How would you Create a Utopia?

[ALine]

Hey so my question is the following.

How would you create a perfect society from a philosophical persepctive. Like would you set any rules, how would your society run and protect yourself. Also that society must be able to exist in the real world.

 

 

 

 

 

[iNow]

Utopia, according to whom?

[Ten oz]

9 minutes ago, ALine said:

Hey so my question is the following.

How would you create a perfect society from a philosophical persepctive. Like would you set any rules, how would your society run and protect yourself. Also that society must be able to exist in the real world.

As iNow pointed out Utopia is relative. What things do you feel a Utopian society would require? 

[iNow]

In fairness to the OP, I suspect they're hoping we'll offer our views... so, utopia to "me" is really my best guess about what they'd like described

[dimreepr]

Any time we move towards a more equal and peaceful society is the latest version of our best attempt; utopia is a society that feels so safe, it doesn't care who makes it work...

[iNow]

ALine just PM’d me saying they could not post here. Unsure why?

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

ALine just PM’d me saying they could not post here. Unsure why?

He could PM his answers to you and ask you to copy-n-paste them to the thread... 

[Moontanman]

The only possible Utopia is private to each individual, computer simulation gives an interesting possibility but if we are currently in a simulation it's not mine i assure you... 

[Bender]

Unconditional basic income.

Everything else will follow.

[Phi for All]

7 minutes ago, Bender said:

Unconditional basic income.

Everything else will follow.

I'm torn between this and some kind of minimum subsistence option where nobody sleeps on the streets and all get access to food, clothing, and healthcare, as well as education and vocational training. 

If we're going to keep money, then I want abusive money addicts treated and regulated the same as those with other addictions. 

II think the best start for any Utopia is strong, broad foundations that cover common needs, and thereby equip us all to fine tune our personal version.

[Pembroke]

If the income is unconditional, can I choose not to work?

[iNow]

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

He could PM his answers to you and ask you to copy-n-paste them to the thread... 

Yeah, not gonna do that 

[Bender]

15 minutes ago, Pembroke said:

If the income is unconditional, can I choose not to work?

Off course.

Fair warning: you could have a significantly increased risk of depression if you don't do anything useful (which is my definition of "work", as getting paid is no longer a necessity).

[Pembroke]

Interesting. I'm sure you're right about the depression part.

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, Bender said:

Unconditional basic income.

Everything else will follow.

Humans are selfish and competitive by nature just as most predators are. Many of us have need others to lose so that we can revel is wining. Worse still is that for some the feeling can never be fully satiated. The challenge of creating equitable societies is seldom about the availability of resources or there distribution but rather is how we humans behave. How does an equitable society exist while under never ending assault from selfish, greedy, angry, often violent segments of the population who work tirelessly to undermine it? Even if it is only 1% that is enough to sow fear, distrust, discontent, and all the other things which plague societies. Obviously equitable societies can't cast out or kill agitators because that would mean they were no longer equitable. It is a bit of a catch 22 the way I see it. Refusal to stand strongly against a strongman empowers strongmen yet to stand strongly against them results in war where everyone basically becomes strongmen. 

As a kid I saw what I believe was a twilight zone episode, but could have been something else, where a scientist was wakened from some sort of cryo sleep into a Utopian future. The scientist had gone to sleep 50yrs earlier in hopes his cancer could be cured in the future. The Utopian future provided for everyone. No one was hunger, homeless, depressed, or etc. All was perfect. The Utopian govt had awoke the scientist because they needed his help to access an old weapons system he had help designed. A meteor was headed towards earth and the Utopian govt wanted to bow it up. The Scientist agreed to help and got the weapons system online for them and then he was immediately detained. Turns out there was not a meteorite. It was a U.S. military space shuttle carrying the U.S. President and numerous govt officials.  The shuttle had fled earth during a third world war many years prior and was finally returning. The Utopian govt blow it up for fear the officials would come back is destroy their perfect society. They acknowledge it was genocide but insisted it was necessary genocide. The scientist rebuked them savages. Both the scientist and the Utopians were right. 

 

[Bender]

4 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Humans are selfish and competitive by nature just as most predators are. Many of us have need others to lose so that we can revel is wining. Worse still is that for some the feeling can never be fully satiated. The challenge of creating equitable societies is seldom about the availability of resources or there distribution but rather is how we humans behave. How does an equitable society exist while under never ending assault from selfish, greedy, angry, often violent segments of the population who work tirelessly to undermine it? Even if it is only 1% that is enough to sow fear, distrust, discontent, and all the other things which plague societies. Obviously equitable societies can't cast out or kill agitators because that would mean they were no longer equitable. It is a bit of a catch 22 the way I see it. Refusal to stand strongly against a strongman empowers strongmen yet to stand strongly against them results in war where everyone basically becomes strongmen. 

