Can we control the future?

[dimreepr]

Discuss... 

[Ten oz]

Considering that we can't agree on the past and have only sporadic control over the present I think the answer is no. Of course context is everything and the OP provides none.  I assume the question is referring to humanity having positive control over its own fate?

[dimreepr]

34 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Of course context is everything and the OP provides none.

It's just a question for discussion, besides I'm not sure what context would change an answer.

 

[Ten oz]

8 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

besides I'm not sure what context would change an answer.

I guess if you were asking about free will it would change my answer. 

[StringJunky]

I think you need to see and understand  the path you've trodden to know better where you can tread in the future. The weight of history pretty much dictates what will follow... it has momentum.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I think you need to see and understand  the path you've trodden to know better where you can tread in the future. The weight of history pretty much dictates what will follow... it has momentum.

1

So does a bullet until it hits or ricochets. 

[Sensei]

Quote

Can we control the future?

Yes, you can. You're doing it all day long. e.g. drop tea glass, it will break, and you won't be able to drink from it anymore..

Throw away plastic shop bag to ocean (e.g. leave it on the beach after party, tides will take it).. some fish will tangle in it, and will die.. you killed ("caused death of") living creature.. What if that single living organism was supposed to be new branch of evolution (like amphibian).. ? You cancelled their existence..

 

You should better ask "is there just one version of the future or there is infinite/finite amount of versions of the future?"..

[StringJunky]

19 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

So does a bullet until it hits or ricochets. 

Exactly. But you can't know the future path of the bullet without knowing where it's come from.

[dimreepr]

26 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Exactly. But you can't know the future path of the bullet without knowing where it's come from.

Does it matter where it came from (probably a gun)? No-one plans a ricochet.

Edit, philosophically speaking, that is, I realise NASA and others have done so, context perhaps?

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

You should better ask "is there just one version of the future or there is infinite/finite amount of versions of the future?"..

2

Would that lead to an answer?

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

Yes, you can. You're doing it all day long. e.g. drop tea glass, it will break, and you won't be able to drink from it anymore

Really? Every moment you think has an outcome, is a moment you may be wrong; not everything breaks...

For instance, if I drop a glass and manage to interrupt its fall, does that mean I'll get to drink again? 

Edited May 19, 2018 by dimreepr

[koti]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Discuss... 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

It's just a question for discussion, besides I'm not sure what context would change an answer.

 

I can control whether I’ll have a drink tonight, I can’t control whether I will win 365mln in the Euro Jackpot tonight. There are various levels of controling the future, I can make decisions which have a 100% binary outcome on the future...like for example I won’t be driving after having drinks tonight which renders a 100% outcome that I will not hit anybody while drunk tonight. On the other hand I can only partially control some aspects of the future.

Edited May 19, 2018 by koti

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, koti said:

I can control whether I’ll have a drink tonight,

What if the bullet breaks your glass?

[koti]

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

What if the bullet breaks your glass?

I see your point. There are some aspects of the future which I have 100% control over though - see my drunk driving example above. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by koti

[Bender]

55 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Does it matter where it came from (probably a gun)? No-one plans a ricochet.

Edit, philosophically speaking, that is, I realise NASA and others have done so, context perhaps?

Would that lead to an answer?

Really? Every moment you think has an outcome, is a moment you may be wrong; not everything breaks...

For instance, if I drop a glass and manage to interrupt its fall, does that mean I'll get to drink again? 

If I want the glass broken, it will be, barring unlikely interrupting events.

3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

What if the bullet breaks your glass?

I have more than one glass.

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Bender said:

I have more than one glass.

 

Just not the one you chose to drink from.

[Strange]

20 minutes ago, koti said:

I can control whether I’ll have a drink tonight

Or can you? Is the question about free will vs determinism? In which case, maybe you can't control the future: whatever decision you make (to have a drink or not have drink) may have been predetermined. Even the fact that you change your mind after reading this, to prove that you can, was also predetermined. 

...

...

As was the fact you have just changed it back again

[koti]

9 minutes ago, Strange said:

Or can you? Is the question about free will vs determinism? In which case, maybe you can't control the future: whatever decision you make (to have a drink or not have drink) may have been predetermined. Even the fact that you change your mind after reading this, to prove that you can, was also predetermined. 

...

...

As was the fact you have just changed it back again

I sincerely doubt if this particular aspect of the future is predetermined as I have no idea yet whether I will have a drink tonight or not. As for drunk driving well... I guess if the life of my child depended on it, I would get behind the wheel while drunk hence I initially wrote that there are various levels of control that one has (or rather probabilities) over the future. By this line of thought we cannot be sure about any aspect of the future but what is the probability of a scenario that the moon will get hit tonight by a commet traveling at 0,4c and we will have a completely dark night tonight. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by koti

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, koti said:

I sincerely doubt if this particular aspect of the future is predetermined as I have no idea yet whether I will have a drink tonight or not. As for drunk driving well... I guess if the life of my child depended on it, I would get behind the wheel while drunk hence I initially wrote that there are various levels of control that one has (or rather probabilities) over the future.

