Einstein was a racist?

[Endercreeper01]

10 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Mr. Creeper, the following question is a genuine inquiry: Why are you still here? This is a 'science' discussion forum and you clearly have no intention to discuss, and your definition of science is... Well, singular, and every one of your sermons has not only been rejected but utterly trounced 

I would respond, but I'm not supposed to go off topic...

46 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

This conclusion is not supported by anything Einstein believed. It is your own unfortunate world view. Einstein publicly spoke out against racism for decades. You are taking a few comments not meant for public consumption and running wild with them. 

 

It would be off topic to discuss my world view here. However, I will say that Einstein was stereotyping different groups of people in his diary in a way that could be interpreted as racist by some.

[Ten oz]

4 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

It would be off topic to discuss my world view here. However, I will say that Einstein was stereotyping different groups of people in his diary in a way that could be interpreted as racist by some.

Which in no way shape or form supports your conclusion that is some cases racist is good. Rather you appear to  loosely being saying that if someone as respected as Einstein did it than it must be good. If new evidence came to light that Einstein once murdered someone that would mean murder was okay. Merely, inaccurately,  associating Einstein's name with your thoughts about about racism doesn't support those thoughts. 

[dimreepr]

14 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

I would respond, but I'm not supposed to go off topic..

Given your posting history, I'd say that's an excuse rather than a reason, but you can always PM your response.

[Endercreeper01]

10 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Which in no way shape or form supports your conclusion that is some cases racist is good. Rather you appear to  loosely being saying that if someone as respected as Einstein did it than it must be good. If new evidence came to light that Einstein once murdered someone that would mean murder was okay. Merely, inaccurately,  associating Einstein's name with your thoughts about about racism doesn't support those thoughts. 

It's supposed to show that Einstein was honest about racial differences and acknowledged them instead of pretending they don't exist. 

[beecee]

23 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

I was making a general statement about how racism is treated. Racism is treated badly in some instances where it shouldn't be considered bad.

No you were simply pushing your own barrow, and justifying your own questionable "qualities" : Using Einstein to push that barrow on a science forum, therefor was your modus operandi.

No I'm sure Einstein was not racist, rather simply a product of his times and the severe lack of political correctness.

3 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

t's supposed to show that Einstein was honest about racial differences and acknowledged them instead of pretending they don't exist. 

And as another just said, and taking into account your general anti science, and extreme anti equality persona, going on your posts, why do you come here? Is this just another example of another crusade against those evil atheists/agnostics and equal opportunity members that generally are part of a science forum?.

Perhaps you need to realize and accept that if it wasn't for science and the scientific methodology, you would still be swinging in the trees, along with yours [and mine] cousins.

Edited June 15, 2018 by beecee

[Sensei]

3 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

It's supposed to show that Einstein was honest about racial differences and acknowledged them instead of pretending they don't exist. 

What has been brought by newspapers mentioned in the OP, are purely economic differences, not racial differences..

Poor people don't send their children to schools (especially in old times when there was no obligatory and free primary schools for everybody!).. So somebody trying to talk with them might get incorrect impression they are not bright. But it is result of their poorness, not racial differences.

 

[Endercreeper01]

2 hours ago, beecee said:

No you were simply pushing your own barrow, and justifying your own questionable "qualities" : Using Einstein to push that barrow on a science forum, therefor was your modus operandi.

No I'm sure Einstein was not racist, rather simply a product of his times and the severe lack of political correctness.

And as another just said, and taking into account your general anti science, and extreme anti equality persona, going on your posts, why do you come here? Is this just another example of another crusade against those evil atheists/agnostics and equal opportunity members that generally are part of a science forum?.

Perhaps you need to realize and accept that if it wasn't for science and the scientific methodology, you would still be swinging in the trees, along with yours [and mine] cousins.

I didn't say that Einstein was racist, I said that he acknowledged racial differences.

And I'm not anti science... 

[beecee]

2 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

I didn't say that Einstein was racist, I said that he acknowledged racial differences.

You certainly have handled your words carefully, but I do see the following as evidence of intent. 

Quote

I was making a general statement about how racism is treated. Racism is treated badly in some instances where it shouldn't be considered bad.

Quote

And I'm not anti science...

