Nero Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 What in the estimated position of Pioneer space crafts, are they in the Kepler Belt ?
beecee Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 38 minutes ago, Nero said: What in the estimated position of Pioneer space crafts, are they in the Kepler Belt ? Pioneers 1 and 2??? They were launched in the late fifties just after the start of the space race bewteen the USSR and the newly formed NASA. Both have I'm sure now crashed back to Earth. Are you thinking of Pioneers 10 and 11? These were launched in the seventies and explored the out solar system and both are probably now leaving the solar system along with the two Voyagers.
et pet Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Nero said: What in the estimated position of Pioneer space crafts, are they in the Kepler Belt ? Are you perhaps referring to the Kuiper Belt, Nero? It is an area of our Solar System, similar to the Asteroid Belt, but begins at about the orbit of Neptune, around 30 Astronomical Units(AU*) from the Sun and reaches to around 50 AU's from the Sun. Neither Pioneer 1, nor Pioneer 2 actually succeeded in their missions by reaching Lunar Orbit. Pioneer 1 only reached about 113,000 kilometers in altitude, and fell back to Earth within 2 days. Pioneer 2 reached less than 1,500 kilometers and fell back to earth within 6 or 7 hours after launch. Nero, Pioneer 10 is currently ~120-122 AU's from the Sun. It is traveling at about 2 1/2 AU's per year. Pioneer 11 is not quite as far from the Sun as Pioneer 10, I think it is about 2 or 3 AU's less distant than Pioneer 10 - although traveling in a different direction. Nero, both of the Pioneer spacecraft are currently well beyond, or farther away than, the Kuiper Belt I believe that Pioneer 10 is currently the Second farthest man made object from earth, behind Voyager 1. Don't hold me to that, though, because if Voyager 2 has not already taken over as second farthest behind Voyager 1, I am sure that it will within the next 2 years or thereabouts. The Oort Cloud begins at around 5,000 AU's from the Sun and extends to around 100,000 AU's from the Sun. Where the Oort Cloud ends is generally considered to be the outer reaches of our Solar System. So, Nero, both of the Voyager and both of the Pioneer spacecraft still have several thousands years of traveling before leaving the Solar System(if they do not encounter something in the vastness of space to change their outbound courses or potentially even destroy them!). *An Astronomical Unit(AU) is a Unit of Measurement that roughly corresponds to the 'mean' distance from the center of the Sun to center of the Earth - approximately 93,000,000(93 Million) miles or 150,000,000(150 Million)Kilometers. Edited June 10, 2018 by et pet clarification and spelling!
beecee Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 1 hour ago, et pet said: So, Nero, both of the Voyager and both of the Pioneer spacecraft still have several thousands years of traveling before leaving the Solar System(if they do not encounter something in the vastness of space to change their outbound courses or potentially even destroy them!). Nice detailed info etpet...just a correction... Voyager 1 has been deemed to have now left the solar system and is inter stellar spapce, and has been now for a number of years, and Voyager 2 is still in the heliosheath. https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status/ "Voyager 1 is in "Interstellar space" and Voyager 2 is currently in the "Heliosheath" -- the outermost layer of the heliosphere where the solar wind is slowed by the pressure of interstellar gas" Also the parameters of our solar system are thought to be realized at what is called the "terminal shock" boundary or where the solar wind ends and is turned back and interstellar space begins. https://www.space.com/22729-voyager-1-spacecraft-interstellar-space.html The Oort cloud of course is still rather hypothetical and at best is only only loosely gravitationally bound to our solar system. Probably why Voyager 1 has been deemed for all intents and purposes to have left the solar system. https://space-facts.com/oort-cloud/ While some contact is still possible with the Voyager probes, contact with both Pioneer probes have ceased.
et pet Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, beecee said: Nice detailed info etpet...just a correction... Voyager 1 has been deemed to have now left the solar system and is inter stellar spapce, and has been now for a number of years, and Voyager 2 is still in the heliosheath. https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status/ "Voyager 1 is in "Interstellar space" and Voyager 2 is currently in the "Heliosheath" -- the outermost layer of the heliosphere where the solar wind is slowed by the pressure of interstellar gas" Also the parameters of our solar system are thought to be realized at what is called the "terminal shock" boundary or where the solar wind ends and is turned back and interstellar space begins. https://www.space.com/22729-voyager-1-spacecraft-interstellar-space.html The Oort cloud of course is still rather hypothetical and at best is only only loosely gravitationally bound to our solar system. Probably why Voyager 1 has been deemed for all intents and purposes to have left the solar system. https://space-facts.com/oort-cloud/ While some contact is still possible with the Voyager probes, contact with both Pioneer probes have ceased. From your Link : https://www.space.com/22729-voyager-1-spacecraft-interstellar-space.html " Mission scientists have long pegged Voyager 1's departure from the solar system on the observation of three phenomena: a big drop in solar particles, a dramatic jump in galactic cosmic rays and a shift in the orientation of the surrounding magnetic field. Voyager 1 has measured the first two changes, as noted above, but not the third; the magnetic field is stronger than it used to be in the probe's location, but it hasn't changed direction. This key point has led NASA and the mission team to proceed with caution. " https://www.space.com/22729-voyager-1-spacecraft-interstellar-space.html Then we have this, from NASA : https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/voyager/multimedia/pia17046.html "Informally, the term "solar system" is often used to mean the space out to the last planet. Scientific consensus, however, says the solar system goes out to the Oort Cloud, the source of the comets that swing by our sun on long time scales. Beyond the outer edge of the Oort Cloud, the gravity of other stars begins to dominate that of the sun. The inner edge of the main part of the Oort Cloud could be as close as 1,000 AU from our sun. The outer edge is estimated to be around 100,000 AU. NASA's Voyager 1, humankind's most distant spacecraft, is around 125 AU. Scientists believe it entered interstellar space, or the space between stars, on Aug. 25, 2012. Much of interstellar space is actually inside our solar system. It will take about 300 years for Voyager 1 to reach the inner edge of the Oort Cloud and possibly about 30,000 years to fly beyond it. " https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/voyager/multimedia/pia17046.html Or...maybe...ask an astronomer : http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/159-our-solar-system/the-sun/the-solar-system/219-what-is-the-size-of-the-solar-system-intermediate But if you insist, we can leave it up to Chris Jones, who is a technical internet person and a fan of space and websites : https://space-facts.com/about/ Edited June 10, 2018 by et pet old age