But you don't get to choose the probable answer.

[koti]

7 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

But you don't get to choose the probable answer.

I can make a decision now and the probability of me not sticking to it due to some extraordinary reason occuring between me making the decision and 24:00 tonight is extremely low. I have 100% control over the decision, I cannot control extraordinary future circumstances that could lead me to changing it. I think its a good example, my mind is not yet made...convince me that me having or me not having a drink tonight is predetermined (I think its not)

Edited May 19, 2018 by koti

[dimreepr]

17 minutes ago, koti said:

I can make a decision now and the probability of me not sticking to it due to some extraordinary reason occuring between me making the decision and 24:00 tonight is extremely low. I have 100% control over the decision, I cannot control extraordinary future circumstances that could lead me to changing it. I think its a good example, my mind is not yet made...convince me that me having or me not having a drink tonight is predetermined (I think its not)

I can choose to put ink on this piece of paper, I can't control how it's interpreted. 

[Strange]

33 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I can choose to put ink on this piece of paper

Or can you ...

[dimreepr]

18 minutes ago, Strange said:

Or can you ...

can I???

[Strange]

4 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

can I???

I don't know. I suspect you can't but it doesn't matter because you think you can and it can never be proved that you can't!

[koti]

There is a thought experiment by Sam Harris, I think he's very wrong in this case and he's wrong in multiple instances in the video below...for example he stated that we "couldn't pick a city of which the name we don't know if our life depended on it" I picked a city from one of the episodes from the series "StarGate Universe" of which the name I do not know. I'm not even sure it has a name. Not to mention he states in the first 20 seconds of the video that "Even if a conscious intention was trully simultanious....there would still be no room for free will, you still wouldn't know why it is you do what you do" It's a complete strawman in my opinion...what does the fact that you're making or not making a decision have to do with the "why" you are making it, it's two different things. These free will discussions can be attractive, Sam Harris is entertaining to listen to (for a few minutes at least) but when you break down the logic it becomes nonsensical.

Link to the 6 minute thought experiment for reference:

 

[Bender]

5 hours ago, Strange said:

Or can you? Is the question about free will vs determinism? In which case, maybe you can't control the future: whatever decision you make (to have a drink or not have drink) may have been predetermined. Even the fact that you change your mind after reading this, to prove that you can, was also predetermined. 

...

...

As was the fact you have just changed it back again

Free will vs determinism is a false choice, since there is no conflict. You are your brain, so if deterministic chemical reactions in your brain cause a decision, it is you making the decision. Moreover, these reactions take your personal preferences into account, so you could say you are determined to choose what you want to choose. Isn't making the choices we want to make free will?

5 hours ago, koti said:

I can make a decision now and the probability of me not sticking to it due to some extraordinary reason occuring between me making the decision and 24:00 tonight is extremely low. I have 100% control over the decision, I cannot control extraordinary future circumstances that could lead me to changing it. I think its a good example, my mind is not yet made...convince me that me having or me not having a drink tonight is predetermined (I think its not)

I guess the answer depends on whether quantum effects can still influence that decision, and perhaps even on whether many-worlds or Copenhagen is closer to the truth.

Either way, your actions are either determined or they depend on quantum behaviour over which you have no control. As I stated above, they are your actions, and the interactions in your brain do influence the future.

[koti]

1 hour ago, Bender said:

I guess the answer depends on whether quantum effects can still influence that decision, and perhaps even on whether many-worlds or Copenhagen is closer to the truth.

Either way, your actions are either determined or they depend on quantum behaviour over which you have no control. As I stated above, they are your actions, and the interactions in your brain do influence the future.

Does it? I'm not sure that quantum fuzziness has to have an influence over my decisions. I'm leaning towards the Copenhagen Interpretation and Many Worlds both being an approximation of something broader which is still not pre determined like we observe right now (Many Worlds is far fetched though imo) Newton is an approximation of GR and we can pretty much assume that GR is an approximation too due to obvious lack of unification. Predetermination  doesn't make sense to me and it seems that alleged lack of free will has to go hand in hand with it in some weird twisted way. We cannot be sure that there is a GUT out there unifying GR and QM, it's only our human nature that drives us to this scenario so why should we feel the need to make a causal connection between two superimposed electrons and me making a decision of having a drink tonight. I have a problem with accepting that stuff happening at the quantum level has to have an impact on my decisions. A galaxy doesn't care about a small asteroid, why should my bag of meat care about QM ?