Hate is hate no matter your politics.

[koti]

41 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

What if your best friend, who you haven't seen for ten years, walks up to you in happy excitement and opens his arms in anticipation of a heartfelt man hug saying "MY NIGGA"?

Exactly. 

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

What if your best friend, who you haven't seen for ten years, walks up to you in happy excitement and opens his arms in anticipation of a heartfelt man hug saying "MY NIGGA"?

I would think it would depend on whether the friend was black or not. The word has a specific connotation and while it is always an expletive (as Ten Oz implies) a lot of context, intentional or not, goes with it. It is probably more confusing in countries which do not have a significant black population as part of their history (or ignored that they have). After all, a lot of these modern uses have been derived from modern black culture from the US and elsewhere the context is easily lost.

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

What if your best friend, who you haven't seen for ten years, walks up to you in happy excitement and opens his arms in anticipation of a heartfelt man hug saying "MY NIGGA"?

 

1 hour ago, koti said:

Exactly. 

Within the black community there are numerous organizations that advocate against the use of the N-word within the black community. None of my friends would greet me with the N-word.  To be honest I find it silly, or perhaps worse, that you two actually believe this is done causally within civil communities. Perhaps in the media but in my experience it isn't the sort of language used in civil conversation; people know better than to use that type of language around their parent and grandparents. 

29 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I would think it would depend on whether the friend was black or not. The word has a specific connotation and while it is always an expletive (as Ten Oz implies) a lot of context, intentional or not, goes with it. It is probably more confusing in countries which do not have a significant black population as part of their history (or ignored that they have). After all, a lot of these modern uses have been derived from modern black culture from the US and elsewhere the context is easily lost.

More like forced into black culture. From Christianity to the use of the N-word there are a lot of things within the black community which were forced upon blacks. I am not merely referencing slavery either. Negro was still used on birth certificate and other official forms through the 1960's. Today when popular artists like Drake or Jay Z use the N-Word who exactly are they appealing to, who buys their products? This is a majority white country. White consume the majority of all media. One can not be a top selling popular artist without white fans.  

Edited June 2, 2018 by Ten oz

[geordief]

30 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I would think it would depend on whether the friend was black or not. The word has a specific connotation and while it is always an expletive (as Ten Oz implies) a lot of context, intentional or not, goes with it. It is probably more confusing in countries which do not have a significant black population as part of their history (or ignored that they have). After all, a lot of these modern uses have been derived from modern black culture from the US and elsewhere the context is easily lost.

This story seems pertinent. The word was used in an argument and it was claimed it carried no offensive connotation in Uruguay.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2011/dec/15/luis-suarez-patrice-evra-case

 

A huge story at the time in this part of the world.

[koti]

25 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

 

Within the black community there are numerous organizations that advocate against the use of the N-word within the black community. None of my friends would greet me with the N-word.  To be honest I find it silly, or perhaps worse, that you two actually believe this is done causally within civil communities. Perhaps in the media but in my experience it isn't the sort of language used in civil conversation; people know better than to use that type of language around their parent and grandparents. 

What about the time when my black buddy accidently refered to me per „Nigga” when we were kids? Is that acceptable you think?

[geordief]

1 minute ago, koti said:

What about the time when my black buddy accidently refered to me per „Nigga” when we were kids? Is that acceptable you think?

What puzzles and worries me is that ,broadly speaking a word should be deemed acceptable for one group of people and not for others.

 

On inspection one can see good reasons for it . .

 

To expect a life without contradictions is to set oneself up for a fall.Lets embrace our absurdities and ,as they say not take things too seriously (this too will pass.....)

 

Here endeth the platitudes

[Ten oz]

4 minutes ago, koti said:

What about the time when my black buddy accidently refered to me per „Nigga” when we were kids? Is that acceptable you think?

No more or less acceptable than any other curse word. Also kids often have very foul mouths. I used the F-word in nearly every sentence I spoke as a kid. It is silly and immature. What kids do is hardly where one should set the bar for adult behavior. 

[Phi for All]

4 hours ago, Strange said:

I wonder if that is a US thing. In the UK, I have heard it applied to men (by men) pretty frequently. It is just a swear word like any other.