beecee Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, et pet said: But if you insist, we can leave it up to Chris Jones, who is a technical internet person and a fan of space and websites : https://space-facts.com/about/ I insist on nothing other then generally the solar system is determined by the terminal shock where the solar wind meets interstellar space...and of course the Oort cloud is still rather hypothetical and not much is known about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere 1 hour ago, et pet said: From your Link : https://www.space.com/22729-voyager-1-spacecraft-interstellar-space.html " Mission scientists have long pegged Voyager 1's departure from the solar system on the observation of three phenomena: a big drop in solar particles, a dramatic jump in galactic cosmic rays and a shift in the orientation of the surrounding magnetic field. Voyager 1 has measured the first two changes, as noted above, but not the third; the magnetic field is stronger than it used to be in the probe's location, but it hasn't changed direction. This key point has led NASA and the mission team to proceed with caution. " From my link if you had of read further...... The duo completed its primary mission in 1989, and then kept on flying toward the edge of the heliosphere, the huge bubble of charged particles and magnetic fields that the sun puffs out around itself. Voyager 1 has now popped free of this bubble into the exotic and unexplored realm of interstellar space, scientists say. They reached this historic conclusion with a little help from the sun. A powerful solar eruption caused electrons in Voyager 1's location to vibrate signficantly between April 9 and May 22 of this year. The probe's plasma wave instrument detected these oscillations, and researchers used the measurements to figure out that Voyager 1's surroundings contained about 1.3 electrons per cubic inch (0.08 electrons per cubic centimeter). That's far higher than the density observed in the outer regions of the heliosphere (roughly 0.03 electrons per cubic inch, or 0.002 electrons per cubic cm) and very much in line with the 1.6 electrons per cubic inch (0.10 electrons per cubic cm) or so expected in interstellar space. The study team wanted to know if Voyager 1 left the solar system sometime before April 2013, so they combed through some of the probe's older data. They found a monthlong period of electron oscillations in October-November 2012 that translated to a density of 0.004 electrons per cubic inch (0.006 electrons per cubic cm). Using these numbers and the amount of ground that Voyager 1 covers — about 325 million miles (520 million kilometers) per year — the researchers calculated that the spacecraft likely left the solar system in August 2012. That time frame matches up well with several other important changes Voyager 1 observed. On Aug. 25, 2012, the probe recorded a 1,000-fold drop in the number of charged solar particles while also measuring a 9 percent increase in fast-moving galactic cosmic rays, which originate beyond the solar system." ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: NB: As I have already informed you, the Oort cloud is still rather speculative and not much is really known about it. Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oort_cloud The Oort cloud(/ɔːrt, ʊərt/),[1]named after the Dutch astronomer Jan Oort, sometimes called the Öpik–Oort cloud,[2] is a theoretical cloud of predominantly icy planetesimals proposed to surround the Sunat distances ranging from 50,000 and 200,000 AU (0.8 and 3.2 ly) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Note "proposed" and "surround" Edited June 10, 2018 by beecee
et pet Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) from NASA : https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/voyager/multimedia/pia17046.html "Informally, the term "solar system" is often used to mean the space out to the last planet. Scientific consensus, however, says the solar system goes out to the Oort Cloud, the source of the comets that swing by our sun on long time scales. Beyond the outer edge of the Oort Cloud, the gravity of other stars begins to dominate that of the sun. The inner edge of the main part of the Oort Cloud could be as close as 1,000 AU from our sun. The outer edge is estimated to be around 100,000 AU. NASA's Voyager 1, humankind's most distant spacecraft, is around 125 AU. Scientists believe it entered interstellar space, or the space between stars, on Aug. 25, 2012. Much of interstellar space is actually inside our solar system. It will take about 300 years for Voyager 1 to reach the inner edge of the Oort Cloud and possibly about 30,000 years to fly beyond it. " https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/voyager/multimedia/pia17046.html Edited June 10, 2018 by et pet
beecee Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 1 minute ago, et pet said: from NASA : https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/voyager/multimedia/pia17046.html "Informally, the term "solar system" is often used to mean the space out to the last planet. Scientific consensus, however, says the solar system goes out to the Oort Cloud, the source of the comets that swing by our sun on long time scales. Beyond the outer edge of the Oort Cloud, the gravity of other stars begins to dominate that of the sun. The inner edge of the main part of the Oort Cloud could be as close as 1,000 AU from our sun. The outer edge is estimated to be around 100,000 AU. NASA's Voyager 1, humankind's most distant spacecraft, is around 125 AU. Scientists believe it entered interstellar space, or the space between stars, on Aug. 25, 2012. Much of interstellar space is actually inside our solar system. It will take about 300 years for Voyager 1 to reach the inner edge of the Oort Cloud and possibly about 30,000 years to fly beyond it. " https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/voyager/multimedia/pia17046.html And again, the Oort cloud is still rather speculative. https://www.space.com/22729-voyager-1-spacecraft-interstellar-space.html
