Einstein was a racist?

[Endercreeper01]

39 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

You are taking 30 year old (to his own death) remarks and adding your own context and then using that to argue that since Einstein was a bigot being a bigot is okay. It is a rather ridiculous position. Einstein having a negative view of people squatting when they relieve themselves tells you nothing about how Einstein felt about race, ethnicity, nationality, or etc. Moreover the comments were ugly and in no way shape or form support the notion that being racist is okay. 

It shows how he would not ignore racial or ethnic differences and accept them rather than pretending they don't exist. Being bigoted or racist is not the same thing as acknowledging racial differences.

His personal thoughts show much more about his true opinion than does his outward appearance to the world of being against racism.

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, Endercreeper01 said:

It shows how he would not ignore racial or ethnic differences and accept them rather than pretending they don't exist. Being bigoted or racist is not the same thing as acknowledging racial differences.

His personal thoughts show much more about his true opinion than does his outward appearance to the world of being against racism.

You have already made in clear you think racism is okay in some circumstances. You are attempting to drag Einstein in as some sort of circumstantial evidence supporting your own world view.

On 6/13/2018 at 11:49 PM, Endercreeper01 said:

I was making a general statement about how racism is treated. Racism is treated badly in some instances where it shouldn't be considered bad.

Einstein publicly spoke out against racism and supported the Civil Rights movement upon moving to the U.S.. You are ignoring his years of public activism which do not fit with your narrative in trade for a few remarks list on a non-publish journal. 

As for whether or not it is right to point out cultural differences in ethnicity  that comes down to the definitions one is using, the accuracy of the observation, and conclusions one is attempting. If I say people in England drink a more tea than people in Mexico that is an accurate observational difference in cultures. If I then conflated ethnicity with race and stated that white people like tea more than Hispanic people  I would just be just talking nonsense out my rear end.  Likewise saying people in the U.S., wealthiest country in the world, do not follow Futbal with the same level of interest as do people in Brazil is an accurate observation. Continuing on use that observation to call Futbal a 3rd world sport would be  ignorant. 

Edited June 15, 2018 by Ten oz

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

I don't view Einstein as being on a pedestal. Rather I don't think it is fair to anyone to use their non-contemporary thoughts against them. As an ignorant 12yr old boy I once wrote a paper outlining the type of things I would do if I were President. My paper included absolutely disgusting things like arrest and execute all homosexuals. Something I absolutely do not agree with today. Granted Einstein wasn't 12yrs old in the 1920's but he didn't die until 1955 so who knows what his final views on such matters were. Einstein's public contributions were progressive for there time and more contemporary to who he was at his death than the remarks this thread is about.

****non contemporary thoughts with caveats. Obviously is Einstein sought to murder people in China or something all bets are off.  

I am not referring to criticizing that he held those views. He was, as I said a child of his time. Rather some posters seemed to imply that his view are not racially coloured  at all, which would be very surprising (even today).

[Endercreeper01]

7 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

You have already made in clear you think racism is okay in some circumstances. You are attempting to drag Einstein in as some sort of circumstantial evidence supporting your own world view.

Einstein publicly spoke out against racism and supported the Civil Rights movement upon moving to the U.S.. You are ignoring his years of public activism which do not fit with your narrative in trade for a few remarks list on a non-publish journal. 

As for whether or not it is right to point out cultural differences in ethnicity  that comes down to the definitions one is using, the accuracy of the observation, and conclusions one is attempting. If I say people in England drink a more tea than people in Mexico that is an accurate observational difference in cultures. If I then conflated ethnicity with race and stated that white people like tea more than Hispanic people  I would just be just talking nonsense out my rear end.  Likewise saying people in the U.S., wealthiest country in the world, do not follow Futbal with the same level of interest as do people in Brazil is an accurate observation. Continuing on use that observation to call Futbal a 3rd world sport would be  ignorant. 

The thoughts that he writes down in his journal would be a much more accurate reflection of his true opinion, rather than the face he presents to the public.

Speaking out a few times against does not necessarily prevent one from having natural racist tendencies in the past.

Differences in ethnicity should be acknowledged as long as they are true. 

[Ten oz]

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

I am not referring to criticizing that he held those views. He was, as I said a child of his time. Rather some posters seemed to imply that his view are not racially coloured  at all, which would be very surprising (even today).

