Hijack from A Hypothetical Explanation of the Existence of Gravity

[Physics of Gravity]

AustinL

Good Work.  Thank You for sharing your hypothesis.   All Scientific findings first start with an Idea.  They do not become theories without first testing and rigorously attempting to prove the ideas wrong.  I do not know where to start with your idea but will look at your  thought experiment specifically focusing on a push verse pull concept of gravity to silence the critics on the thread.    Great Minds should be encouraged... never suppressed. 

Lets first accept that the theory of relativity  (and relative gravity) contains one of the most profound ideas in all of human scientific discovery...  The affect of velocity and gravity on Time(Time Dilation)...  None have come close to explaining how this works nor why it happens at a quantum scale.   At first look, this is an absolutely absurd idea, contrary to reasonable physics and scientific evaluation but no one has been successful at disproving it.   In fact,  the software operating our GPS systems was adjusted to account for time dilation in order to work properly.  Relativity is now an accepted model by most every modern physicist.   So I for one thank you for your contribution to the discussion of what causes gravity.   The most recent work of the late Stephen Hawking acknowledges the need for robust effort on solving our understanding of gravity. 

1)  To support your idea...  in this reply...  I will focus solely on how your concept gravity is a pushing verses pulling force.. can potentially fit into the standard model.   

"First refresh and reflect on the recent discovery in CERN; and the acknowledgment that all matter is made of quantum fields not particles(HIGGS).   One way gravity would easily be argued to be a pushing  force is the evaluation of the fact that matter is mostly empty space between these fields..  electron fields, up quark fields, down quark fields , etc.."   

2) In your thought experiment let us imagine that these "fields" are arranged with greater symmetry than that which exists in the matter they make up.   

3) Elaborating further, assume the fields require greater volume and/or are distorted when converted to matter, similar to water expanding becoming a solid.  Greater > space. 

4)  Expansion within quantum fields is a continuous distortion of space (Space Expands) therefore creating equal opposite force on all matter... pushing back on matter... "not pulling."  

5) In this thought experiment,  the force gravity is the result of the expansion of quantum fields. 

6) In this thought experiment, all matter everywhere in the universe, is made up of the same quantum fields.

7) In this thought experiment, the gravity created can become so strong (around a sun)  it can even alter the wave of a photon. 

8) In this thought experiment, Black Holes recycle matter, and convert it back into "Quantum Fields" a.k.a. Hawking radiation.  

I will do some research to offer some critical response to some of your other thoughts.  Discussion is Progress.  I support your attempts to explain what we do not yet understand.  

Sincere Thanks, 

Richard 

 

[Silvestru]

18 minutes ago, Physics of Gravity said:

2) In your thought experiment let us imagine that these "fields" are arranged with greater symmetry than that which exists in the matter they make up.   

3) Elaborating further, assume the fields require greater volume and/or are distorted when converted to matter, similar to water expanding becoming a solid.  Greater > space. 

4)  Expansion within quantum fields is a continuous distortion of space (Space Expands) therefore creating equal opposite force on all matter... pushing back on matter... "not pulling."  

5) In this thought experiment,  the force gravity is the result of the expansion of quantum fields. 

The particle fields exist prior to the particles and permeates all of space time. What do you mean by the fields require greater volume? And what do you mean the fields are converted to matter? That's not how fields work. 

[Sensei]

17 minutes ago, Physics of Gravity said:

All Scientific findings first start with an Idea. 

The all scientific findings first start with observation of phenomena.. except some really sophisticated things like prediction of antimatter by Dirac (but still he made mistake thinking it'll have negative mass)..

[Silvestru]

The Universe is expanding. Not the fields.

[Physics of Gravity]

Quantum Fields in their "non-Matter" state are actually "more dense" and do not take up as much space.   

Converted is the wrong word..  Vibrations within the fields create what we perceive to be matter.  

All matter is energy..  

The classical model describes the "universe" as expanding..   

The galaxies are traveling in  their own vectors...

However, the space between them is also "Expanding"  

My comments above are not intended to offer an explanation for the the expansion of space between galaxies.  

I am speaking of expansion of quantum space.  

Matter begins in stars. 

Quantum Fields begin in Black Holes. 

   

    

Gravity is created in the instance matter is created.  Space Warped around it.  One atom at a time. 

Gravity is destroyed in the instance Quantum Fields are created.    One quanta at a time. 

