smokequitterv2 Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 Can you make that answer a bit into non English speaking user friendly ? Are you telling me that , i have not payed enough attention to the whole thread ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 1 minute ago, smokequitterv2 said: Can you make that answer a bit into non English speaking user friendly ? 5 I'm sorry, perhaps the following will help, you are wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 On 5/11/2018 at 1:50 AM, Vril said: Start at the beginning I say, what is science? 2 hours ago, Vril said: Einstein and relativity does tell us that is not true! What if common sense tells us that it is true ? What if Einstein had some things wrong? Einstein is just one opinion that got agreed with and then taught to the world. What if some of these teachings were wrong? I do not want to really engage in a debate about who is right or wrong, but common sense ''says'' to me that things do happen all at once . In example, it is now on Earth and it is now on the Moon, although the observer may measure time differently , now is always now . Different events are in my opinion just actions in different geometrical positions happening now . A delay in seeing the event is not the same thing as time dividing events. It is the space and distance that divides the events, time divides the synchronous of seeing events. Would you disagree with my opinion? ! Moderator Note OK, so you asked what science is to make it seem like you wanted to discuss this, but then you switched over to telling us what you think science is, which is speculative in nature, and doesn't belong in our mainstream sections anymore. I'm going to move this where you can defend your extraordinary claims, hopefully with more than just your incredulity. Please use evidence to support your claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vril Posted May 12, 2018 Author Share Posted May 12, 2018 21 minutes ago, Phi for All said: ! Moderator Note OK, so you asked what science is to make it seem like you wanted to discuss this, but then you switched over to telling us what you think science is, which is speculative in nature, and doesn't belong in our mainstream sections anymore. I'm going to move this where you can defend your extraordinary claims, hopefully with more than just your incredulity. Please use evidence to support your claims. I accept your challenge on defending that which I said. The supposed centre of the Universe is the exact same age as the ''outer'' Universe, expanding since the big bang. Space divides the supposed centre and ''outer'' of the observable Universe. Time is not a thing between masses, space that is occupied by electromagnetic radiation is between masses. Would anyone disagree with that honesty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 20 hours ago, Vril said: Ain't going nowhere , that was the only question I had thanks. I thought space is what divides events, I must of not understood class. Space and time separates events. They are (in GR, anyway) points in space-time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 10 minutes ago, Vril said: I accept your challenge on defending that which I said. The supposed centre of the Universe is the exact same age as the ''outer'' Universe, expanding since the big bang. Space divides the supposed centre and ''outer'' of the observable Universe. Time is not a thing between masses, space that is occupied by electromagnetic radiation is between masses. Would anyone disagree with that honesty? 4 Yep... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 10 minutes ago, Vril said: I accept your challenge on defending that which I said. The supposed centre of the Universe is the exact same age as the ''outer'' Universe, expanding since the big bang. Space divides the supposed centre and ''outer'' of the observable Universe. Time is not a thing between masses, space that is occupied by electromagnetic radiation is between masses. Would anyone disagree with that honesty? I would. There is no centre to the universe. And I don't know what you mean by the "outer" universe. Also, none of this defends your claim that Einstein was wrong. Or that Einstein's theory is an "opinion". Or that there is a "universal now". All of which are wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vril Posted May 12, 2018 Author Share Posted May 12, 2018 37 minutes ago, Strange said: I would. There is no centre to the universe. And I don't know what you mean by the "outer" universe. Also, none of this defends your claim that Einstein was wrong. Or that Einstein's theory is an "opinion". Or that there is a "universal now". All of which are wrong. I do not believe I ever said Einstein was wrong , I did state Einsteins opinion, that which it is. You claim there is no universal now, you have proof of this or is this just speculation by yourself? 42 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Yep... Reasons? Supporting evidence contrary ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, Vril said: I did state Einsteins opinion, that which it is. Nonsense. It isn't opinion. It is well tested theory. 2 minutes ago, Vril said: You claim there is no universal now, you have proof of this or is this just speculation by yourself? This is part of Einstein's theory and, therefore, is supposed by multiple experiments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vril Posted May 12, 2018 Author Share Posted May 12, 2018 19 minutes ago, Strange said: Nonsense. It isn't opinion. It is well tested theory. This is part of Einstein's theory and, therefore, is supposed by multiple experiments. How can any experiment prove or show there is no Universal now? Please name one experiment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Vril said: How can any experiment prove or show there is no Universal now? There is no absolute time or space. You need an introduction to SR and (apparently) how science works. I'm not going to waste my time on that (and it would be off topic in this thread). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_special_relativity Edited May 12, 2018 by Strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity_Boy Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 19 hours ago, iNow said: Science is a method of exploring the universe in a manner that minimizes the influence of our own biases. Hey iNow! I like your answer best of all of these. Mainly because it's not just a boring dictionary paste up or memorization. And two, cuz it admits that science and more accurately scientists are usually biased to some degree. Thus, the best science is done with the least degree of bias, assumptions, or personal agenda. Every scientist, since he is a flawed human being, is best with emotions, likes, dislikes, as well as a real....if perhaps covert or subconscious.... preference in his mind how he WANTS the experiment or observation to turn out. Thus....the best of them recognize this and don't let it affect their work. Again...great answer! Thanks. I might use it in the future, giving you full credit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Velocity_Boy said: I like your answer best of all of these. I agree, that is a good summary. Quote Thus....the best of them recognize this and don't let it affect their work. The important point is the methods used to eliminate biases. That is where good experimental design comes in. I heard a great example some time ago from stroke research - unfortunately, I can't remember the details but the key bit was along the lines: "we knew this couldn't possibly have any effect but knew we should include a test to eliminate it anyway." To their surprise this "impossible" effect turned out to be crucial and resulted in improved stroke treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity_Boy Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 36 minutes ago, Vril said: I do not believe I ever said Einstein was wrong , I did state Einsteins opinion, that which it is. You claim there is no universal now, you have proof of this or is this just speculation by yourself? Reasons? Supporting evidence contrary ? But you did...and rather smugly, I felt....say that Einstein's opus of work and thus his Laws and Theories were merely one guy's opinion. And that for whatever reason, science just decided to jump on his bandwagon. This claim hints that much if not all of science is on a tenuous and maybe even biased...or just plain wrong...footing. Reasons that also explain why what you think about the nature of the universe and its center and outer edges are wrong can be found by anyone with moderate Google skills in about five minutes. Take it from a relative newcomer here, as well as one of the less-hard science savvy guys on this forum...you ain't gonna get far or learn much from these people by strolling in with a chip on your shoulder and immediately denigrating past science greats. Like another member suggested, it's prolly best for all if you just say from the gitgo what you don't like about the current state of science. Or where you think current theories are wrong. Then let them retort and explain. Then digest their answers and try to disprove if you can. And just tell us how you debunked them. That right there is pretty much science. Cheers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vril Posted May 12, 2018 Author Share Posted May 12, 2018 2 hours ago, Velocity_Boy said: But you did...and rather smugly, I felt....say that Einstein's opus of work and thus his Laws and Theories were merely one guy's opinion. And that for whatever reason, science just decided to jump on his bandwagon. This claim hints that much if not all of science is on a tenuous and maybe even biased...or just plain wrong...footing. Reasons that also explain why what you think about the nature of the universe and its center and outer edges are wrong can be found by anyone with moderate Google skills in about five minutes. Take it from a relative newcomer here, as well as one of the less-hard science savvy guys on this forum...you ain't gonna get far or learn much from these people by strolling in with a chip on your shoulder and immediately denigrating past science greats. Like another member suggested, it's prolly best for all if you just say from the gitgo what you don't like about the current state of science. Or where you think current theories are wrong. Then let them retort and explain. Then digest their answers and try to disprove if you can. And just tell us how you debunked them. That right there is pretty much science. Cheers. That is your opinion . 3 hours ago, Strange said: There is no absolute time or space. You need an introduction to SR and (apparently) how science works. I'm not going to waste my time on that (and it would be off topic in this thread). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_special_relativity Quite obvious you do not understand what you were taught. Space-time occupies space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity_Boy Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 10 minutes ago, Vril said: That is your opinion . Quite obvious you do not understand what you were taught. Space-time occupies space. Yes....it is my own personal opinion. Hey! Congrats....you finally got something right on this forum. Keep it up, Charm School. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koti Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Vril said: Quite obvious you do not understand what you were taught. Space-time occupies space. Quite obviously, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about - again. It’s up to you to decide if you want to learn some physics. If you decide you do, I suggest you pay attention to what Strange is posting. There is no space without time, spacetime is inseperable. Edited May 12, 2018 by koti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 ! Moderator Note Civility first, folks. Let's attack ideas, not each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beecee Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 8 hours ago, Vril said: Einstein and relativity does tell us that is not true! What if common sense tells us that it is true ? What if Einstein had some things wrong? Einstein is just one opinion that got agreed with and then taught to the world. What if some of these teachings were wrong? I do not want to really