Considering what an out spoken critic he was with regards to racism I think more context for the comments is required. We are talking about someone who actively gave speeches, interviews, participated ideas for books, and authored papers. He views, at least publicly, on the issue are known. In lieu of that I would give Einstein the benefit of doubt because life's work is more relevant than off color remarks never meant for consumption. As an example I love my wife and hold a very high opinion of her intellectually. That isn't to say that as an emotional creature I have never slandered her out of temporary bought of jealously, impatience, or general moodiness. Anyone attempt to use those moments to extrapolate that I didn't love my wife or don't hold a high opinion of her would simply be wrong. We all do and say stupid things we know, often immediately, are wrong. I have no way of knowing if those were Einsteins true feelings in those remarks or just but his life's work implies he was a tolerate person relative to his peers. 

1 minute ago, Endercreeper01 said:

The thoughts that he writes down in his journal would be a much more accurate reflection of his true opinion, rather than the face he presents to the public.

Speaking out a few times against does not necessarily prevent one from having natural racist tendencies in the past.

Differences in ethnicity should be acknowledged as long as they are true. 

You do not know this to be true. It makes no sense to argue Einstein spoke out against racism because he wanted the majority of people, who at the time were racist themselves, to think that he wasn't racist when in fact he actually was. The face we show the world most often tends to be the face we most wish we had. When people misrepresent themselves publicly it is most often to hide things they embarrassed. If Einstein was embarrassed by being racist and instead lied about it that would imply he thought it was wrong to be racist. We are talking about a time in history when it was perfectly acceptable i polite society to be openly racist and sexist.

Have you done much public speaking, writing, or etc? I am no celebrity on the scale of Einstein but I have done a fair amount of public speaking and my experience is that what I am willing to say out loud in front of others is often far more honest  than the monologue rolling in my head. People lie, delude, exaggerate to and fool themselves all the time. 

[StringJunky]

42 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I am not referring to criticizing that he held those views. He 1920''9

 

I think his comments reflected his personal experience at the time. I don't see, for example, this description as overly racist, although he's painting with a rather broad brush. You have to bear in mind he was describing 1920's China. The disparity in the relative, typical living conditions and education between Europe and  China was likely considerable.

Quote

...industrious, filthy, obtuse people

"industrious" is hardly an insult. One shouldn't judge 1920's - 90-odd year old - attitudes  through a millennial lens. 

Edit: my computer has messed up your quote... playing silly buggers.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by StringJunky

[beecee]

10 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

When I said racism, what I was really trying to say was racial differences.

The title of the thread tells me different.

Quote

And in those instances I was being philosophical rather than scientific.

Science is what we know: Philosophy is what we don't know.

Bertrand Russell:

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by beecee

[CharonY]

53 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

One shouldn't judge 1920's - 90-odd year old - attitudes  through a millennial lens. 

As I tried to make clear, it is explicitly not about judgement. Just that stereotyping (regardless whether obviously negative or not) were commonplace and in fact still are, though often more veiled.

Rather it is weird to assume that Einstein would be free of them. I do not want to go down the road and start a discussion why almost all stereotypes can be problematic (even seemingly positive ones, given context) but even in that example it is difficult to state that Einstein made a thoroughly positive description of  the population. I am not saying that everyone travelling should be as open minded and respectful as the late Bourdain (though that was one of his big draws), especially not in the last century. But at least some of the posts seem to imply that due to his stature he would be above that (and one poster taking the polar opposite to reinforce their ideology).

Edited June 15, 2018 by CharonY

[koti]

Einstein managed to screw up his personal life really badly more than once and he managed to antagonise a lot of people during his life...his women and his children the most. He was ackward socially and I wouldn’t be surprised that although being a jew who chose to stay away from politics in those difficult times, he might have commited various faux pas more than once - he constantly did in relation to his wife and oldest son so it is very possible that he did so towards ethnicity or race. After all, people do it all the time nowdays so why wouldn’t they do it then especially that a 100 years is a „huge” cultural gap in modern times. I’m looking at the title of this thread and I conclude that its trolling with an agenda at its finest - take a brilliant physics mind (Einstein wasn’t a great mathematician nor a great husband nor a great Father) with its genius and flaws and use it to fulfill your dirty agenda. Its been a long time since I went countryside but the original post smells like a pile of manure on a hot day. 

Edited June 15, 2018 by koti

[beecee]

2 minutes ago, koti said:

 I’m looking at the title of this thread and I conclude that its trolling with an agenda at its finest - take a brilliant physics mind (Einstein wasn’t a great mathematician nor a great husband nor a great Father) with its genius and flaws and use it to fulfill your dirty agenda. Its been a long time since I went countryside but the original post smells like a pile of manure on a hot day. 