[Strange]

51 minutes ago, Physics of Gravity said:

Quantum Fields in their "non-Matter" state are actually "more dense" and do not take up as much space.

What does it mean for a field to be in a "non-matter state"?

How are you defining the "density" of a field?

How can a field take less space when a field, bu definition, fills all of space?

52 minutes ago, Physics of Gravity said:

I am speaking of expansion of quantum space. 

What is "quantum space"?

What evidence is there that it is expanding?

53 minutes ago, Physics of Gravity said:

Matter begins in stars. 

Really? What existed before starts (that are stars made from)? 

53 minutes ago, Physics of Gravity said:

Quantum Fields begin in Black Holes. 

Citation needed.

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

Anything posted to support or rebut the OP needs to be mainstream physics. It is not appropriate to introduce more speculation in support of a speculations topic.

 

[Physics of Gravity]

I know I will be banned for saying this but here goes...

With all due respect Swansont but if you can not openly discuss and speculate in a forum where members are permitted to rip apart the ideas of those who come to speculate, you should eliminate this concept and  delete a speculative thread entirely.   Its not mainstream physics but if mainstream physics requires authentication from speculators,  you should listen to and encourage fresh ideas... no matter how poorly they are communicated or absurd they sound...  Time Dilation??  

The topic of Gravity requires much more discussion to understand it.. 

 

[Silvestru]

1 hour ago, Physics of Gravity said:

Gravity is created in the instance matter is created.  Space Warped around it.  One atom at a time. 

Gravity is destroyed in the instance Quantum Fields are created.    One quanta at a time. 

Sounds like the intro to a cheap sci-fi. Also it's BS.

1 minute ago, Physics of Gravity said:

if you can not openly discuss and speculate in a forum where members are permitted to rip apart the ideas of those who come to speculate,

The problem is you are high-jacking a speculative thread that is not yours. And you are adding your own different speculation. 

It's very difficult to follow.

Also it's a waste of time if we discuss your speculation if it's not based on anything. People asked you many times for clarification or a citation for the things you say.

This is not the "trust me" forum.

[Strange]

3 minutes ago, Physics of Gravity said:

I know I will be banned for saying this but here goes...

I don't think anyone has been banned for criticising the rules (although hijacking another thread to do it isn't so cool).

4 minutes ago, Physics of Gravity said:

With all due respect Swansont but if you can not openly discuss and speculate in a forum where members are permitted to rip apart the ideas of those who come to speculate, you should eliminate this concept and  delete a speculative thread entirely.   Its not mainstream physics but if mainstream physics requires authentication from speculators,  you should listen to and encourage fresh ideas... no matter how poorly they are communicated or absurd they sound... 

With all due respect, you should have read the rules when you joined.

[Silvestru]

1 hour ago, Physics of Gravity said:

Matter begins in stars. 

Quantum Fields begin in Black Holes. 

These assertions for example. What are stars made out of if matter begins in them? 

Why do you associate quantum fields with Hawking Radiation (as I assume that's what you mean)

[Physics of Gravity]

Strange,

I do appreciate constructive critics very much..

But I do not have the time to respond.  

If I am not banned from this site for expressing myself, I will return  to you. 

Have a great day!!

[Silvestru]

2 hours ago, Physics of Gravity said:

In this thought experiment, Black Holes recycle matter, and convert it back into "Quantum Fields" a.k.a. Hawking radiation.  

Hawking Radiation is not "Quantum Fields"

[Strange]

7 minutes ago, Physics of Gravity said:

If I am not banned from this site for expressing myself, I will return  to you. 

No one has been banned for expressing themselves.

No one has been banned for posting their random opinions, even when in the wrong forum.

No one has been banned for criticising the rules.

No one has been banned for saying "I'll be banned for this"

Must try harder.

8 minutes ago, Physics of Gravity said:

I do appreciate constructive critics very much.

I haven't criticised, just asked some questions.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Strange

[Physics of Gravity]

A common problem with physicists is their education erodes their natural ability to imagine solutions..  Empirical evidence is not manifested before an accurate solution is revealed.   Solutions must be proven true.   If you already have the proof,  you wouldn't need a solution. 

 

 

[StringJunky]

2 minutes ago, Physics of Gravity said:

A common problem with physicists is their education erodes their natural ability to imagine solutions..  Empirical evidence is not manifested before an accurate solution is revealed.   Solutions must be proven true.   If you already have the proof,  you wouldn't need a solution. 

 

 

Imagination is worthless without data to build it with.

