USA pulling out of Iran deal

[StringJunky]

20 minutes ago, Endy0816 said:

I hate to say it, but I'm kind of hoping rest of the world starts bucking our sanctions.

#MeToo   

[Raider5678]

On 5/8/2018 at 4:20 PM, Ten oz said:

This hurts our (USA) credibility. Regimes will be more hesitant the make any concessions in the future due to our inner Political divisiveness rendering us undependable. 

Undependable?

I mean, the regime would have to be pretty stupid not to realize that different presidents will do different things.

3 hours ago, Endy0816 said:

I hate to say it, but I'm kind of hoping rest of the world starts bucking our sanctions.

Like North Korea?

Syria?

Edited May 10, 2018 by Raider5678

[CharonY]

2 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Undependable?

I mean, the regime would have to be pretty stupid not to realize that different presidents will do different things.

That precisely would make it undependable. Essentially what you are saying is that no one should agree to conditions with the US that go beyond 4 years as the next administration may just throw things out of the window, even if all conditions of the original negotiations are met. That would severely harm any long-term strategies the US may have. 

[Raider5678]

9 minutes ago, CharonY said:

That precisely would make it undependable. Essentially what you are saying is that no one should agree to conditions with the US that go beyond 4 years as the next administration may just throw things out of the window, even if all conditions of the original negotiations are met. That would severely harm any long-term strategies the US may have. 

 

A single deal is not going to ruin the entire USA's reputation for making deals with everyone.

 

Additionally, Iran isn't following the conditions anyways.

https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/iran-already-cheating-nuclear-deal

They're making hundreds of billions from oil sales, as a direct result of lifting the sanctions. So they're receiving the money, but they're not playing along with the rules of the game, which is a major reason Trump has said he's pulling out of the deal. Not just because Obama has made the deal.

 

What is the point of the deal if Iran isn't following it? If you can give me a compelling reason why then please do. But at the moment I don't understand why we should stay in the deal.

[StringJunky]

9 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

A single deal is not going to ruin the entire USA's reputation for making deals with everyone.

 

Additionally, Iran isn't following the conditions anyways.

https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/iran-already-cheating-nuclear-deal

They're making hundreds of billions from oil sales, as a direct result of lifting the sanctions. So they're receiving the money, but they're not playing along with the rules of the game, which is a major reason Trump has said he's pulling out of the deal. Not just because Obama has made the deal.

 

What is the point of the deal if Iran isn't following it? If you can give me a compelling reason why then please do. But at the moment I don't understand why we should stay in the deal.

That link is from 2014. Stop being a Republican fanboy and open your eyes.

[Raider5678]

16 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

That link is from 2014. Stop being a Republican fanboy and open your eyes.

And the deal was signed in 2013. Why do you not care if they were already cheating in 2014? What case are you trying to make by saying that?

What in the world makes you think we should disregard the fact they were bypassing the deal, just because it was in 2014?

 

You should stop being a Democrat fanboy and open your eyes. (or better yet, don't make false assertions about who's a fanboy to who) 

For the record, I despise the Republicans.

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Raider5678

[CharonY]

6 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

That link is from 2014. Stop being a Republican fanboy and open your eyes.

On top of it he is conveniently forgetting all the other agreements the US is pulling out of and the fact that allies have already stated that they cannot rely on the US anymore, which is a huge deal.

 

9 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

And the deal was signed in 2013. Why do you not care if they were already cheating in 2014? What case are you trying to make by saying that?

What in the world makes you think we should disregard the fact they were bypassing the deal, just because it was in 2014?

You really need to improve your reading and perhaps a basic understanding of the context of the texts you pull. The JCPA was reached in July 2015. Your own link (which you apparently did not read) just describes the clandestine efforts Iran has made to circumvent sanctions.  The JCPA specially addresses these issues and pretty much everyone (except the US, Israel and Saudi Arabia) have declared that they are abiding to the conditions. My guess is that you just googled the Joint Plan of Action which was an interim agreement but is not the one under discussion. Also note that pretty much everyone already suspected that Iran was developing capabilities- after all, this was the main reason for the sanctions and negotiations in the first place.

[Endy0816]

3 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

Undependable?

I mean, the regime would have to be pretty stupid not to realize that different presidents will do different things.

Like North Korea?

Syria?

Talking about the other first world countries our president is trying to bully for sticking with an agreement.

Not a huge fan of foreign involvement in general though. Hard to get right, easy to mess up.

Countries have options to shift trade from the US and to otherwise fight or even impose counter sanctions.

[CharonY]

7 hours ago, Endy0816 said:

Countries have options to shift trade from the US and to otherwise fight or even impose counter sanctions.

Interestingly, the head of the Iranian-German chamber of commerce stated that they were preparing for that move for a while and had cut off US suppliers and staff.

[zapatos]

waitforufo seems to be channeling through one of our members...

[StringJunky]

11 hours ago, CharonY said:

On top of it he is conveniently forgetting all the other agreements the US is pulling out of and the fact that allies have already stated that they cannot rely on the US anymore, which is a huge deal.

Yes, there is no 'I' in team. I think this highlights that he is not a team player and he has always played the solo dog-eat-dog game.

Edited May 10, 2018 by StringJunky

[CharonY]

11 hours ago, CharonY said:

My guess is that you just googled the Joint Plan of Action which was an interim agreement but is not the one under discussion.

