Hate is hate no matter your politics.

[koti]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

...and even then it's only due to not understanding the context of the interaction.

Or being a c.

[dimreepr]

33 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

This is only true if the two friends share this perspective and I personally have experienced it most often where that was not the case and offense was caused. 

Well then, I guess we have different friends.

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Well then, I guess we have different friends.

And standards. I would not be friends with someone who used the N word.

 

[Endercreeper01]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

And standards. I would not be friends with someone who used the N word.

 

There really isn't any reason to be offended at someone who isn't being intentionally racist. Such reactions are based in emotion and not logic, and don't actually do any good.

[Phi for All]

11 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

There really isn't any reason to be offended at someone who isn't being intentionally racist. Such reactions are based in emotion and not logic, and don't actually do any good.

But can you knock down the real argument? We know you can hit the strawman...

[Ten oz]

11 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

There really isn't any reason to be offended at someone who isn't being intentionally racist. Such reactions are based in emotion and not logic, and don't actually do any good.

Intention is not relevant. I don't believe Rosanne Barr intentionally meant to be racist. Rather she was just being loud and outspoken, per her style, and wasn't careful enough about who she might offend.  

[Endercreeper01]

52 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Intention is not relevant. I don't believe Rosanne Barr intentionally meant to be racist. Rather she was just being loud and outspoken, per her style, and wasn't careful enough about who she might offend.  

The problem is with the idea of getting offended. The only thing that offense is rooted in is emotional reaction to a situation. There isn't any real reason behind taking offense to things besides emotion.

As for Rosanne Barr, canceling her show was an overreaction, and it really doesn't accomplish anything. Not that there was anything wrong with what she said, because she really didn't say anything bad. It may be racist, but racism isn't really bad itself.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Endercreeper01

[Ten oz]

9 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

As for Rosanne Barr, canceling her show was an overreaction

ABC makes money via advertising. How much money should ABC lose because Barr felt like twitting nonsense?

 

 

[Endercreeper01]

Just now, Ten oz said:

ABC makes money via advertising. How much money should ABC lose because Barr felt like twitting nonsense?

 

 

The problem is not only with the company, rather it is with the general attitude against racism, and the general attitude of taking offense.

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Endercreeper01 said:

The problem is with the idea of getting offended. The only thing that offense is rooted in is emotional reaction to a situation. There isn't any real reason behind taking offense to things besides emotion.

I think you're completely wrong here. What is offensive is the idea of prejudging individuals based on broad stereotypes of groups of any sort. That's not an emotional stance, since we can easily show how prejudice damages a society. The emotional stance is the racist one, the one that uses no reasoning. Do you think racial hatred is the best way to deal with the development of our world? Will intolerance end up being the best course?

32 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

The problem is not only with the company, rather it is with the general attitude against racism, and the general attitude of taking offense.

I think you equate taking offense with "hurt feelings". You need to stop redefining well-known words.

Ignorance is a human condition that's easily curable. The only offense is when it's willful.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

ABC makes money via advertising. How much money should ABC lose because Barr felt like twitting nonsense?

Exactly. The knew what would happen next: advertisers pulling out so they don't get the stink all over them and lose business, and then the show doesn't make money, and some people might boycott the whole network. They were getting out ahead of the problem.

[Endercreeper01]

48 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I think you're completely wrong here. What is offensive is the idea of prejudging individuals based on broad stereotypes of groups of any sort. That's not an emotional stance, since we can easily show how prejudice damages a society. The emotional stance is the racist one, the one that uses no reasoning. Do you think racial hatred is the best way to deal with the development of our world? Will intolerance end up being the best course?

I think you equate taking offense with "hurt feelings". You need to stop redefining well-known words.

Ignorance is a human condition that's easily curable. The only offense is when it's willful.

Offense to a simple off handed comment is simply taking things too far. It's the general attitude that is being taken too far in general and causing things like this to happen.

The idea that prejudice at all or the adherence to stereotypes is wrong is really being based on emotional opposition to racism rather than an adherence to truth. Stereotypes tend to be true a lot of the time or at least have some sort of accuracy. A desire to prevent racism, however well it may be, should not be held in higher esteem than an adherence to truth, no matter what that truth may be.

Is canceling a show that affects the jobs of almost 200 people really the best course of action? Over reactions like this really do nothing but harm.

7 minutes ago, swansont said:

Exactly. The knew what would happen next: advertisers pulling out so they don't get the stink all over them and lose business, and then the show doesn't make money, and some people might boycott the whole network. They were getting out ahead of the problem.