[Strange]

10 minutes ago, Physics of Gravity said:

A common problem with physicists is their education erodes their natural ability to imagine solutions..

Nonsense. But their education does allow them to quickly rule out the 99% of ideas that don't work.

10 minutes ago, Physics of Gravity said:

Empirical evidence is not manifested before an accurate solution is revealed. 

Sometimes it is. Sometimes experimental physics precedes theory and sometimes it is the other way round.

11 minutes ago, Physics of Gravity said:

Solutions must be proven true.

Science doesn't really "prove" things and doesn't deal in "truth".

You have time to post this nonsense but not to answer a few questions on your ideas?

[swansont]

2 hours ago, Physics of Gravity said:

I know I will be banned for saying this but here goes...

With all due respect Swansont but if you can not openly discuss and speculate in a forum where members are permitted to rip apart the ideas of those who come to speculate, you should eliminate this concept and  delete a speculative thread entirely.   Its not mainstream physics but if mainstream physics requires authentication from speculators,  you should listen to and encourage fresh ideas... no matter how poorly they are communicated or absurd they sound...  Time Dilation??  

The topic of Gravity requires much more discussion to understand it.. 

 

!

Moderator Note

With all due respect, if you want to go start up your own discussion board you are free to run it as you like, but while we are here on this one, you will be asked to follow the rules and I will do my part in enforcing them. 

Our experience is that if you are allowed to answer speculation with further speculation, you quickly arrive at a point that contains no science at all. No testing, and nothing resembling a model. You can do that in your dorm room at 2 AM with an alcohol assist (or other chemicals of your choice, if so inclined) to your heart's content as far as I'm concerned, but not here. This is a science discussion board, not a WAG discussion board.

Have a nice day.

 

2 hours ago, Physics of Gravity said:

A common problem with physicists is their education erodes their natural ability to imagine solutions..  Empirical evidence is not manifested before an accurate solution is revealed.   Solutions must be proven true.   If you already have the proof,  you wouldn't need a solution. 

A common problem with internet hacks is that they stop discussing the technical substance of their thesis (which invariably withers under scrutiny) and they start expounding on what's wrong with physics and physicists.

5 hours ago, Physics of Gravity said:

 Lets first accept that the theory of relativity  (and relative gravity) contains one of the most profound ideas in all of human scientific discovery...  The affect of velocity and gravity on Time(Time Dilation)...  None have come close to explaining how this works nor why it happens at a quantum scale.  

This is pretty spectacularly wrong. We know why motion-based time dilation exists. It's a consequence of c being invariant and the laws of physics working in all inertial frames. Gravitational time dilation is a bit more involved, but the principles are laid out as well. Once you accept the premises on which relativity is based, time dilation is not particularly surprising.

[Phi for All]

6 hours ago, Physics of Gravity said:

A common problem with physicists is their education erodes their natural ability to imagine solutions.

A common problem with those who don't like structured study is their tendency to misunderstand how imagination works. In children who aren't educated, imagination is mostly wishful thinking and fantasy. In adults who have experience, imagination is better grounded and thus more effective. Critical thinking is the best channel for imagination there is, and critical thought is hardly natural. It must be learned through structured study.

[beecee]

13 hours ago, Physics of Gravity said:

A common problem with physicists is their education erodes their natural ability to imagine solutions..  Empirical evidence is not manifested before an accurate solution is revealed.   Solutions must be proven true.   If you already have the proof,  you wouldn't need a solution. 

Oh crap! Scientists "imagine"  solutions and answers every day: They then research observational and experimental evidence to support their hypothetical. They then publish or share their knowledge with their peers, always ready to accept valid criticism and/or advice. All scientific theories have needed to "run the gauntlet" so to speak. eg: DM. 

The scientific method has shown itself to be the supreme vehicle for mankind to obtaining knowledge and understanding how the universe works. Two flaws in your posts that tell me you need to go back to square one are your insistence of proof with regards to science...No scientific theory is ever proven and is always open for modification, addition or scrapping. Scientific theories  do though become more certain over time, as they continue to align with continuing observations, supported by experiments and continue making successful predictions. eg: GR and gravitational waves. Your second flaw is to keep  repeating that you will be banned. Your hypotheticals will always be challenged, and you will be asked for evidence to support those hypotheticals. If you cannot come up with legitimate support for your hypotheticals, and if you continue to ignore evidence supporting the accepted incumbent models, you most certainly will be made aware of that just as you should be. 

One could say if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.