Yes, that is precisely how I see this thread and apparent similarities with others from the same poster. The crusade continues.

31 minutes ago, CharonY said:

As I tried to make clear, it is explicitly not about judgement. Just that stereotyping (regardless whether obviously negative or not) were commonplace and in fact still are, though often more veiled.

Rather it is weird to assume that Einstein would be free of them. 

Yes, the great man had many unconventional and weird aspects of his life, not the least being that he almost never wore socks.

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Yes, that is precisely how I see this thread and apparent similarities with others from the same poster. The crusade continues.

Yes, the great man had many unconventional and weird aspects of his life, not the least being that he almost never wore socks.

Under the facade that is our social face we are all weird in our own way.

[Endercreeper01]

3 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Considering what an out spoken critic he was with regards to racism I think more context for the comments is required. We are talking about someone who actively gave speeches, interviews, participated ideas for books, and authored papers. He views, at least publicly, on the issue are known. In lieu of that I would give Einstein the benefit of doubt because life's work is more relevant than off color remarks never meant for consumption. As an example I love my wife and hold a very high opinion of her intellectually. That isn't to say that as an emotional creature I have never slandered her out of temporary bought of jealously, impatience, or general moodiness. Anyone attempt to use those moments to extrapolate that I didn't love my wife or don't hold a high opinion of her would simply be wrong. We all do and say stupid things we know, often immediately, are wrong. I have no way of knowing if those were Einsteins true feelings in those remarks or just but his life's work implies he was a tolerate person relative to his peers. 

You do not know this to be true. It makes no sense to argue Einstein spoke out against racism because he wanted the majority of people, who at the time were racist themselves, to think that he wasn't racist when in fact he actually was. The face we show the world most often tends to be the face we most wish we had. When people misrepresent themselves publicly it is most often to hide things they embarrassed. If Einstein was embarrassed by being racist and instead lied about it that would imply he thought it was wrong to be racist. We are talking about a time in history when it was perfectly acceptable i polite society to be openly racist and sexist.

Have you done much public speaking, writing, or etc? I am no celebrity on the scale of Einstein but I have done a fair amount of public speaking and my experience is that what I am willing to say out loud in front of others is often far more honest  than the monologue rolling in my head. People lie, delude, exaggerate to and fool themselves all the time. 

It's not that it has to be considered racism to acknowledge racial differences. He could have simply not seen anything wrong with acknowledging such differences.

Again, one doesn't have to be a racist to be one that acknowledges racial differences.

[NNY]

On 14/06/2018 at 9:33 AM, Sensei said:

"Asian squat" is pretty unpleasant for people who are not doing it entire life e.g. Europeans. It looks like this:

Einstein's words are just description "how it looks like" for people who have no idea.. (now we can simply show photo instead)

 

He was talking about Chinese people, he met during travel, one hundred years ago.. about poor and hungry people living there in unacceptable now conditions..

Hungry people are rarely spiritful/vigorous..

 

In Japan this way of sitting is called 猿座り(to sit like a monkey) ,うんこ座り(to sit like you're taking a shit) ヤンキー座り (to sit like a delinquent) , カエル座り(to sit like a frog )and this way of sitting is never considered a nice way of sitting in public, it always has a negative nuance when done in public. So I wonder if this way of sitting is also considered bad manners in China when done in public. 

This is an interesting link (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/15/chinese-defend-einsteins-diaries-filthy-obtuse) one comment, by a Chinese person, from the article being:

Quote

Others compared the scientist’s observations to that of Lu Xun, considered the father of modern Chinese literature, who was best known for his scathing satire of Chinese society in the early 20th century. “We praise Lu Xun because he pointed out our disadvantages. Why should we blame Einstein for this?”

 

I wonder if this is just a sales ploy for when the translations of his diaries are bound and sold at the local book store. Controversy is a great way to guarantee interest in a product for sale.

Edited June 16, 2018 by NNY

[DrP]

10 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

Again, one doesn't have to be a racist to be one that acknowledges racial differences.

It depends upon what conclusions you draw or jump to from those observations. 

[Endercreeper01]

1 hour ago, DrP said:

It depends upon what conclusions you draw or jump to from those observations. 

Somewhat, although with Einstein, it involved stereotyping.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Endercreeper01

[mistermack]

11 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

Again, one doesn't have to be a racist to be one that acknowledges racial differences.