et pet Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, beecee said: And again, the Oort cloud is still rather speculative. https://www.space.com/22729-voyager-1-spacecraft-interstellar-space.html Perhaps you should inform NASA of that. Edited June 10, 2018 by et pet
beecee Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 48 minutes ago, et pet said: Perhaps you should inform NASA of that. I don't believe I need to inform them of anything they don't already know. https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/solar-system/oort-cloud/overview/ 1 PREDICTED PLACE The Oort Cloud is a predicted, but undiscovered region of space. Comments by Ed Stone, Voyager project scientist Edited June 10, 2018 by beecee 1
et pet Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, beecee said: don't believe I need to inform them of anything they don't already know. https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/solar-system/oort-cloud/overview/ 1 PREDICTED PLACE The Oort Cloud is a predicted, but undiscovered region of space. Undiscovered? From the Resources of your Link : https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/system/internal_resources/details/original/443_19_Kuiper_Belt_Revision_2013_tagged_FC_order_FINAL.pdf " In March 2004, a team of astronomers announced the discovery of a planet-like transneptunian object orbiting the Sun at an extreme distance, in one of the coldest known regions of our solar system. The object (2003VB12), since named Sedna for an Inuit goddess who lives at the bottom of the frigid Arctic ocean, approaches the Sun only briefly during its 10,500-year solar orbit. It never enters the Kuiper Belt, whose outer boundary region lies at about 55 AU — instead, Sedna travels in a long, elliptical orbit between 76 and nearly 1,000 AU from the Sun. Since Sedna’s orbit takes it to such an extreme distance, its discoverers have suggested that it is the first observed body belonging to the inner Oort Cloud." So...again, beecee, yes, Yoyagers 1 and 2 are currently in or nearing interstellar space - but neither of those spacecraft, nor either Pioneer 10 or 11 " are probably now leaving the solar system " - as you stated in the 2nd Post of this Thread. Your Posted Video mentions Voyager entering Interstellar Space. But as I have repeatedly Cited, " Scientific consensus, however, says the solar system goes out to the Oort Cloud ." And " Much of interstellar space is actually inside our solar system. " from NASA : https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/voyager/multimedia/pia17046.html "Informally, the term "solar system" is often used to mean the space out to the last planet. Scientific consensus, however, says the solar system goes out to the Oort Cloud, the source of the comets that swing by our sun on long time scales. Beyond the outer edge of the Oort Cloud, the gravity of other stars begins to dominate that of the sun. The inner edge of the main part of the Oort Cloud could be as close as 1,000 AU from our sun. The outer edge is estimated to be around 100,000 AU. NASA's Voyager 1, humankind's most distant spacecraft, is around 125 AU. Scientists believe it entered interstellar space, or the space between stars, on Aug. 25, 2012. Much of interstellar space is actually inside our solar system. It will take about 300 years for Voyager 1 to reach the inner edge of the Oort Cloud and possibly about 30,000 years to fly beyond it. " https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/voyager/multimedia/pia17046.html Or you may accept this Pop-Science : https://www.universetoday.com/104486/how-big-is-our-solar-system/ " But the true size of the Solar System is defined by the reach of its gravity; how far away an object can still be said to orbit the Sun. In the furthest reaches of the Solar System is the Oort Cloud; a theorized cloud of icy objects that could orbit the Sun to a distance of 100,000 astronomical units, or 1.87 light-years away. Although we can’t see the Oort Cloud directly, the long-period comets that drop into the inner Solar System from time to time are thought to originate from this region. The Sun’s gravity dominates local space out to a distance of about 2 light-years, or almost half the distance from the Sun to the nearest star: Proxima Centauri. Believe it or not, any object within this region would probably be orbiting the Sun, and be thought to be a part of the Solar System. " https://www.universetoday.com/104486/how-big-is-our-solar-system/ So, beecee, to quote Fraser Cain : " Believe it or not ". Done. Edited June 10, 2018 by et pet
StringJunky Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 7 hours ago, et pet said: So...again, beecee, yes, Yoyagers 1 and 2 are currently in or nearing interstellar space - but neither of those spacecraft, nor either Pioneer 10 or 11 " are probably now leaving the solar system " - as you stated in the 2nd Post of this Thread. Voyager 1 entered interstellar space in 2012. Quote Voyager 1 is in "Interstellar space" and Voyager 2 is currently in the "Heliosheath" -- the outermost layer of the heliosphere where the solar wind is slowed by the pressure of interstellar gas. https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status/
beecee Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, et pet said: Undiscovered? From the Resources of your Link : https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/system/internal_resources/details/original/443_19_Kuiper_Belt_Revision_2013_tagged_FC_order_FINAL.pdf " In March 2004, a team of astronomers announced the discovery of a planet-like transneptunian object orbiting the Sun at an extreme distance, in one of the coldest known regions of our solar system. Undiscovered? Sure! The discovery of one, two, or half a dozen trans neptunian objects does not constitute a discovery of the Oort cloud as generally envisaged. Quote So...again, beecee, yes, Yoyagers 1 and 2 are currently in or nearing interstellar space - but neither of those spacecraft, nor either Pioneer 10 or 11 " are probably now leaving the solar system " - as you stated in the 2nd Post of this Thread. Again etpet Voyager 1 has been deemed to have entered inter stellar space, THE SPACE BETWEEN STARS as dictated by the terminal bow shock and many sources I have given including Ed Stone a scientist on the project, agree with that census of opinion. Quote "Informally, the term "solar system" is often used to mean the space out to the last planet. Scientific consensus, however, says the solar system goes out to the Oort Cloud, the source of the comets that swing by our sun on long time scales. Beyond the outer edge