It is a US thing. It's traditionally used exclusively for women, and it usually carries with it a desire to demean, along with all the bundled up viciousness some men hold towards all women because of past perceptions about a few women. The US has a problem with violence-minded misogynists.

[koti]

3 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

No more or less acceptable than any other curse word. Also kids often have very foul mouths. I used the F-word in nearly every sentence I spoke as a kid. It is silly and immature. What kids do is hardly where one should set the bar for adult behavior. 

But you do distinguish between affectionate cursing between men and racial rants by racists? 

[Ten oz]

2 minutes ago, koti said:

But you do distinguish between affectionate cursing between men and racial rants by racists? 

I already address the difference. 

3 hours ago, Ten oz said:

All iteration of the N-word are inappropriate. Sometimes the context is meant as a racial slur and other times as a familiar term or whatever but it is always improper.  Many curse words are commonly used in private settings but that doesn't mean they are okay broadly. I am disappointed every time I hear someone used any iteration of the N-word. It might not always be racist but it is always offensive in my opinion. Only ignorant people use it loosely far as I am concerned. 

Replace using the N-word with using Cocaine. Not everyone who uses Cocaine is a drug addict. Some people just experiment or use it sparingly on special occasions. Ultimately using cocaine is never good. There are ways to use it worse than others but it is never good.  Perhaps you have friends who have tried cocaine. You probably don't disown them for it yet you do understand it is not a good thing. 

15 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

It is a US thing. It's traditionally used exclusively for women, and it usually carries with it a desire to demean, along with all the bundled up viciousness some men hold towards all women because of past perceptions about a few women. The US has a problem with violence-minded misogynists.

True. The caveat in this case however it that those complaining about it don't actually mind the use of the word itself. Had Stormy Daniels been called the C-word those defending Ivanka wouldn't care. The issue is purely a bit of political whataboutism. In Barr's case it is different. Whether Barr called Susan Rice (Democrat) or Condi Rice (Republican) an "Ape" people would have viewed it as racially incendiary. What Barr said and not who she said it about is what has people upset. 

[Endy0816]

I've used it before. I am white myself. Shoot one of my friends(African American) has grandkids, no young kid there. Normally appropriateness scales with racial history and depth of relationship.

Need the right relationship, can't stress that enough.

From what I've seen this does vary wildly just within the US(weidly less intermingling in some areas of the country), though I'd like to think reclaiming it from racists is slowly gaining traction. Give it time.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Endy0816

[Strange]

34 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Whether Barr called Susan Rice (Democrat) or Condi Rice (Republican) an "Ape" people would have viewed it as racially incendiary. What Barr said and not who she said it about is what has people upset. 

This.

And I gather some Trump supporters used the C-word with reference to Clinton in the campaign without too much fuss being made. So there is a precedent.

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

Today when popular artists like Drake or Jay Z use the N-Word who exactly are they appealing to, who buys their products? This is a majority white country.

This view implies that that there is no internal agency within black communities and that is clear not correct. First, the music was not created predominantly with a white audience in mind. The history of black music is vibrant and largely internally driven. It is correct that the use is also controversial in black communities. However, there is also considerable acceptance, especially of the use of "nigga" for intragroup references. And it is not a subservience to the use of "nigger" by white folks (or even self hatred as some have suggested). Studies have found several lines of reasoning why the term is still used, including specially assert agency by reclaiming the term that was not only hateful, but also associated with violence and dominance.

Investigating use of ethnic terms in comedic data showed that "nigga" is used far more frequently to connotate ethnic meaning compared to therms such as "brother", "sister" or even black. In interviews, it was found that the term "nigga" confers a meaning of solidarity, and being pragmatic survivors, coming from a diasporic background, often in the context of unfair legal or other treatments. It conveys the meaning of struggle that is so often found in Soul music and points back to the historic experience of African Americans. For many, it is therefore a self-referencing term of acknowledgement of their background but used in a matter that is empowering (as survivors) rather than demeaning. This historic background makes it difficult for usage in other context, as it is ultimately derived from the African American community. 