I also see your many threads "imposing" some higher power, as ignoring what the scientific method entails, and totally unscientific to boot.

[Endercreeper01]

56 minutes ago, beecee said:

You certainly have handled your words carefully, but I do see the following as evidence of intent. 

I also see your many threads "imposing" some higher power, as ignoring what the scientific method entails, and totally unscientific to boot.

When I said racism, what I was really trying to say was racial differences.

And in those instances I was being philosophical rather than scientific.

[Ten oz]

10 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

It's supposed to show that Einstein was honest about racial differences and acknowledged them instead of pretending they don't exist. 

I think you are grossly misinterpreting what he wrote and also completely ignoring the years of he spent advocating against racism.  

[DrP]

23 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

Pointing out differences in culture is still pointing out differences between groups of people. Differences pointed out between the races should be treated the same way as differences pointed out between cultures.

Why? Everyone disagrees with you. Pointing out the difference in perceived intelligence between 500 council estate born labourers and 500 city born stock brokers is a cultural difference not a racial one. Are the stock brokers more intelligent because they can do better on an IQ test and wear nice suits? There is no racial difference between them - just social and economic. Are the labourers superior because they are physically stronger?  It is about their upbringing and back ground and life experiences and privilege. Take any of the labourers and give them the same upbringing as the toffs and they would look. sound and behave the same.

Any actual racial difference are so small they are negligible - but you get people, who get described as racists, that try to take these minute differences and try to justify their supremacy fantasies and political agendas.

 

Did you read any of Sensei's posts? Looks like you ignored them or were just blind to them - many have said the same thing.

[Endercreeper01]

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

I think you are grossly misinterpreting what he wrote and also completely ignoring the years of he spent advocating against racism.  

Acknowledging racial differences doesn't have to be considered racism or bad in this case. Einstein can still acknowledge racial differences while not being a racist.

1 hour ago, DrP said:

Why? Everyone disagrees with you. Pointing out the difference in perceived intelligence between 500 council estate born labourers and 500 city born stock brokers is a cultural difference not a racial one. Are the stock brokers more intelligent because they can do better on an IQ test and wear nice suits? There is no racial difference between them - just social and economic. Are the labourers superior because they are physically stronger?  It is about their upbringing and back ground and life experiences and privilege. Take any of the labourers and give them the same upbringing as the toffs and they would look. sound and behave the same.

Any actual racial difference are so small they are negligible - but you get people, who get described as racists, that try to take these minute differences and try to justify their supremacy fantasies and political agendas.

 

Did you read any of Sensei's posts? Looks like you ignored them or were just blind to them - many have said the same thing.

There are differences between groups of people that can be acknowledged in the way that Einstein has. 

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, DrP said:

 Take any of the labourers and give them the same upbringing as the toffs and they would look. sound and behave the same.

You aren't a "toff" then, what?  

[koti]

1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

You aren't a "toff" then, what?  

Oh boy...I’m so not „toff” that I just learned a new word. 

[iNow]

7 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

I'm not anti science... 

In which case, you should acknowledge what science has to say about the concept of race and update your thinking accordingly.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/race-genetics-science-africa/

[dimreepr]

16 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

Acknowledging racial differences doesn't have to be considered racism or bad in this case. Einstein can still acknowledge racial differences while not being a racist.

Indeed, because Einstein didn't assume superiority as in DrPs example, IOW he had no agenda; so please stop using the great man as a lever to elevate your, obvious, agenda (you are not worthy).

[Ten oz]

45 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

cknowledging racial differences doesn't have to be considered racism or bad in this case. Einstein can still acknowledge racial differences while not being a racist.

Are people in China a different race than people in Japan? The observations weren't racial. Additionally Einstein died a few decades after writing those down. You and I have no idea if he came to feel more strongly or regretful about those ideas. I suspect regretful based on the work he did opposing racism and discrimination at large around the world. 

[StringJunky]

51 minutes ago, koti said:

Oh boy...I’m so not „toff” that I just learned a new word. 

Etymology. The word "toff" is thought to come from the word "tuft", which was a gold tassel worn by titled undergraduates at the University of Oxford or the University of Cambridge. The Anglo-Saxon word "toforan" has a meaning of "superiority"._Wiki

[CharonY]

I am a bit surprised that quite a few want to put Einstein on pedestal. While he undoubtedly had progressive views he was also a child of his time. As such I find it hardly surprising to find misogynist and racist streaks in personal thoughts. Even today stereotypes are still prevalent and colour ones opinion often in a subversive way.