No you don't. But you need to be a bit along the racist path, to think that the tiny differences are worth making something of. Or maybe to have a touch of something like Tourettes, giving a compulsion to tip the apple cart. 

[Endercreeper01]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

No you don't. But you need to be a bit along the racist path, to think that the tiny differences are worth making something of. Or maybe to have a touch of something like Tourettes, giving a compulsion to tip the apple cart. 

Einstein seems to have thought something of them, to the extent that he would have decided that it was worthwhile to write in his journal.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Endercreeper01

[koti]

33 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

Einstein seems to have thought something of them, to the extent that he would have decided that it was worthwhile to write in his journal.

Einstein was not a racist. Even if he was, what is the point in all this? It's obvious that you're looking for specific conclusions but it's not clear what exactly it is that you are looking for. Could you specify what it is that you are looking for and then maybe members can help you out more efficiently? 

[Endercreeper01]

Just now, koti said:

Einstein was not a racist. Even if he was, what is the point in all this? It's obvious that you're looking for specific conclusions but it's not clear what exactly it is that you are looking for. Could you specify what it is that you are looking for and then maybe members can help you out more efficiently? 

I am only looking for the acknowledgment of Einstein's opinions as being this way and for it not to be excused.

[mistermack]

47 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

Einstein seems to have thought something of them, to the extent that he would have decided that it was worthwhile to write in his journal.

I read some of what you linked, even though I wouldn't normally give Fox News a second glance. Your inferences are rubbish. Nowhere that I read does Einstein link his observations to race. He's observing nations and their cultures, and their current situations. It would be frowned on today, but it's not racist, certainly not for 1922.

My father was one generation later than Einstein, born about 1907. He was a nice enough guy, he worked with some black people, but I never ever heard him refer to black people as anything other than n....rs.

In 1922, the year of the diary, blacks were still being regularly lynched in the US. You are simple trying to make something about Einstein out of the fact that he lived in a different time, of very different attitudes.

[Endercreeper01]

Just now, mistermack said:

I read some of what you linked, even though I wouldn't normally give Fox News a second glance. Your inferences are rubbish. Nowhere that I read does Einstein link his observations to race. He's observing nations and their cultures, and their current situations. It would be frowned on today, but it's not racist, certainly not for 1922.

My father was one generation later than Einstein, born about 1907. He was a nice enough guy, he worked with some black people, but I never ever heard him refer to black people as anything other than n....rs.

In 1922, the year of the diary, blacks were still being regularly lynched in the US. You are simple trying to make something about Einstein out of the fact that he lived in a different time, of very different attitudes.

What would be so noteworthy about such attitudes to Einstein that he decides to write it in his journal?

He must have had some tenancies towards stereotyping if he thought it was worthwhile to write such in his notebook.

[mistermack]

Just now, Endercreeper01 said:

What would be so noteworthy about such attitudes to Einstein that he decides to write it in his journal?

He must have had some tenancies towards stereotyping if he thought it was worthwhile to write such in his notebook.

Yes, but their's no hint that he was referring to race. He was referring to local conditions, local ways of life. Did he make any reference to inherited characteristics? Not in the stuff I read. And I'm not going to comb through that junk. His observations are cultural, not about inherited racial characteristics. That is not in any way racist, for 1922.

When I was a lad in the fifties and sixties, Gloucester people were just as sweeping about the people living in the Forest of Dean. Not to mention the Welsh !!

[Endercreeper01]

10 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Yes, but their's no hint that he was referring to race. He was referring to local conditions, local ways of life. Did he make any reference to inherited characteristics? Not in the stuff I read. And I'm not going to comb through that junk. His observations are cultural, not about inherited racial characteristics. That is not in any way racist, for 1922.

When I was a lad in the fifties and sixties, Gloucester people were just as sweeping about the people living in the Forest of Dean. Not to mention the Welsh !!

He was still showing a tendency towards stereotyping and an affinity for finding differences between groups of people, which are qualities that are associated with racist thinking.

[mistermack]

1 minute ago, Endercreeper01 said:

He was still showing a tendency towards stereotyping and an affinity for finding differences between groups of people, which are qualities that are associated with racist thinking.

Not in 1922. You are pathetically avoiding the real point. 

[Endercreeper01]

Just now, mistermack said:

Not in 1922. You are pathetically avoiding the real point. 

It doesn't matter what time periods it was, he is still exhibiting qualities associated with racist tendencies and attitudes.