

 

I just need to react both the anhydrous sodium acetate with the anhydrous sodium sulphate on a vacuum chamber right?.....while they're being agitated vigorously?  Is this correct?  If not pls enlighten.  The product s mells like pure acetic acid so far....

 

 

At won't point do I need to distill this, can I use fractional crystalizatin to get a pure acetic acid crystal in a hydrogen free enviorment (aka reactionary atmosphere)?  (,I'd use a nitrogen gas)

Need help making this for my class next Monday.  Will be having my students make glacial acetic acid to show them/teach them about nucleation sites!

[KiddGr0tesk]

Can I use this to make aspirin? Please check out my other glacial acetic acid post....

Edited May 1, 2018 by KiddGr0tesk
Because I forgot to add something important.

[hypervalent_iodine]

Perhaps try writing out the checmical formulae. When you do that, you might notice that the equation you’ve given isn’t possible. Are you familiar with the melting point of acetic acid? And what exactly does a hydrogen free atmosphere have to do with crystallisation? 

I highly recommend you discontinue home experiments until you have learnt basic chemistry. That is not meant as a slight against you, just a warning in light of the hazards inherent in doing chemistry. You can’t possibly know what to do if you have an accident, nor assess the risks involved in your work if you lack a fundamental knowledge.

I just noticed your title: you should try counting the atoms on each side. Do they balance? What is the chemical difference between the acetate salt and acetic acid? Also, it is unlikely you would get anhydrous product from a reaction done in water. 

I think it’s cool that you are teaching students about nucleation, but perhaps you could think of a different way, or find something that is prescribed and written out for you online. Related: one of my favourite things to do at an old job was to put bottles of water in the freezer for an hour, shake them up and watch it crystallise out. Have you looked at something like this? https://www.playdoughtoplato.com/kids-science-experiment-hot-ice/ It’s basically what I think you are trying to do. You can also pour the liquid into a flask or something similar, sprinkle in some solid sodium acetate and watch as the whole thing turns solid.

[hypervalent_iodine]

How do you propose that would occur?

[KiddGr0tesk]

1 hour ago, KiddGr0tesk said:

Well concentrated in sufficient quantity react the left over sodium acetate with the left over solute... Then allowing that to dry and bake the hydrate out to obtain sodium Acetate again.  Dissolve this into either choroform or ether add the sylicic acid and it should or could be coaxed to precipitate from solution?

I'm trying to avoid having the kids turn the GCA INTO acetic anhydride for aspirin. Bc ya know..... dear and all ... Propionic anhydride is a no no.

 

But I need help with suggestions of fractional crystalization tonoure acetic acid..  help?

Edited May 1, 2018 by KiddGr0tesk
Because I forgot to add something important.

[KiddGr0tesk]

Hydrogen free so ethwnoic acid doesn't recarboxylate with the moisture in the air into plan useless aqueous acetic acid.

 

I have many degrees I'm justvexhausted. Yes this is an impossible ewuatio.beofre you critizose so..... Rudley you should take some social etiquette classes. They'd do you wonders.  Or are you just on the autism spectrum and are a troll?  Mind your own business and let THEM REAL help come in.  Once I'm ABLE to sleep I of course could do this no problem but I can't sleep and haven't for six days. Symptoms of meds that are non of your damn business but I am terminal stage 1.  So please kindly fly f off and go bother someone else and don't be so useless.

 

No I do not want hot-ice ok I  need a pure enough product to use to acteylize salicyclic acid.  I don't even know what 'hot ice' is but saw a lot of videos about It pop up...m what is it?

Sorry I freaked out..... I'm on high dose fentanyl and it makes me irritable I'm sorry it's the pain

Edited May 1, 2018 by KiddGr0tesk
Forgot hotnice

[hypervalent_iodine]

If it could be done, I’m sure that’s how it would be done. Without checking, I would say acetic acid is easier and cheaper. The reaction occurs through the phenolic oxygen of salicylic acid, kicking out acetate as a leaving group when reacted with the anhydride. The equivalent reaction with acetic acid would not work very well, as hydroxides are poor leaving groups on their own. You need to activate them in some way. You can use acidic conditions, but I do not believe the equilibrium favours the reaction at all. It would be slow and low yielding. This is why acetic anhydride (not propionic anhydride - this is a different chemical) is used.

The other chemicals involved in making aspirin also pose risk. As I mention in your other thread, it is not a good idea to be doing synthetic chemistry if you don’t know synthetic chemistry. As you are not only planning to do this for yourself, but instruct students, I really must reiterate that you should not be doing this. It is not safe for you to be doing it, let alone for you to be leading a group of kids (how old are they?) when you lack the knowledge and experience to do so. 

[KiddGr0tesk]

Hi please go read my other reply

 

 

Also why do u think I'm reacting these in water?  I'm using anhydrous media here...   So not sure where u got the water I suggested HCl 14%+not water. Or ether or better yet chloroform with proper masks which we have.   We made chloroform last month with sodium hypochlorite and acetone no problems there.

Yes pls merge . Once AGAIN I'm sorry it's this lack of sleep is really getting to me. I have 14% mixed with something else.  I'll ask my colleague I can't remember at the moment.  I just need to know.  Sodium acetate + sodium sulfate =?

Edited May 1, 2018 by KiddGr0tesk
Need to add tech info

[hypervalent_iodine]

Your first sentence a few posts up does not make any sense. Recarboxylate what? You haven’t decarboxylated anything? And what would hydrogen have to do with that anyway?

I’m sorry you feel I was useless and that you are in pain, but your OP contained many errors and demonstrated a lack of chemical knowledge. I advised you the same way I would advise anyone who clearly doesn’t know what they’re doing when it comes to synthetic chemistry: don’t do it. I am not pointing it out to upset, annoy, or troll. It is simply out of concern for your safety.

I did point you to some useful resources that might help - did you look at those? If you read it, you would see hot ice is sodium acetate, one of the things in your initial (incorrect) reaction equation. I pointed it out to you because you mentioned wanting to teach your students about nucleation. The hot ice tower is a great visual demonstration of that. Speaking of your equation, have you identified what is wrong with it and why is isn’t correct?

Why are you trying to crystallise out acetic acid? It’s melting point is about 16oC. It’s a liquid at room temperature. What is the problem with just distilling it? Moreover, why are you trying to make it when it’s cheap enough to just buy and purify? I have added to your other thread about the issues with your synthetic route. It won’t work. 

[hypervalent_iodine]

 

You’re  mixing threads up. In your other one your reaction is with two solid salts. They won’t react like that, so they need to be in solution. What do you think the other 86% is in 14% HCl? Do you expect your salts will dissolve in the other solvents you mentioned? I wouldn’t. I didn’t see that HCl mentioned at all in your other thread, anyway. Perhaps I should merge your two threads so we can stop confusion?

Equals nothing. Please read through my posts in the other thread, I have tried to point you in the direction that would tell you where you are going wrong. And once again, please don’t do reactions when you don’t know what you are doing. Even if you do, don’t do it on no sleep!