of the Oort Cloud, the gravity of other stars begins to dominate that of the sun. But the true size of the Solar System is defined by the reach of its gravity The gravity of other stars does/would/can dominate the area proposed for the hypothetical Oort cloud....hypothetically this is why we suppose where our long term comets come from: Remember gravity falls of as the inverse square of the distance between two masses. Do you know what that means? But lets not get too far into pedant. Again, https://www.space.com/22729-voyager-1-spacecraft-interstellar-space.htmlThe study team wanted to know if Voyager 1 left the solar system sometime before April 2013, so they combed through some of the probe's older data. They found a monthlong period of electron oscillations in October-November 2012 that translated to a density of 0.004 electrons per cubic inch (0.006 electrons per cubic cm). Using these numbers and the amount of ground that Voyager 1 covers — about 325 million miles (520 million kilometers) per year — the researchers calculated that the spacecraft likely left the solar system in August 2012. Quote Or you may accept this Pop-Science : https://www.universetoday.com/104486/how-big-is-our-solar-system/ I accept the logical piece I have just given you previously. If you object to those numbers, you need to explain why. If we are going to play my link is bigger then your link all day, we maybe here a long time. Quote So, beecee, to quote Fraser Cain : " Believe it or not ". Done. Fraser of course is a handy source of knowledge, but I tend to accept the scientific methodology in all its glory and the evidence proposed. So done or otherwise, the Voyager 1 probe has certainly left our solar system and is now in interstellar space, or the space between stars.. Edited June 10, 2018 by beecee
beecee Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) Interstellar space, the space between stars, or the interstellar medium is described as follows.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_medium In astronomy, the interstellar medium (ISM) is the matter and radiation that exists in the space between the star systems in a galaxy. This matter includes gas in ionic, atomic, and molecular form, as well as dustand cosmic rays. It fills interstellar space and blends smoothly into the surrounding intergalactic space. The energy that occupies the same volume, in the form of electromagnetic radiation, is the interstellar radiation field. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: NB: We see a reference to the space that exists between the star systems. Of course each star system, which may mean more then one star gravitationally bound, may also contain planetary systems, our own being called the solar system with reference to Sol, the latin word for Sun. Edited June 10, 2018 by beecee
et pet Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, StringJunky said: Voyager 1 entered interstellar space in 2012. 7 hours ago, StringJunky said: 15 hours ago, et pet said: So...again, beecee, yes, Yoyagers 1 and 2 are currently in or nearing interstellar space - but neither of those spacecraft, nor either Pioneer 10 or 11 " are probably now leaving the solar system " - as you stated in the 2nd Post of this Thread. Voyager 1 entered interstellar space in 2012. Quote Voyager 1 is in "Interstellar space" and Voyager 2 is currently in the "Heliosheath" -- the outermost layer of the heliosphere where the solar wind is slowed by the pressure of interstellar gas. https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status/ Yes, StringJunky, as I stated : Voyager 1 = currently in Interstellar space / Voyager 2 = nearing Interstellar space And, as I have Cited before : https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/voyager/multimedia/pia17046.html "Informally, the term "solar system" is often used to mean the space out to the last planet. Scientific consensus, however, says the solar system goes out to the Oort Cloud, the source of the comets that swing by our sun on long time scales. Beyond the outer edge of the Oort Cloud, the gravity of other stars begins to dominate that of the sun. The inner edge of the main part of the Oort Cloud could be as close as 1,000 AU from our sun. The outer edge is estimated to be around 100,000 AU. NASA's Voyager 1, humankind's most distant spacecraft, is around 125 AU. Scientists believe it entered interstellar space, or the space between stars, on Aug. 25, 2012. Much of interstellar space is actually inside our solar system. It will take about 300 years for Voyager 1 to reach the inner edge of the Oort Cloud and possibly about 30,000 years to fly beyond it. " https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/voyager/multimedia/pia17046.html So, yes StringJunky - Voyager 1 entered interstellar space in 2012 and Voyager 2 is nearing interstellar space as well. Scientific consensus, however, says the solar system goes out to the Oort Cloud. So, although having entered interstellar space, or the space between stars, with much of that interstellar space actually being inside our solar system...It will take about 300 years for Voyager 1 to reach the inner edge of the Oort Cloud and possibly about 30,000 years to fly beyond it...and out of the Solar System. Edited June 11, 2018 by et pet
beecee Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, et pet said: So, yes StringJunky - Voyager 1 entered interstellar space in 2012 and Voyager 2 is nearing interstellar space as well. Scientific consensus, however, says the solar system goes out to the Oort Cloud. A so far as yet undiscovered Oort cloud and of course as mentioned in many texts, if it exists in the numbers generally thought that constitutes the Oort cloud, surrounds the solar system, and is at best only lightly gravitationally bound to it. Quote So, although having entered interstellar space, or the space between stars, with much of that interstellar space actually being inside our solar system...It will take about 300 years for Voyager 1 to reach the inner edge of the Oort Cloud and possibly about 30,000 years to fly beyond it...and out of the Solar System. 6 hours ago, beecee said: Interstellar space, the space between stars, or the interstellar medium is described as follows.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_medium In astronomy, the interstellar medium (ISM) is the matter and radiation that exists in the space between the star systems in a galaxy. This matter includes gas in ionic, atomic, and molecular form, as well as dustand cosmic rays. It fills interstellar space and blends smoothly into the surrounding intergalactic space. The energy that occupies the same volume, in the form of electromagnetic radiation, is the interstellar radiation field. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: NB: We see a reference to the space that exists between the star systems. Of course each star system, which may mean more then one star gravitationally bound, may also contain planetary systems, our own being called the solar system with reference to Sol, the latin word for Sun. Let's also look at what is or is not gravitationally bound to our solar system. Firstly of course gravity only falls of as the inverse square of the distance, so we can see the problem in that when discussing what is or is not part of our solar system, particularly with something still rather hypothetical like the Oort cloud. Recently our system, solar system that is, had an interstellar visitor called "Oumuamua"...being reminded of that, I found the following, https://www.theguardian.com/science/across-the-universe/2017/nov/20/interstellar-object-confirmed-to-be-from-another-solar-system some interesting extracts..... Quote (’Oumuamua) and believe it could be one of 10,000 others lurking undetected in our cosmic neighbourhood. so admittedly still not certain. But then this.... Quote The certainty of its interstellar origin comes from an analysis that shows its orbit is almost impossible to achieve from within our solar system. Quote The latest analyses with ground-based telescopes show that ’Oumuamua is quite similar to some comets and asteroids in our own solar system. This is important because it suggests that planetary compositions like ours could be typical across the galaxy. Quote The other group of astronomers, led by David Jewitt, University of California Los Angeles, estimated how many other interstellar visitorslike it there might be in our solar system. Surprisingly, they calculate that another 10,000 could be closer to the sun than the eighth planet, Neptune, which lies 30 times further from the sun than the Earth. Yet these are currently undetected. Quote Each of these interstellar interlopers would be just passing through. They are travelling too fast to be captured by the gravity of the sun. Yet it still takes them about a decade to cross our solar system and disappear back into interstellar space. In other words they can be well inside the solar system, that is inside the terminal shock zone and heliosheath bubble, yet be not part of the solar system. So informally or otherwise, I think its safe to assume that Voyager is in interstellar space [ie, the space between stars] and has exited our solar system as generally accepted without hypotheticals. Edited June 11, 2018 by beecee
beecee Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 (edited) Also found this.....http://binaryresearchinstitute.com/bri/interstellar-space-beyond-our-solar-system-stranger-than-expected/ Our heliosphere is our home in the galaxy, and understanding how it protects us as it interacts with local interstellar material is important as we plan future space travel beyond Earth and think about the conditions surrounding our Solar System in the distant past and future. Our heliosphere is like a protective cocoon being inflated in the interstellar medium by the Sun’s million mph solar wind. As our Sun orbits the center of the galaxy every 225 million years, it bobs in and out of the disk of the galaxy like a horse on a merry–go–round. As it does this, it passes through areas of the interstellar medium that are more and less dense, causing the heliosphere to change in shape and size. Denser areas can compress the heliosphere, while less dense regions allow the bubble to expand. In addition, the strength of the solar wind varies over the Sun’s cycle, “breathing” periodically, also contributing to this.Understanding how all of these things affect the heliosphere is important so that we can better understand how the heliosphere protects us. It is a crucial layer of protection against dangerous cosmic rays that are harmful to living things. As cosmic rays approach the heliosphere, they are deflected, and the majority of them are not able to pass into the inner Solar System. Fortunately, our Earth’s magnetic field is usually able to shield life on Earth from the remaining cosmic rays.However, astronauts on deep space missions cannot bring the Earth’s protection with them. We must also consider how the heliosphere will protect us in the distant future or how it did protect us in the past. Understanding the heliosphere and how it protects us is part of understanding our home in the galaxy. To access the Astrophysical Journal Supplement papers, please visit the journal website. The IBEX papers and an accompanying editorial will be published online on January 31. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: also https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ibex/news/nobowshock.html The heliosphere surrounding our solar system is buffeted by strong magnetic fields, shown here as the black, diagonal, upward-pointing arrows. The heliosphere and the interstellar material of the local cloud pass by each other at a speed of 52,000 miles per hour, as shown by the blue arrow. https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ibex/news-listing/index.html Edited June 11, 2018 by beecee
et pet Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 On 6/10/2018 at 11:55 PM, beecee said: A so far as yet undiscovered Oort cloud and of course as mentioned in many texts, if it exists in the numbers generally thought that constitutes the Oort cloud, surrounds the solar system, and is at best only lightly gravitationally bound to it. Let's also look at what is or is not gravitationally bound to our solar system. Firstly of course gravity only falls of as the inverse square of the distance, so we can see the problem in that when discussing what is or is not part of our solar system, particularly with something still rather hypothetical like the Oort cloud. Recently our system, solar system that is, had an interstellar visitor called "Oumuamua"...being reminded of that, I found the following, https://www.theguardian.com/science/across-the-universe/2017/nov/20/interstellar-object-confirmed-to-be-from-another-solar-system some interesting extracts..... so admittedly still not certain. But then this.... In other words they can be well inside the solar system, that is inside the terminal shock zone and heliosheath bubble, yet be not part of the solar system. So informally or otherwise, I think its safe to assume that Voyager is in interstellar space [ie, the space between stars] and has exited our solar system as generally accepted without hypotheticals. From what you have Posted, it seems that you have not taken any College courses in Cosmology or Astronomy If you care to enlighten yourself on the subject, you can read some at the following Links : http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/astro/oumuamua.html ; https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/476/3/3031/4909830 ; http://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-news/update-on-interstellar-object-oumuamua/ . Now, bee cee, since you seem to lend quite a bit of credence to wikipedia, and since you brought up ʻOumuamua, you might be able to accept the following - but that is completely up to you : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ʻOumuamua#cite_note-52 " Trajectory ʻOumuamua is the first known interstellar object to visit the Solar System and it appears to come from roughly the direction of the star Vega in the constellation Lyra.