There is a lot of context for this particular term and some good papers have been published including some compelling reads by Jacquelyn Rahman (on the linguistic side) and Randall Kennedy (on the law side), for example.

[MigL]

But should we be discussing whether Republicans called H Clinton the same C word during the election, or whether this is appropriate use by a TV personality, or for any person to describe someone of the female ( or in Britain, even male ) gender ? That is certainly 'what about ism'.
We are discussing whether its the 'right' thing to do.

And sure it happens all the time in people's private conversations, Just like the N word gets used, and sometimes its just attributed to familiarity or ignorance. But if you are broadcasting it over the airwaves you are a racist if you use the N word and a misogynistic woman hater if you use the C word.
And what does it make the people who condone and allow such behavior ?

Edited June 2, 2018 by MigL

[Ten oz]

2 minutes ago, CharonY said:

This view implies that that there is no internal agency within black communities and that is clear not correct.

Black communities are not singular anymore than White ones are. What it means to be White or Black in Salt Lake City is different than what it means to be White or Black in NYC. 

5 minutes ago, CharonY said:

The history of black music is vibrant and largely internally driven. It is correct that the use is also controversial in black communities. However, there is also considerable acceptance, especially of the use of "nigga" for intragroup references

What are the historical examples of this? I am not familiar with Chuck Berry, Motown Artists, Gospel Artists, or etc using the N-word. You are right that black music has a storied history but you are greatly mistaken if you think the N-word's use is part of that. As for the intragroup thing you referenced did civil rights leaders like Martin Luther King use the N-Word?

Quote

 

"The term "negro" developed from a word in the Spanish langnage which is actually an adjective (describing word) meaning "black," that is, the color black. In plain English, if someone said or was called a "black" or a "dark," even a young child would very naturally question. "A black what?" or "A dark what?" because adjectives do not name, they describe. Please take note that in order to make use of this mechanism, a word was transferred from another language and deceptively changed in function from an adjective to a noun, which is a naming word. Its application in the nominative (naming) sense was intentionally used to portray persons in a position of objects or "things." It stamps the article as being "all alike and all the same." It denotes: a "darkie," a slave, a subhuman, an ex-slave, a "negro."

Afro-Americans must reanalyze and particularly question our own use of this term, keeping in mind all the facts. In light of the historical meanings and current implications, all intelligent and informed Afro-Americans and Africans continue to reject its use in the noun form as well as a proper adjective. Its usage shall continue to be considered as unenlightened and objectionable or deliberately offensive whether in speech or writing." - Malcom X 

 

 

20 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Investigating use of ethnic terms in comedic data showed that "nigga" is used far more frequently to connotate ethnic meaning compared to therms such as "brother", "sister" or even black

Absolutely, similarly females in media are normally thin, have long hair, wear short skirts, and etc. Just as nearly all gay men in media are fashion minded and flamboyant. In popular media minority groups are forced to be stereotypical. Robert Townsend film "Hollywood Shuffle" was a satire addressing this very issue. An N-word is basically forced to be an N-word if they want to make it. 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093200/

 

21 minutes ago, MigL said:

But should we be discussing whether Republicans called H Clinton the same C word during the election, or whether this is appropriate use by a TV personality, or for any person to describe someone of the female ( or in Britain, even male ) gender ? That is certainly 'what about ism'.
We are discussing whether its the 'right' thing to do.

And sure it happens all the time in people's private conversations, Just like the N word gets used, and sometimes its just attributed to familiarity or ignorance. But if you are broadcasting it over the airwaves you are a racist if you use the N word and a misogynistic woman hater if you use the C word.
And what does it make the people who condone and allow such behavior ?

And yet we all have heard the N-word on TV millions of times. Who is using it and how determines the level of umbrage. Personally I am always annoyed when I hear the N-word but do understand they is a  distinction between  a Rapper or comedian using it to self Identify vs a White Supremacist using it categorize others.

Make no mistake I think using the C-word is in poor taste too even when used by a female. Apologizes have been issued. That said there are degrees. Walking up to a person who happens to be Jewish and calling them stupid for no reason is bad. Walking up to the same person and performing a Nazi salute is worse. What Barr did was worse. 