engage in a debate about who is right or wrong, but common sense ''says'' to me that things do happen all at once . In example, it is now on Earth and it is now on the Moon, although the observer may measure time differently , now is always now . Different events are in my opinion just actions in different geometrical positions happening now . A delay in seeing the event is not the same thing as time dividing events. It is the space and distance that divides the events, time divides the synchronous of seeing events. Would you disagree with my opinion? Wow! where to start.....Let me start with the possibility of Einstein being wrong...He certainly was wrong on occasions, such as in the beginning rejecting what GR had told him, re the universe being a static quality rather then a dynamic one: Reason he did that? He was following the accepted "common sense" beliefs of the day, which soon afterwards was shown to be in error by the observational evidence of a comrade named Edward Hubble....which then answers your second faux pas. Your third error was claiming Einstein simply had an opinion. This actually shows that you are totally unaware of what science is, what the scientific method entails, and of course what a scientific theory is. Your fourth error was your apparent insistence on a universal now....do you also claim that the speed of light is instantaneous? Because that is the only way you can have a universal now....Einstein and relativity shows us that beyond any shadow of doubt. So in answer to your final question, yes I disagree with your opinion, simply because observational and experimental evidence show indisputably that you are wrong. Opinions are not science. 4 hours ago, Vril said: How can any experiment prove or show there is no Universal now? Please name one experiment? The finite speed of light. eg: You go out tonight and gaze at Alpha Centauri system...in fact due to the finite speed of light you are seeing the light that left it 4.3 years ago because it is 4.3 L/years away. You do not see it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vril Posted May 12, 2018 Author Share Posted May 12, 2018 (edited) 47 minutes ago, koti said: spacetime is inseperable. You say that with surety but that is not the surety Wikipedia suggests. Quote Space, in everyday language, is something that we all know. It is measured in the three dimensions of distance: length, width, and height. In modern physics, space is a "boundless four-dimensional continuum" known as spacetime. Disagreement exists about whether it is an entity (something that actually exists). I disagree with you and propose that space and space-time are two separate independent things and you failed to understand what space-time is comparative to space. 27 minutes ago, beecee said: The finite speed of light. eg: You go out tonight and gaze at Alpha Centauri system...in fact due to the finite speed of light you are seeing the light that left it 4.3 years ago because it is 4.3 L/years away. You do not see it now. I never said you do see it now , you have misinterpreted the question and are giving an answer to a question that has not been asked. I asked : How can any experiment prove or show there is no Universal now? Please name one experiment Edited May 12, 2018 by Vril Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beecee Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 22 minutes ago, Vril said: You say that with surety but that is not the surety Wikipedia suggests. Your understanding of plain English appears faulty....All Wiki casts some debate on is whether spacetime is a physical entity or not.....simply put something does not need to be physical to be real. Disagreement among scientists as to whether it is real or a mathamtaical construct is what Wiki is talking about. Quote I never said you do see it now , you have misinterpreted the question and are giving an answer to a question that has not been asked. I asked : How can any experiment prove or show there is no Universal now? Please name one experiment Being purposely obtuse does not cut it here. Your question has been answered and the experimental example given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 2 hours ago, Vril said: Space-time occupies space. That makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vril Posted May 12, 2018 Author Share Posted May 12, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Strange said: That makes no sense. Space-time , 3 dimensional vector lines and time is a coordinate system. A mathematical process to measure space. Space is independent of space-time. Edited May 12, 2018 by Vril Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 32 minutes ago, Vril said: How can any experiment prove or show there is no Universal now? You need to start a separate thread where you learn the basic concepts of relativity, and in particular, the concept of relativity of relativity of simultaneity. This shows that different observers measure time and space differently. The most obvious example that there is no universal "now" is the fact that different observers may disagree about whether two events are simultaneous or not. They might even disagree about the ordering of the events. There is lots of experimental evidence for SR. If you think the evidence is incorrect, then explain why. 1 minute ago, Vril said: Space-time , 3 dimensional vector lines and time is a coordinate system. A mathematical process to measure space. Space is independent of space-time. As I said, that makes no sense. Space is just three of the four dimensions of space-time. So you are saying space is independent of space? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vril Posted May 12, 2018 Author Share Posted May 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Strange said: As I said, that makes no sense. Space is just three of the four dimensions of space-time. So you are saying space is independent of space? The 3 dimensions of X,Y and Z are vector lines that define a volume of space boundary , a mathematical description and quantity. Maths is not the space , space is space . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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