[27][28][33][34] The incoming direction of motion of ʻOumuamua is 6° from the solar apex (the direction of the Sun's movement relative to local stars), which is the most likely direction for approaches from objects outside the Solar System.[33][35] On 26 October, two precovery observations from the Catalina Sky Survey were found dated 14 and 17 October.[36][25] A two-week observation arc had verified a strongly hyperbolic trajectory.[6][22] It has a hyperbolic excess velocity (velocity at infinity, {\displaystyle v_{\infty }\!}) of 26.33 km/s (58,900 mph), its speed relative to the Sun when in interstellar space.[n 3] By mid November, astronomers were certain that it was an interstellar object.[38] Based on observations spanning 34 days, ʻOumuamua's orbital eccentricity is 1.20, the highest ever observed.[39][7]An eccentricity above 1.0 means an object exceeds the Sun's escape velocity, is not bound to the Solar System, and may escape to interstellar space. While an eccentricity slightly above 1.0 can be obtained by encounters with planets, as happened with the previous record holder C/1980 E1,[39][40][n 5]ʻOumuamua's eccentricity is so high it could not have been obtained through an encounter with any of the Sun's planets, known or unknown. Even undiscovered planets, if any exist, could not account for ʻOumuamua's trajectory – any undiscovered planet must be far from the Sun and hence moving slowly according to Kepler's laws of planetary motion. Encounters with such a planet could not boost ʻOumuamua's speed to the observed value,[41] and therefore ʻOumuamua can only be of interstellar origin.[42] ʻOumuamua entered the Solar System from above the plane of the ecliptic. The pull of the Sun's gravity caused it to speed up until it reached its maximum speed of 87.71 km/s (196,200 mph) as it passed below the ecliptic on 6 September and made a sharp turn upward at its closest approach to the Sun (perihelion) on 9 September at a distance of 0.255 AU (38,100,000 km; 23,700,000 mi) from the Sun, i.e., about 17% closer than Mercury's closest approach to the Sun.[43][7][n 6] The object is now heading away from the Sun (towards Pegasus) at an angle of 66° from the direction of its approach.[n 7] On the outward leg of its journey through the Solar System, ʻOumuamua passed below the orbit of Earth on 14 October at a distance of approximately 0.1616 AU (24,180,000 km; 15,020,000 mi) from Earth, and went back above the ecliptic on 16 October and passed above the orbit of Mars on 1 November.[43][33][6] It will pass above Jupiter's orbit in May 2018, Saturn's orbit in January 2019, and Neptune's orbit in 2022.[43] As it leaves the Solar System it will be approximately right ascension (RA) 23h51m and declination +24°45', in Pegasus.[7] It will continue to slow down until it reaches a speed of 26.33 km/s relative to the Sun, the same speed it had before its approach to the Solar System.[7] It will take the object roughly 20,000 years to leave the Solar System completely.[n 8] " So, bee cee, @ 26.33 kms , it will travel approximately 831 million kilometers per year - correct ? So, lets round that down to 830 Million Kilometers per year - okay ? Therefore, in 20,000 years it will travel roughly 16618232160000 Kilometers - correct ? An AU is ~ 150,000,000 Kilometers - So, in 20,00 years it will be out to, at least ~ 110,788 AU's from the Sun - correct ? So, bee cee, ~130,000 astronomical units, or ~19 trillion kilometers is roughly equivalent to 2 light-years Distance - correct ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ʻOumuamua#cite_note-52 -3
beecee Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, et pet said: From what you have Posted, it seems that you have not taken any College courses in Cosmology or Astronomy No I havn't and that's rather common knowledge. And knowing you from elsewhere, you also most certainly have not. As yet you have failed to show why any hypothetical assembly such as the Oort cloud can be classed as part of the solar system. And while we are at it, in your first post on this thread you rattle off many figures which I doubt you just keep in your head...Perhaps a reference would have been nice? [No I don't doubt them, but honesty as to how you acquired them would be appreciated] as follows....... On 6/10/2018 at 10:57 AM, et pet said: . Pioneer 1 only reached about 113,000 kilometers in altitude, and fell back to Earth within 2 days. Pioneer 2 reached less than 1,500 kilometers and fell back to earth within 6 or 7 hours after launch. Nero, Pioneer 10 is currently ~120-122 AU's from the Sun. It is traveling at about 2 1/2 AU's per year. Be that as it may, I am pretty certain taking into account the hypothetical nature of the Oort cloud, that the terminal shock bow and heliosheath where the solar wind is turned back and of course where "particle numbers" dramatically fall off, as I referenced earlier is correct, informally or otherwise. You take it easy now OK? 1 hour ago, et pet said: Now, bee cee, since you seem to lend quite a bit of credence to wikipedia, and since you brought up ʻOumuamua, you might be able to accept the following - but that is completely up to you : I believe I have given a quick outlook and description of Oumuamua according to the data we have, so really, other then your usual pathetic pedant, I don't really believe I need accept anything that is not generally accepted anyway. Since the reason I have raised Oumuamua, has completely escaped you, I will enlighten...It shows and mentions that interstellar lopers, that are not part of our solar system, can and are identified on the odd occasion, and will have deemed to leave the solar system, when it leaves the heliosphere and is beyond the terminal shock zone, not considering the hypothetical Oort cloud of course. Edited June 14, 2018 by beecee
beecee Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ibex/news-listing/index.html As Solar Wind Blows, Our Heliosphere Balloons What happens when the solar wind suddenly starts to blow significantly harder? According to two recent studies, the boundaries of our entire solar system balloon outward — and an analysis of particles rebounding off of its edges will reveal its new shape. """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