As a kid I saw what I believe was a twilight zone episode, but could have been something else, where a scientist was wakened from some sort of cryo sleep into a Utopian future. The scientist had gone to sleep 50yrs earlier in hopes his cancer could be cured in the future. The Utopian future provided for everyone. No one was hunger, homeless, depressed, or etc. All was perfect. The Utopian govt had awoke the scientist because they needed his help to access an old weapons system he had help designed. A meteor was headed towards earth and the Utopian govt wanted to bow it up. The Scientist agreed to help and got the weapons system online for them and then he was immediately detained. Turns out there was not a meteorite. It was a U.S. military space shuttle carrying the U.S. President and numerous govt officials.  The shuttle had fled earth during a third world war many years prior and was finally returning. The Utopian govt blow it up for fear the officials would come back is destroy their perfect society. They acknowledge it was genocide but insisted it was necessary genocide. The scientist rebuked them savages. Both the scientist and the Utopians were right. 

 

None of this invalidates UBI. It does not prevent people from working harder to get more wealth. It will certainly reduce crime, given that our prisons are filled with poor people.

I hope you aren't giving too much credibility to some anti-communist episode you saw as a kid. UBI is nothing like communism.

[Ten oz]

10 minutes ago, Bender said:

None of this invalidates UBI. It does not prevent people from working harder to get more wealth. It will certainly reduce crime, given that our prisons are filled with poor people.

I hope you aren't giving too much credibility to some anti-communist episode you saw as a kid. UBI is nothing like communism.

I would vote for any politician that supports universal basic income. I wish such policies were advocated publicly. I would support those politicians in hopes in prosuit of UBI we at least get healthcare and fixes to Social Security.

That said I do not believe UBI would work. It doesn't address the nature of certain terrible people. The Nazis chanting "Jews will not replace us" won't be satiated by being able to work harder to get more wealth. To that end what percentage of wealthy people do you think got there by "working harder"? UBI doesn't address any of that. There are  people in this world wouldn't mind seeing all members of the LGBTQ community rounded up and killed. Such people would never just work harder to have more and ignore gay couples happily living their lives thanks in part to UBI. It isn't merely about competition. Feelings of hatred, envy, righteousness, superiority, and etc often lead to wanting to see others crushed. They don't merely want more money than there nemisis. They want their nemisis to be made to suffer. UBI totally ignores what is actually behind societal ills.

[Bender]

4 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I would vote for any politician that supports universal basic income. I wish such policies were advocated publicly. I would support those politicians in hopes in prosuit of UBI we at least get healthcare and fixes to Social Security.

That said I do not believe UBI would work. It doesn't address the nature of certain terrible people. The Nazis chanting "Jews will not replace us" won't be satiated by being able to work harder to get more wealth. To that end what percentage of wealthy people do you think got there by "working harder"? UBI doesn't address any of that. There are  people in this world wouldn't mind seeing all members of the LGBTQ community rounded up and killed. Such people would never just work harder to have more and ignore gay couples happily living their lives thanks in part to UBI. It isn't merely about competition. Feelings of hatred, envy, righteousness, superiority, and etc often lead to wanting to see others crushed. They don't merely want more money than there nemisis. They want their nemisis to be made to suffer. UBI totally ignores what is actually behind societal ills.

None of this has anything to do with UBI, which is an economic system. It's success does not depend on whether terrible people exist or not.

It does indirectly alleviate the problem by reducing envy and attitudes like "they steal our jobs". It will also reduce general insecurity which in turn reduces us vs them sentiments. Moreover, crime rates of non-caucasians will drop dramatically when they no longer face financial stress.

Lastly, criminal organisations will have a harder time exploiting the weak and desperate when there are much less weak and desperate.

Given that LGBTQ hatred is on a steep decline worldwide, Nazi's aren't as popular as 70 years ago and aggression and crime rates are significantly decreasing worldwide, I do not share your pessimism that terrible people will always spoil the party.

[Ten oz]

12 minutes ago, Bender said:

None of this has anything to do with UBI, which is an economic system. It's success does not depend on whether terrible people exist or not.

I fundamentally disagree. Nearly every economic system would work seemlessly if people acted in good faith. In the U.S. if everyone worked hard, played by the rules, and was honest the system would be equitable and everyone would be cared for. Problem isn't the system. A hundred different potential systems could work. The problem is people. The problem is that no system has a society full of good faith actors. People lie, cheat, steal, and then fight each other so they can lie, cheat, and steal some more. 