It's not necessarily the companies fault. However they are still acting in compliance with a culture of over-sensitivity that prevails over common sense when it shouldn't.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Endercreeper01

[dimreepr]

12 hours ago, Ten oz said:

And standards. I would not be friends with someone who used the N word.

1

Some of my friends are racist (I don't like it and challenge them every time) and some of my friends use the N word (in a private setting, ironically) context and relative hatred is key.

Here's an interesting perspective.

[YaDinghus]

8 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

Offense to a simple off handed comment is simply taking things too far. It's the general attitude that is being taken too far in general and causing things like this to happen.

So if I offhandedly called you a Nazi, you wouldn't take offense to that?

 

8 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

The idea that prejudice at all or the adherence to stereotypes is wrong is really being based on emotional opposition to racism rather than an adherence to truth. Stereotypes tend to be true a lot of the time or at least have some sort of accuracy. A desire to prevent racism, however well it may be, should not be held in higher esteem than an adherence to truth, no matter what that truth may be.

Which truth are you referring to? The superiority of the Master Race?

 

8 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

Is canceling a show that affects the jobs of almost 200 people really the best course of action? Over reactions like this really do nothing but harm.

They'll find new jobs. After all, they can claim to have worked on one of the most successful sitcoms in the US. Maybe they weren't even fired, but just got sent to another show that's taking Roseanne's slot?

 

8 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

It's not necessarily the companies fault. However they are still acting in compliance with a culture of over-sensitivity that prevails over common sense when it shouldn't.

When your perceived oversensitivity becomes the culture, it is by definition common sense:

Quote

Common sense is the body of ideas widely understood as prudent and sound in judgment without dependence upon specialized knowledge

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense_(disambiguation)

[swansont]

11 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

 It's not necessarily the companies fault. However they are still acting in compliance with a culture of over-sensitivity that prevails over common sense when it shouldn't.

I don't see it as oversensitivity prevailing over common sense, and I wasn't "blaming" the company.

What should people do? Say "Oh, Roseanne, what a bigot, bless her heart!" and go on with their day? Or should they recognize that such an attitude is unacceptable, and it demands a proportional response?

[dimreepr]

16 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

There really isn't any reason to be offended at someone who isn't being intentionally racist. Such reactions are based in emotion and not logic, and don't actually do any good.

Hatred is never acceptable, surely your higher power told you that...

[Ten oz]

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Some of my friends are racist (I don't like it and challenge them every time) and some of my friends use the N word (in a private setting, ironically) context and relative hatred is key.

I voluntarily do outreach for my company (something I recently started doing). We have some scholarships and promotional things we do generally with community colleges. Our target demo is sophomores trying to figure what to do next. We try to cover every demographic. One group we hadn't reached, did not have in our program, were Asians. I was invited to a meeting where the diversity with our program was being discussed. When the topic of Asian outreach came up it was noted that the lack of Asians in our program was due to the lack of Asians at Community Colleges (I am heavily abbreviating what was a long meeting). Being from the San Francisco Bay Area I knew that San Fran City College had 20k students and nearly 40%  of them were Asian. When I brought it up everyone was very skeptical of my numbers. After the meeting I had several side conversations and emails exchanges with people and it took a couple weeks to convince everyone I wasn't just making the numbers up. Eventually everyone got it and we sent people there. 

The stereotype is that all Asian students have incredible grades, great SAT scores, attend the best Universities, and have college all figured out. Everyone honestly/innocently assumed Asians didn't need us and simply had not bothered to run the numbers as we all are just volunteers and are not professional recruiters. The result of people believing the stereotype was that students who did not meet the stereotype were being discriminated against. Not on purpose or because of hatred but out of ignorance. That is how stereotypes work. It leads people to draw inaccurate conclusions. On the surface nothing about saying about saying all Asians go the Ivy League schools seems bad and yet it is. 

That is just one story, one experience, but I've had thousands in my life. Enough that I have learned that hatred is not key. Hatred doesn't even matter. 

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Here's an interesting perspective.

I never said no one should ever use vulgarity. Rather I am just saying we should identify vulgarity as such. I also mentioned as a kid I was very vulgar. I am not a kid anymore though. I am an adult and understand the way I behave impacts the lives of people around. Which brings us back to Rosanne Barr's comments. Barr is the face of a successful hit show. Her momentary lapse in judgement didn't only cost Barr her job but the whole cast and writers their jobs too. It was very selfish of her.  