et pet Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, beecee said: No I havn't and that's rather common knowledge. And knowing you from elsewhere, you also most certainly have not. As yet you have failed to show why any hypothetical assembly such as the Oort cloud can be classed as part of the solar system. And while we are at it, in your first post on this thread you rattle off many figures which I doubt you just keep in your head...Perhaps a reference would have been nice? Be that as it may, I am pretty certain taking into account the hypothetical nature of the Oort cloud, that the terminal shock bow and heliosheath where the solar wind is turned back and of course where "particle numbers" dramatically fall off, as I referenced earlier is correct, informally or otherwise. You take it easy now OK? I believe I have given a quick outlook and description of Oumuamua according to the data we have, so really, other then your usual pathetic pedant, I don't really believe I need accept anything that is not generally accepted anyway. Since the reason I have raised Oumuamua, has completely escaped you, I will enlighten...It shows and mentions that interstellar lopers, that are not part of our solar system, can and are identified on the odd occasion. so, you "know" me from "elsewhere" ? Where do you think that know me from? In every Post that I referred to the Oort Cloud, I provided the supporting Link(s). BTW, the edges of the Solar System is generally thought to be where the Gravitational attraction of the Sun gives way to the Gravitational influence of objects outside of the solar system : http://www.astronomytrek.com/top-10-facts-about-the-solar-system/ " 3: Solar System 2 Light-years Across The size of a solar system is determined by how far its sun’s gravity overpowers other objects in the region, which in the case of the Sun extends to the Oort Cloud, a reservoir of cometary material located between 5,000 and 50,000 AU away. That boundary would give the solar system a diameter of around 2 light-years across. " http://www.astronomytrek.com/top-10-facts-about-the-solar-system/ There is also this : https://www.noao.edu/education/peppercorn/pcmain.html " Greater Distances The solar system does not really end with Pluto. Besides the planets, there is a thin haze of dust (some of it bunched into comets). Any of this dust that is nearer to the Sun than to any other star may be in the gravitational hold of the Sun and so counts as part of the solar system. So the outermost of such dust may be half way to the nearest star." https://www.noao.edu/education/peppercorn/pcmain.html And this : https://theplanets.org/solar-system/ " The size of the Solar System Though it is common for most people to believe that the edge of the Solar System is that of Pluto’s orbit, this is far from the truth. Over the course of the the 20th century scientists not only hypothesized the size of the Solar System extends to almost 2 light years – that’s 125,000 times the distance from the Sun to the Earth – but also that there are many objects beyond Pluto. Scientist now believe that there are two major regions beyond Pluto. The first is the Kuiper Belt, a region of asteroids similar to the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, and the Oort Cloud, a spherical region that contains numerous comets. https://theplanets.org/solar-system/ And : http://earthsky.org/space/ten-things-you-may-not-know-about-the-solar-system " 5. The edge of the solar system is 1,000 times farther away than Pluto. You might still think of the solar system as extending out to the orbit of the much-loved dwarf planet Pluto. Today we don’t even consider Pluto a full-fledged planet, but the impression remains. Still, we have discovered numerous objects orbiting the sun that are considerably farther than Pluto. These are Trans-Neptunian Objects (TNOs) or Kuiper Belt Objects (KBOs). The Kuiper Belt, the first of the sun’s two reservoirs of cometary material, is thought to extend to 50 or 60 astronomical units (AU, or the average distance of the Earth from the sun). An even farther part of the solar system, the huge but tenuous Oort comet cloud, may extend to 50,000 AU from the sun, or about half a light-year – more than 1,000 times farther than Pluto. " http://earthsky.org/space/ten-things-you-may-not-know-about-the-solar-system One from your oft Cited wikipedia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_System " The point at which the Solar System ends and interstellar space begins is not precisely defined because its outer boundaries are shaped by two separate forces: the solar wind and the Sun's gravity. The limit of the solar wind's influence is roughly four times Pluto's distance from the Sun; this heliopause, the outer boundary of the heliosphere, is considered the beginning of the interstellar medium.[57] The Sun's Hill sphere, the effective range of its gravitational dominance, is thought to extend up to a thousand times farther and encompasses the theorized Oort cloud. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_System And, to repeat just in case you might again miss it : http://www.astronomytrek.com/top-10-facts-about-the-solar-system/ " 3: Solar System 2 Light-years Across The size of a solar system is determined by how far its sun’s gravity overpowers other objects in the region, which in the case of the Sun extends to the Oort Cloud, a reservoir of cometary material located between 5,000 and 50,000 AU away. That boundary would give the solar system a diameter of around 2 light-years across. " And yes, bee cee, I stated some figures in my first Post in this thread. I attribute that ability to, at the very least, 2 simple things : 1. as a young man coming of age in the 1950's, I was extremely interested in Science, Astronomy, Cosmology and Spaceflight!!! ; and 2., I did not waste any of my time at Caltech. Do you Doubt any of the figures I posted in my first Post in this Thread, bee cee? Do you wish to challenge any of them? Speaking of providing references, perhaps a reference would have been nice to the statement you made in your first Post in this Thread : "Are you thinking of Pioneers 10 and 11? These were launched in the seventies and explored the out solar system and both are probably now leaving the solar system along with the two Voyagers." Again, bee cee, where exactly is this "elsewhere" that you know me from? Also, bee cee, aren't attacks ad hominem against this forums rules? Edited June 14, 2018 by et pet addition
koti Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 That purple bold font is horrible, could you make it yellow so we can see less?