UBI attempts to resolve a sinking ship by re-inventing the bucket. The problem isn't with the buckets though. 

29 minutes ago, Bender said:

It does indirectly alleviate the problem by reducing envy and attitudes like "they steal our jobs". It will also reduce general insecurity which in turn reduces us vs them sentiments. Moreover, crime rates of non-caucasians will drop dramatically when they no longer face financial stress.

Too bad envy isn't linear. "They steal our jobs" are just slogans that taps into the sphere. Seeing those one deems unworthy of happiness happy when they themselves are not happy leads to multiple levels of envy and anger. A million slogans can be created to replace "they steal our jobs". Seriously, most of the states which vote most heavily against immigrants aren't even ones which have immigrants. The angst is deeper. 

32 minutes ago, Bender said:

Lastly, criminal organisations will have a harder time exploiting the weak and desperate when there are much less weak and desperate.

They'll create desperation to exploit. They won't just pack it in if none is natural flurishing (it is always flurishing). You think the opioid epidemic is something natural which is exploited or something created so it could be exploited? 

[Bender]

7 hours ago, Ten oz said:

if everyone worked hard

Here is your problem: not everyone can work hard for a variety of reasons:

- lack of marketable skills

- disability 

- discrimination 

- lack of work: This will get worse in the near future. I predict the problems in this respect will lift of with self-driving cars. It is absurd that this would be a problem: our hopelessly outdated economic model makes us slow down automation and technological advancement.

- voluntary work or all the useful things people do that doesn't currently clasify as "work"

As a liberal, I also have to point out that there is no freedom of work now (unless you have very good credentials). Of course people get unhappy when they are not free in such an important aspect of their life.

Will UBI solve everything by itself? Of course not, but it will solve the problems directly caused by our current system.

7 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Seeing those one deems unworthy of happiness happy when they themselves are not happy leads to multiple levels of envy and anger.

When more people are happy, this problem will decrease.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Bender

[Ten oz]

5 hours ago, Bender said:

Here is your problem: not everyone can work hard for a variety of reasons:

2 contextual things I think you missed: 

- "Work hard" is relative to ones own abilities and efforts which is why included "and was honest". 

- "Work hard and play by the rules" is a well worn and tired Republican saying used to celebrate capitalism. My use of it was meant to be ironic which is why followed it by saying people lie, cheat, steal, and fight to lie cheat and steal some more. 

It is not the board majority of people I am referencing as liars and cheats. Rather it is just a small minority just as today only a small minority are billionaires. Look at the level of manipulation and control that small minority has though. Again, I believe any number of economic and governance systems could work. Communism could work, Socialism could work, a Monarchy could work, a Theocracy could work, and etc. What undermines all systems is the corruption and loathing towards each other. Reinventing the bucket won't fix a sinking ship. 

5 hours ago, Bender said:

When more people are happy, this problem will decrease.

UBI won't make people happy. Countless studies have been done and there are many philosophical theories out there about. If you want to go in-depth about happiness we'll need to start a new thread most likely. What I think can be definitively stated is that there is no empirical link between income and happiness. No only that but corrosive behaviors which are associated with poor menatl health like addiction, sexual abuse, physical abuse, abandonment, and etc exist across all income levels imaginable. 

The OP is asking how we'd create Utopia. For me the answer is a behavioral one more so than a structural one. 

[dimreepr]

37 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

UBI won't make people happy.

No, but it will make people safe.

37 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Countless studies have been done and there are many philosophical theories out there about. If you want to go in-depth about happiness we'll need to start a new thread most likely. What I think can be definitively stated is that there is no empirical link between income and happiness. No only that but corrosive behaviors which are associated with poor menatl health like addiction, sexual abuse, physical abuse, abandonment, and etc exist across all income levels imaginable. 

2

Money won't make you happy, but poverty will make you unhappy.

Edited June 30, 2018 by dimreepr

[Ten oz]

20 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

No, but it will make people safe.

If it could be implemented as designate and no bad faith actors found loop holes or work arounds to exploit, sure.  A lot of system work on paper. 

"Everyone has a plan until they get hit" - Mike Tyson

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

If it could be implemented as designate and no bad faith actors found loop holes or work arounds to exploit, sure.  A lot of system work on paper. 

"Everyone has a plan until they get hit" - Mike Tyson

No-one rebels because they're warm, safe and well fed.

[Ten oz]

7 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

No-one rebels because they're warm, safe and well fed.

Were Southern Whites cold, in danger, and hunger in 1861?