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

What are the historical examples of this? I am not familiar with Chuck Berry, Motown Artists, Gospel Artists, or etc using the N-word. You are right that black music has a storied history but you are greatly mistaken if you think the N-word's use is part of that. As for the intragroup thing you referenced did civil rights leaders like Martin Luther King use the N-Word?

You are framing it incredibly tight if you think that these are the only members of the community that matter. As a matter of fact it is generally accepted that the first non-pejorative use of "nigger" was used very early on and was used as a self-reference during time of slavery. Rather than conveying inferiority, however, it was associated with being a survivor (see Stuckey: Going through the storms: The influence of African American art in history). Thus, some of original non-pejorative meaning has been circulating in the community. Many civil rights groups condemned the use in either form, but as you mentioned, African Americans are not an uniform block. I find it interesting that you exclude music originating from African American groups such as rap and hip-hop, for example. Clearly, there is more than a simple one-sided element to the use of the term and the African American community has clearly diverse views on them. 

Kennedy, for example described several instances where the use of the term by African American was described. Examples include the journalist Roi Ottley, who asserted that it was used quite freely out of earshot of whites (1943), Clarence Mayor described it used by black people as "a racial term with undertones of warmth and good will-reflecting ... a tragicomic sensibility that is aware of black history". There are further books and articles that describe the connotations and use of the term among in the African American community. But I think it is quite clear that the African American community has struggled with that word for a very long time  and has taken a wide range of stances and approaches to deal with it. 

[swansont]

On June 1, 2018 at 4:56 PM, MigL said:

So Rosanne Barr displays to the world that she doesn't just play 'white trash' on TV; she IS white trash.
And she gets herself and a lot of others , on the unemployment line.
Whether you think that's fair to the rest of the cast or others who worked on the show, is irrelevant, as the network has the right to protect its 'image'.

Now Samantha Bee calls Ivanka Trump a "c**t' on national TV and no action is taken by the network.

Is this the double standard Republicans are always complaining about ?
Are TV networks trying to project an Anti-Trump image, so this is OK ?
Is this a non-issue ( because it agrees with your sensibilities ) ?
Or is hateful speech to be called out no matter what your political leanings ?

 

Being vulgar is not equivalent to being racist. No, it's not a double standard.

5 hours ago, Strange said:

This.

And I gather some Trump supporters used the C-word with reference to Clinton in the campaign without too much fuss being made. So there is a precedent.

Roseanne did. Ted Nugent, who was invited to the White House. And others, who had t-shirts made

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/6/1/1768788/-So-it-turns-out-that-Roseanne-once-called-Hillary-a-C-nt-too

[MigL]

Just a vulgarity, Swansont ?
I suppose that could be your opinion.
My opinion is that the term reduces a woman's worth to an orifice used for sexual gratification.
If that isn't offensive to womankind, I don't know what is.

And your reply to Strange may as well have started with...
"WHAT ABOUT when these other jackasses used the same offensive and disparaging ( to women ) word."

But we have women members, it would be nice to get their opinion on the matter.
( and whether the use of that term offends them even if not directed at them )

Edited June 3, 2018 by MigL

[Endercreeper01]

Racism isn't exactly always a bad thing as is thought. Racism can be justified in certain contexts or situations, even if it is offensive to some.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Endercreeper01

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Just a vulgarity, Swansont ?
I suppose that could be your opinion.
My opinion is that the term reduces a woman's worth to an orifice used for sexual gratification.
If that isn't offensive to womankind, I don't know what is.

And your reply to Strange may as well have started with...
"WHAT ABOUT when these other jackasses used the same offensive and disparaging ( to women ) word."

But we have women members, it would be nice to get their opinion on the matter.
( and whether the use of that term offends them even if not directed at them )

In the real world, women give it as good as they get. I think it's  only a rarified, cloistered few that would be upset to any great extent.

[Ten oz]

7 hours ago, MigL said:

Just a vulgarity, Swansont ?
I suppose that could be your opinion.
My opinion is that the term reduces a woman's worth to an orifice used for sexual gratification.
If that isn't offensive to womankind, I don't know what is.