Actually, I'd like to revise my guess. My assumption now is the googled term was "Iran agreement cheating" or something to that effect. This is precisely what I have been critical about (as I see it increasingly with the students nowadays). The tendency of using "first hit that kinda seems to state what I am thinking" together with a lack of effort to understand, contextualize and critically evaluate these kind of hits, provides folks with the feeling that they understand something. Even worse, because they do feel like that, they become more resilient to actually changing their minds and learn the actual context. It sometimes feels like you have to actively make them unlearn things, before you can teach them.

 

[StringJunky]

5 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Actually, I'd like to revise my guess. My assumption now is the googled term was "Iran agreement cheating" or something to that effect. This is precisely what I have been critical about (as I see it increasingly with the students nowadays). The tendency of using "first hit that kinda seems to state what I am thinking" together with a lack of effort to understand, contextualize and critically evaluate these kind of hits, provides folks with the feeling that they understand something. Even worse, because they do feel like that, they become more resilient to actually changing their minds and learn the actual context. It sometimes feels like you have to actively make them unlearn things, before you can teach them.

 

Yes, once one is committed to a strand of thought one tends to only look for stuff that supports it. 

[CharonY]

1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

Yes, once one is committed to a strand of thought one tends to only look for stuff that supports it. 

Rather unfortunately the vast amount of information, coupled with an equal amount of misinformation makes it rather easy to be misled, even if one is not entirely locked in. The trouble is that few make the effort to try to understand the available info. Of course, it used to be the case that in former times one would rely on experts, but that is now systematically eroded.

[StringJunky]

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

Rather unfortunately the vast amount of information, coupled with an equal amount of misinformation makes it rather easy to be misled, even if one is not entirely locked in. The trouble is that few make the effort to try to understand the available info. Of course, it used to be the case that in former times one would rely on experts, but that is now systematically eroded.

That's what I like here about discussing this kind of stuff: many people by virtue of their interest in science are acutely aware of what might look like misleading information and the need for critical thinking.

[CharonY]

1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

That's what I like here about discussing this kind of stuff: many people by virtue of their interest in science are acutely aware of what might look like misleading information and the need for critical thinking.

Can you imagine how hard it is to teach social sciences under that climate? 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

waitforufo seems to be channeling through one of our members...

I wish. We need more differing views to reduce the echoes in our chamber

[StringJunky]

11 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Can you imagine how hard it is to teach social sciences under that climate? 

It must be hard to be a millennial. The advantage with being older and pre-internet is one can see better through the chaff.

[dimreepr]

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

I wish. We need more differing views to reduce the echoes in our chamber

Indeed.

[CharonY]

2 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

It must be hard to be a millennial. The advantage with being older and pre-internet is one can see better through the chaff.

It is. The whole thing went into a completely different direction than I thought it would, when I was younger. I assumed that the next generation would be more savvy technology-wise and be much better in finding and organizing information, since we had much more limited access. As it turned out there seems to be just too much, and it is getting harder to separate signal from noise. Some countries try to implement media awareness in schools. But I guess it will take at least another decade to see whether it will change anything. 

[Ten oz]

18 minutes ago, iNow said:

I wish. We need more differing views to reduce the echoes in our chamber

Differing options are useful for a well rounded perspective but fraudulent facts are not.  

[StringJunky]

8 minutes ago, CharonY said:

It is. The whole thing went into a completely different direction than I thought it would, when I was younger. I assumed that the next generation would be more savvy technology-wise and be much better in finding and organizing information, since we had much more limited access. As it turned out there seems to be just too much, and it is getting harder to separate signal from noise. Some countries try to implement media awareness in schools. But I guess it will take at least another decade to see whether it will change anything. 

There have been articles this side discussing what could be generally summarized as 'Fake News' and how it might be dealt with with regards to teaching schoolchildren. 

Yes, there's going to be a long learning curve for the first internet generation to get to grips with it to teach future generations. This is their world really, not ours, because we are not fully immersed in it.

[iNow]

26 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

fraudulent facts are not.  

I enjoy the opportunity they provide for target practice, though

[Phi for All]

4 hours ago, CharonY said:

Some countries try to implement media awareness in schools. But I guess it will take at least another decade to see whether it will change anything. 

I'd like to see this as its own discussion. I'm appalled that some of the same things I bitched about when I went to high school still aren't being addressed. In my state, no part of the curriculum is aimed at practical application, so most kids graduate with the math skills to balance their checkbooks, but have never been taught to actually balance their checkbooks. Schools don't teach the best ways to find an apartment, or write an ad for a roommate, or even how to look for a better job while doing your best and maintaining a good relationship at your current job. 

We're fixated on the symptoms of a lack of media awareness, like cyberbullying, while we leave the root cause alone. News is entertainment now, not information, so it just has to interest you rather than inform you.

[Ten oz]

39 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I'd like to see this as its own discussion.

I attempted to start a thread addressing this but missed the mark some. https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/113509-internet-trolls/

41 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I'm appalled that some of the same things I bitched about when I went to high school still aren't being addressed. In my state, no part of the curriculum is aimed at practical application, so most kids graduate with the math skills to balance their checkbooks, but have never been taught to actually balance their checkbooks. Schools don't teach the best ways to find an apartment, or write an ad for a roommate, or even how to look for a better job while doing your best and maintaining a good relationship at your current job. 

My wife and I were discussing something similar to this just the other day. I was complaining about High School students are not being taught how interest on loans work yet are often pressured to borrow money to continue their education. She (my wife) laughed that proper education on such would cost banks too much. She had a good point. Ignorance prompts of numerous industries from religion to financial markets. Schools don't improve because lobbyists don't want them to.