beecee Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, et pet said: so, you "know" me from "elsewhere" ? Where do you think that know me from? This forum is not interested in your obsession with me either here or anywhere else. But yes, you are certainly an obsessive fan of mine from another forum...perhaps if we review all of your 37 posts on this forum and find out if any of those posts were not in reference to myself or otherwise with regards to myself. Quote In every Post that I referred to the Oort Cloud, I provided the supporting Link(s). BTW, the edges of the Solar System is generally thought to be where the Gravitational attraction of the Sun gives way to the Gravitational influence of objects outside of the solar system : And alternatively I have given many links referring to the terminal shock and associated heliosphere as the edge of the solar system, and of course the hypothetical nature of the Oort cloud., informal or otherwise. Quote There is also this : https://www.noao.edu/education/peppercorn/pcmain.html " Greater Distances The solar system does not really end with Pluto. Besides the planets, there is a thin haze of dust (some of it bunched into comets). Any of this dust that is nearer to the Sun than to any other star may be in the gravitational hold of the Sun and so counts as part of the solar system. So the outermost of such dust may be half way to the nearest star." https://www.noao.edu/education/peppercorn/pcmain.html The Oort cloud is hypothetical despite you avoiding that fact. Quote And yes, bee cee, I stated some figures in my first Post in this thread. I attribute that ability to, at the very least, 2 simple things : 1. as a young man coming of age in the 1950's, I was extremely interested in Science, Astronomy, Cosmology and Spaceflight!!! ; and 2., I did not waste any of my time at Caltech. I was also a teenager in the 50's with a great interest in astronomy etc and I still doubt you remembering the figures I mentioned....I mean Pioner's 1 and 2...Give us a break! Quote Do you Doubt any of the figures I posted in my first Post in this Thread, bee cee? Do you wish to challenge any of them? Of course not, since as I believe you probably checked prior to your vendetta...plus of course I did say .... 3 hours ago, beecee said: And while we are at it, in your first post on this thread you rattle off many figures which I doubt you just keep in your head...Perhaps a reference would have been nice? [No I don't doubt them, but honesty as to how you acquired them would be appreciated] as follows....... Quote Also, bee cee, aren't attacks ad hominem against this forums rules? I believe that a better "understanding" of your agenda would be gauged in checking out your 37 posts and finding out how many of them are not in someway directed in my direction. On 6/10/2018 at 10:12 PM, et pet said: Done. https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/voyager-1-helps-solve-interstellar-medium-mystery Voyager 1 Helps Solve Interstellar Medium Mystery NASA's Voyager 1 spacecraft made history in 2012 by entering interstellar space, leaving the planets and the solar wind behind. But observations from the pioneering probe were puzzling with regard to the magnetic field around it, as they differed from what scientists derived from observations by other spacecraft. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" As I also previously Interstellar space, the space between stars, or the interstellar medium is described as follows.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_medium In astronomy, the interstellar medium (ISM) is the matter and radiation that exists in the space between the star systems in a galaxy. This matter includes gas in ionic, atomic, and molecular form, as well as dustand cosmic rays. It fills interstellar space and blends smoothly into the surrounding intergalactic space. The energy that occupies the same volume, in the form of electromagnetic radiation, is the interstellar radiation field. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: NB: We see a reference to the space that exists between the star systems. Of course each star system, which may mean more then one star gravitationally bound, may also contain planetary systems, our own being called the solar system with reference to Sol, the latin word for Sun. Again, https://www.space.com/22729-voyager-1-spacecraft-interstellar-space.htmlThe study team wanted to know if Voyager 1 left the solar system sometime before April 2013, so they combed through some of the probe's older data. They found a monthlong period of electron oscillations in October-November 2012 that translated to a density of 0.004 electrons per cubic inch (0.006 electrons per cubic cm). Using these numbers and the amount of ground that Voyager 1 covers — about 325 million miles (520 million kilometers) per year — the researchers calculated that the spacecraft likely left the solar system in August 2012. LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/heo/scan/images/history/August2012_2.html Voyager 1 is the first man-made object to leave our solar system and pass into interstellar space. Scientists confirmed this finding a year later after studying Voyager’s data, which showed clear changes in the plasma or ionized gas right outside of the solar bubble. Last Updated: Aug. 7, 2017 Editor: Thuy Mai Edited June 15, 2018 by beecee
swansont Posted June 15, 2018 Posted June 15, 2018 11 hours ago, et pet said: so, you "know" me from "elsewhere" ? Where do you think that know me from? ... Again, bee cee, where exactly is this "elsewhere" that you know me from? Quote Also, bee cee, aren't attacks ad hominem against this forums rules? ! Moderator Note There have been no ad hominem attacks (perhaps you should look up what that actually means), but I caution you that when you invite personal discussion, you should not complain if people engage in it. But this is all off-topic, so everyone can knock it off. The discussion before us is the location of various spacecraft. Stick to that.
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