And your reply to Strange may as well have started with...
"WHAT ABOUT when these other jackasses used the same offensive and disparaging ( to women ) word."

But we have women members, it would be nice to get their opinion on the matter.
( and whether the use of that term offends them even if not directed at them )

It isn't women who are claiming offensive over what Samantha Bee said but rather it is right leaning males. Many insulting things are said about any number of people a lot the time. This has gained traction in conservative circles seemingly as a means to say #ustoo in the wake of Barr being called out for her nonsense. It is disingenuous. 

Let's not forget Ivanka's own father has publicly reduced her worth to sexuality numerous times going so far as to saying he'd be dating her if they weren't related. 

14 hours ago, CharonY said:

You are framing it incredibly tight if you think that these are the only members of the community that matter. As a matter of fact it is generally accepted that the first non-pejorative use of "nigger" was used very early on and was used as a self-reference during time of slavery. Rather than conveying inferiority, however, it was associated with being a survivor (see Stuckey: Going through the storms: The influence of African American art in history). Thus, some of original non-pejorative meaning has been circulating in the community. Many civil rights groups condemned the use in either form, but as you mentioned, African Americans are not an uniform block. I find it interesting that you exclude music originating from African American groups such as rap and hip-hop, for example. Clearly, there is more than a simple one-sided element to the use of the term and the African American community has clearly diverse views on them. 

Kennedy, for example described several instances where the use of the term by African American was described. Examples include the journalist Roi Ottley, who asserted that it was used quite freely out of earshot of whites (1943), Clarence Mayor described it used by black people as "a racial term with undertones of warmth and good will-reflecting ... a tragicomic sensibility that is aware of black history". There are further books and articles that describe the connotations and use of the term among in the African American community. But I think it is quite clear that the African American community has struggled with that word for a very long time  and has taken a wide range of stances and approaches to deal with it. 

I'll use women as a comparison because I think it is the easiest example we all have the ability to identify in culture because we all have women in our lives. Prostitution is often called the oldest profession. Women have dealt with Misogyny for millennia. Even seemingly successful women today are being exploited on the casting couches by people like Weinstein. In popular media nearly all women are forced to do obligatory nude scenes films, have their legs out while reading the news on FoxNews, talk about who they are wearing on the red carpet (as if all women care about that), and etc, etc, etc. Some women embrace being the subjugation and lean into it. Some women own pornography studios, are madams at brothels,  create stripper pole based workouts, and etc, etc. Sure, some women claim to enjoy being strippers but we all understand it isn't ideal. I believe everyone knows what it is about. People don't argue that within the female community prostitution or etc is viewed as a good thing. Rather it is understood to be an unfortunately byproduct of the way women are treated and valued by society. The overwhelming majority of the real women in our lives (mothers, sisters, wives, etc) are not accurately represented in popular media. 

Same goes for the N-word. Samuel L. Jackson may have embraced the vulgarity and hyperbole associated with the popular black male image for the sake of a career but it is just an abstraction. Just as women still consume media full of scantily clad women understanding that it is what women in media must do so to do black people attend comedy shows and concerts understand the performers are performing as society demands. Some black people do use the n-word just as some women are gold diggers. There are unfortunately people in this world who do unfortunate things. However in the case of black people the causal use and acceptance of the N-word is greatly exaggerated by popular media. Within black communities hearing young kids use the n-word is cringe worthy just as among women seeing young girls over sexualized is cringe worthy. Some chauvinists think it natural. That women just like showing skin and being seen. Similarly many black project on the the black community behaviors and attitudes which do not actually reflect the daily reality.  and there is plenty of evidence for confirmation bias  on all sides. A chauvinist has no trouble finding women who are playing the part.  

 

 

[swansont]

9 hours ago, MigL said:

Just a vulgarity, Swansont ?
I suppose that could be your opinion.

I did not say "just a vulgarity," I said that vulgarity and racism are not the same.

If you disagree, then perhaps you can explain how the c-word is racist, rather than employ a straw man argument.

