Neanderthal Rights

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I asked multiple questions. Feel free to answer the "on topic" one.

"Time for bed"

 

[YaDinghus]

18 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Have ethics existed throughout history? Do ethics exist in the absence of consciousness?

Human history most definitely. 

This is a matter of belief in the sense that I believe that consciousness has a lower brain power threshold than ethics do. Ethics requires the capacity to reflect on your own behaviour in relation to other beings, and that requires consciousness. There are probably other requirements for ethics as well, but I hope this satisfies your question

[Ten oz]

16 minutes ago, YaDinghus said:

Human history most definitely. 

This is a matter of belief in the sense that I believe that consciousness has a lower brain power threshold than ethics do. Ethics requires the capacity to reflect on your own behaviour in relation to other beings, and that requires consciousness. There are probably other requirements for ethics as well, but I hope this satisfies your question

It does and I agree.

[dimreepr]

18 hours ago, Ten oz said:

If homo sapiens and Neanderthals had different types on consciousness would they in turn have different ethics?

2

I'm not sure there are different types of consciousness, levels yes (but that's another question), but what if Neanderthals were naturally herbivorous and perhaps a third equivalent hominid that was carnivorous, how would their ethics differ from an omnivore?    

[YaDinghus]

4 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I'm not sure there are different types of consciousness, levels yes (but that's another question), but what if Neanderthals were naturally herbivorous and perhaps a third equivalent hominid that was carnivorous, how would their ethics differ from an omnivore? 

Unless you yourself are a vegetarian or vegan, in which case you might feel righteous anger for what I'm about to say, you know how annoying vegetarians and vegans can be when they see someone eating meat

[dimreepr]

47 minutes ago, YaDinghus said:

Unless you yourself are a vegetarian or vegan, in which case you might feel righteous anger for what I'm about to say, you know how annoying vegetarians and vegans can be when they see someone eating meat

Indeed, but that's because they assume the moral high ground due to their conscious choice, why would a natural herbivore assume the same?

[YaDinghus]

17 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, but that's because they assume the moral high ground due to their conscious choice, why would a natural herbivore assume the same?

I don't understand why anyone assumes the moral high ground for anything, unless it is to shun racists, sexists, slavers, child molesters, religious fanatics, thieves, murderers, politicians, drug dealers (not for weed)...

[dimreepr]

29 minutes ago, YaDinghus said:

I don't understand why anyone assumes the moral high ground for anything, unless it is to shun racists, sexists, slavers, child molesters, religious fanatics, thieves, murderers, politicians, drug dealers (not for weed)...

1

Well, clearly you do.

Since most herbivores are considered lunch, it's reasonable to assume their ethical code would be OK with killing those that put them on the menu.

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I'm not sure there are different types of consciousness, levels yes (but that's another question), but what if Neanderthals were naturally herbivorous and perhaps a third equivalent hominid that was carnivorous, how would their ethics differ from an omnivore?    

I don't think matters. The question (OP) is how would we homo sapiens treat Neanderthals if they were alive today. My question about consciousness is sloppily asking if the ethics of Neanderthals would impact our own ethics. Can things like "treat others as you'd like to be treated" apply to those who may possibly think or treat themselves in ways separate from how we would?

It is just a thought. I actually believe Neanderthals would be so much like us that it would take a trained observer to tell the difference. 

[dimreepr]

7 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I actually believe Neanderthals would be so much like us that it would take a trained observer to tell the difference. 

I think you're probably right.

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

what if Neanderthals were naturally herbivorous and perhaps a third equivalent hominid that was carnivorous, how would their ethics differ from an omnivore?    

Nevertheless, a valid question I think.

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Nevertheless, a valid question I think.

It is but neither Homo Sapiens are not and Neanderthals were not Herbivores so I do not know how to answer the question. My understanding is that Neanderthals had the same diet as Homo Sapiens did at the time they existed. That was before modern agriculture though. I have no idea if Neanderthals would be able to eat the same diet as we Homo Sapiens do today. Considering the rise in food allergies, digestive issues, and etc it could be argue Homo Sapiens shouldn't be eat as we are. 

[Moontanman]

6 hours ago, Ten oz said:

I don't think matters. The question (OP) is how would we homo sapiens treat Neanderthals if they were alive today. My question about consciousness is sloppily asking if the ethics of Neanderthals would impact our own ethics. Can things like "treat others as you'd like to be treated" apply to those who may possibly think or treat themselves in ways separate from how we would?

It is just a thought. I actually believe Neanderthals would be so much like us that it would take a trained observer to tell the difference. 

I used to work with a guy who could be a stand in for a neanderthal, he had the pronounced eye ridges, sloping forehead, goofy grin, even an apparent occipital bun... I reminded him of it nearly every day... He is dead now, I miss him and his big grin, great guy.. 

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I think you're probably right.

Nevertheless, a valid question I think.

Hmmm... it seems there is some consensus that Neanderthals were mostly carnivores.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_behavior

Quote

Diet[edit]

Early studies indicated that Neanderthals were highly carnivorous and obtained most of the protein in their diet from animal sources.[38] However, traces of fossilized plants have been extracted from Neanderthal teeth found in Belgium and Iraq suggesting they also consumed plants on occasion.[39] There is evidence of cannibalism among Neanderthals.[40][41]

Neanderthals hunted large animals, such as the mammoth. However, they are believed to have practiced cannibalism or ritual defleshing. This hypothesis was formulated after researchers found marks on Neanderthal bones similar to the bones of a dead deer butchered by Neanderthals.

5 hours ago, Ten oz said:

It is but neither Homo Sapiens are not and Neanderthals were not Herbivores so I do not know how to answer the question. My understanding is that Neanderthals had the same diet as Homo Sapiens did at the time they existed. That was before modern agriculture though. I have no idea if Neanderthals would be able to eat the same diet as we Homo Sapiens do today. Considering the rise in food allergies, digestive issues, and etc it could be argue Homo Sapiens shouldn't be eat as we are. 

 

 

 

Oh come on, I know you guys wanted to hear it! 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Moontanman

[YaDinghus]

20 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Well, clearly you do.

Since most herbivores are considered lunch, it's reasonable to assume their ethical code would be OK with killing those that put them on the menu.

True. Also, I was obviosly joking

[dimreepr]

22 minutes ago, YaDinghus said:

True. Also, I was obviosly joking

Yes, I know, but it was an opportunity to expand on my point (I agree on the weed exemption ).

BTW my tongue was firmly in cheek.