 

[dimreepr]

5 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I never said no one should ever use vulgarity. Rather I am just saying we should identify vulgarity as such. I also mentioned as a kid I was very vulgar. I am not a kid anymore though. I am an adult and understand the way I behave impacts the lives of people around. Which brings us back to Rosanne Barr's comments. Barr is the face of a successful hit show. Her momentary lapse in judgement didn't only cost Barr her job but the whole cast and writers their jobs too. It was very selfish of her. 

May I suggest you revisit my previous posts in this thread, for context, I am not (or have ever) trying to justify Barr's comments, they were clearly hateful, whether the language used is considered a vulgarity or a slur... racist or not... she deserved the punishment and it could be argued, so did the rest of the cast since they couldn't persuade her to change her attitude; if I was one of them I'd gladly lose my job if it was because I called her hate out (I've lost a few jobs that way).  

[Ten oz]

8 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

May I suggest you revisit my previous posts in this thread, for context, I am not (or have ever) trying to justify Barr's comments, they were clearly hateful, whether the language used is considered a vulgarity or a slur... racist or not... she deserved the punishment and it could be argued, so did the rest of the cast since they couldn't persuade her to change her attitude; if I was one of them I'd gladly lose my job if it was because I called her hate out (I've lost a few jobs that way).  

I wasn't implying you were defending Barr's comments. I was just trying to bring it back to the topic. 

[dimreepr]

17 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

The stereotype is that all Asian students have incredible grades, great SAT scores, attend the best Universities, and have college all figured out. Everyone honestly/innocently assumed Asians didn't need us and simply had not bothered to run the numbers as we all are just volunteers and are not professional recruiters. The result of people believing the stereotype was that students who did not meet the stereotype were being discriminated against. Not on purpose or because of hatred but out of ignorance. That is how stereotypes work. It leads people to draw inaccurate conclusions. On the surface nothing about saying about saying all Asians go the Ivy League schools seems bad and yet it is. 

That is just one story, one experience, but I've had thousands in my life. Enough that I have learned that hatred is not key. Hatred doesn't even matter. 

1

Stereotypes are much easier to break through when hatred's not involved, that's why a lot of successful projects target kindergarten.

We have a lot of Asian comics in England who satirise those stereotypes because when we lose the innocence in a toxic environment hate is embedded at every point on the bell curve.    

When all around is hate, humour is a fine foxhole. 

[Ten oz]

13 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Stereotypes are much easier to break through when hatred's not involved, that's why a lot of successful projects target kindergarten.

I don't agree with this. Some of the most broadly accepted stereotypes have nothing to do with hatred. I think stereotypes centered around hatred are the easiest to identify and knock down. Most people are sensible enough not to repeat hate speech. I have never had a person say to my face that black people are criminals but I have had countless people tell me black people are all great athletes. People aren't shy when the associated stereotype is seemingly positive.   

[Phi for All]

14 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

Offense to a simple off handed comment

I don't really see the point of discussing anything with you when you argue this way. Even you can't possibly believe "a simple off handed comment" caused all this reaction. You don't use reason very well.

[Scott of the Antares]

6 hours ago, YaDinghus said:

So if I offhandedly called you a Nazi, you wouldn't take offense to t

 

I suppose this depends on whether he is a nazi; if not you minds as well call him any non-related slur.

6 hours ago, YaDinghus said:

Which truth are you referring to? The superiority of the Master Race?

 

I had an discussion about racism with some of my friends. One of them said it was racist to mention any racial differences, which we generally thought was rubbish. It is a general truth that Ethiopian genetics create better long distance runners and Central African genetics generally favour powerful quick sprint runners. This is general truth based on racial/genetic realities, but to call this racist is just wrong.

[YaDinghus]

7 minutes ago, Scott of the Antares said:

It is a general truth that Ethiopian genetics create better long distance runners and Central African genetics generally favour powerful quick sprint runners. This is general truth based on racial/genetic realities, but to call this racist is just wrong.

It's also true that the Irish are the best at producing Vitamin D via their skin because they are genetically inclined to be the whitest people on earth. I'm not saying there aren't adaptations to life style and environment, just that it doesn't make any group systematically inferior or superior.

[Ten oz]

8 minutes ago, Scott of the Antares said:

It is a general truth that Ethiopian genetics create better long distance runners and Central African genetics generally favour powerful quick sprint runners. This is general truth based on racial/genetic realities, but to call this racist is just wrong.

There is genetic diversity even within immediate family members. All Ethiopian's are not long distance runners nor are all born with a higher than average potential to be. One shouldn't treat such things as absolutes because they are not.