9 hours ago, MigL said:

My opinion is that the term reduces a woman's worth to an orifice used for sexual gratification.
If that isn't offensive to womankind, I don't know what is.

I don't disagree, but this is irrelevant to what I said. Sam Bee was most likely trying to be offensive. Provocation is part and parcel of doing that sort of comedy. Drawing attention to the situation. But the provocation was not racist.

9 hours ago, MigL said:

And your reply to Strange may as well have started with...
"WHAT ABOUT when these other jackasses used the same offensive and disparaging ( to women ) word."

I was confirming Strange's statement by offering some concrete example with a link to the supporting evidence. So I'm not sure of your point, here.

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

I'll use women as a comparison because I think it is the easiest example we all have the ability to identify in culture because we all have women in our lives. Prostitution is often called the oldest profession. Women have dealt with Misogyny for millennia. Even seemingly successful women today are being exploited on the casting couches by people like Weinstein. In popular media nearly all women are forced to do obligatory nude scenes films, have their legs out while reading the news on FoxNews, talk about who they are wearing on the red carpet (as if all women care about that), and etc, etc, etc. Some women embrace being the subjugation and lean into it. Some women own pornography studios, are madams at brothels,  create stripper pole based workouts, and etc, etc. Sure, some women claim to enjoy being strippers but we all understand it isn't ideal. I believe everyone knows what it is about. People don't argue that within the female community prostitution or etc is viewed as a good thing. Rather it is understood to be an unfortunately byproduct of the way women are treated and valued by society. The overwhelming majority of the real women in our lives (mothers, sisters, wives, etc) are not accurately represented in popular media. 

Same goes for the N-word. Samuel L. Jackson may have embraced the vulgarity and hyperbole associated with the popular black male image for the sake of a career but it is just an abstraction. Just as women still consume media full of scantily clad women understanding that it is what women in media must do so to do black people attend comedy shows and concerts understand the performers are performing as society demands. Some black people do use the n-word just as some women are gold diggers. There are unfortunately people in this world who do unfortunate things. However in the case of black people the causal use and acceptance of the N-word is greatly exaggerated by popular media. Within black communities hearing young kids use the n-word is cringe worthy just as among women seeing young girls over sexualized is cringe worthy. Some chauvinists think it natural. That women just like showing skin and being seen. Similarly many black project on the the black community behaviors and attitudes which do not actually reflect the daily reality.  and there is plenty of evidence for confirmation bias  on all sides. A chauvinist has no trouble finding women who are playing the part.

However close we get to an equal society, there will always be people that assume superiority and hate the fact that they aren't and other people that hate them for it. The "superior" use insults as a weapon to suppress, so "the joke" is an excuse and never funny. The others use jokes as a weapon to enlighten the undecided and belittle the superior and that's the reason they're funny. And some people are neither, they just laugh when something's funny.

21 hours ago, CharonY said:

I would think it would depend on whether the friend was black or not. The word has a specific connotation and while it is always an expletive (as Ten Oz implies) a lot of context, intentional or not, goes with it. It is probably more confusing in countries which do not have a significant black population as part of their history (or ignored that they have). After all, a lot of these modern uses have been derived from modern black culture from the US and elsewhere the context is easily lost.

2

Not in the context of the interaction, two friends, the colour of which is immaterial, greet each other in the context of their mutual culture in which there's a myriad of reasons why "my nigga" is acceptable to both, no insult, not even a joke intended; the only possible reason for offense is, if the interaction is observed and even then it's only due to not understanding the context of the interaction.

Edited June 3, 2018 by dimreepr

[iNow]

9 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

Racism can be justified in certain contexts or situations, even if it is offensive to some.

You should start a new thread so we can decimate this asinine misguided claim without being off topic. 

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Not in the context of the interaction, two friends, the colour of which is immaterial, greet each other in the context of their mutual culture in which there's a myriad of reasons why "my nigga" is acceptable to both, no insult, not even a joke intended; the only possible reason for offense is, if the interaction is observed and even then it's only due to not understanding the context of the interaction.

This is only true if the two friends share this perspective and I personally have experienced it most often where that was not the case and offense was caused.