Why should a brilliant physicist be immune to this?

Edited June 15, 2018 by CharonY

[Ten oz]

26 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I am a bit surprised that quite a few want to put Einstein on pedestal. While he undoubtedly had progressive views he was also a child of his time. As such I find it hardly surprising to find misogynist and racist streaks in personal thoughts. Even today stereotypes are still prevalent and colour ones opinion often in a subversive way.

Why should a brilliant physicist be immune to this?

I don't view Einstein as being on a pedestal. Rather I don't think it is fair to anyone to use their non-contemporary thoughts against them. As an ignorant 12yr old boy I once wrote a paper outlining the type of things I would do if I were President. My paper included absolutely disgusting things like arrest and execute all homosexuals. Something I absolutely do not agree with today. Granted Einstein wasn't 12yrs old in the 1920's but he didn't die until 1955 so who knows what his final views on such matters were. Einstein's public contributions were progressive for there time and more contemporary to who he was at his death than the remarks this thread is about.

****non contemporary thoughts with caveats. Obviously is Einstein sought to murder people in China or something all bets are off.  

Edited June 15, 2018 by Ten oz
asterisk

[Endercreeper01]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, because Einstein didn't assume superiority as in DrPs example, IOW he had no agenda; so please stop using the great man as a lever to elevate your, obvious, agenda (you are not worthy).

Einstein was willing to acknowledge racial or ethnic differences. Not that I'm saying that there was anything wrong with his ideas.

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Are people in China a different race than people in Japan? The observations weren't racial. Additionally Einstein died a few decades after writing those down. You and I have no idea if he came to feel more strongly or regretful about those ideas. I suspect regretful based on the work he did opposing racism and discrimination at large around the world. 

They can be considered a different ethnicity.

I'm not claiming that there was anything wrong with his ideas, only that he was wiling to acknowledge differences between ethnicity. 

He can still acknowledge differences between races or ethnicity while being against racism. There's nothing wrong with that.

16 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I am a bit surprised that quite a few want to put Einstein on pedestal. While he undoubtedly had progressive views he was also a child of his time. As such I find it hardly surprising to find misogynist and racist streaks in personal thoughts. Even today stereotypes are still prevalent and colour ones opinion often in a subversive way.

Why should a brilliant physicist be immune to this?

I would agree with you if assuming that there was anything wrong with his ideas. Otherwise I'm not so sure if there is really anything wrong if he had such views. It could even be considered to be a good thing, as he was being honest in acknowledging differences between ethnicity.

Even if it was wrong, that shouldn't mean that we view him any differently.

[Ten oz]

6 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

I'm not claiming that there was anything wrong with his ideas, only that he was wiling to acknowledge differences between ethnicity. 

Willing to acknowledge them in the 1920's in a non-public journal. You have no idea how he would have reflected on those comments had you asked him about them in the 30's, 40's, or 50's. I think many things that after more thought I conclude are wrong. 

[Endercreeper01]

2 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Willing to acknowledge them in the 1920's in a non-public journal. You have no idea how he would have reflected on those comments had you asked him about them in the 30's, 40's, or 50's. I think many things that after more thought I conclude are wrong. 

Not that there is anything wrong with his ideas, only that they were honest thoughts about the observations that he made.

[Ten oz]

4 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

Not that there is anything wrong with his ideas, only that they were honest thoughts about the observations that he made.

You are taking 30 year old (to his own death) remarks and adding your own context and then using that to argue that since Einstein was a bigot being a bigot is okay. It is a rather ridiculous position. Einstein having a negative view of people squatting when they relieve themselves tells you nothing about how Einstein felt about race, ethnicity, nationality, or etc. Moreover the comments were ugly and in no way shape or form support the notion that being racist is okay. 

[Phi for All]

To me, this is like saying, "Einstein was a smoker, so that proves that even brilliant people can do harmful things, so why should we all be persecuted for smoking?" It's applying a modern, stricter set of criteria to deleterious behavior from the past, in order to justify it today. It's a fallacious argument.