Adding tackifer to water-based glue

[TomJones]

Hi everybody,

Not sure if it's the right place to ask, but I'll have a go. 

I have this water-based glue, latex based - not sure of the chemical composition but I would say it's similar to Tearmender. Say you want to glue together a piece of sponge on a piece of wood: with Tearmender, you would have to apply a layer on the sponge and a layer on the piece of wood, wait to dry and attach them together. If you only glue the sponge side, it will not stick to the wood.

Question is, can you advise of a tackifier (or resin, or anything else) that can be added to the glue so it becomes tacky, like a 'post it' note? I need enough adhesion to keep the sponge on the wood, with just one layer applied on the sponge.

More specifically, I'm talking about water-based glues used to stick table tennis rubbers on table tennis blades. The end result has to be an alteration of an existing glue, I tried 3M Remount glue-spray (acetone based) and while providing the tack effect needed, it very much changes the way racket plays, for the worse.

Any ideas?

[StringJunky]

9 hours ago, TomJones said:

Hi everybody,

Not sure if it's the right place to ask, but I'll have a go. 

I have this water-based glue, latex based - not sure of the chemical composition but I would say it's similar to Tearmender. Say you want to glue together a piece of sponge on a piece of wood: with Tearmender, you would have to apply a layer on the sponge and a layer on the piece of wood, wait to dry and attach them together. If you only glue the sponge side, it will not stick to the wood.

Question is, can you advise of a tackifier (or resin, or anything else) that can be added to the glue so it becomes tacky, like a 'post it' note? I need enough adhesion to keep the sponge on the wood, with just one layer applied on the sponge.

More specifically, I'm talking about water-based glues used to stick table tennis rubbers on table tennis blades. The end result has to be an alteration of an existing glue, I tried 3M Remount glue-spray (acetone based) and while providing the tack effect needed, it very much changes the way racket plays, for the worse.

Any ideas?

Would a thin, double-sided adhesive film be any good, that's peel-off on both sides? You want one that has the right 'bounce' characteristics, don't you? Are you trying to make your own?

Edited June 30, 2018 by StringJunky

[TomJones]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

Would a thin, double-sided adhesive film be any good, that's peel-off on both sides? You want one that has the right 'bounce' characteristics, don't you? Are you trying to make your own?

Yes, that's it, it has to bounce right. But it has to be something based on an existing glue - no point in starting from scratch, as this is quite finicky stuff. I really had high hopes on the 3M Remount, I sprayed it over a surface previously treated with one of my water-based glues, and it did add tack to it, but deaden the bounce. Presumably because it's hard to spray thin (well, you can, but it's not putting enough tack). Double adhesive films exists for this purpose, but again, it makes the bounce higher and it sticks so well you might end up splintering the racket. Not very popular amongst players.

This is what gives me hopes: I bought one of these standard table tennis glues some time ago and I discovered that if I lay down a layer and then shelf it for 24 hours, it becomes very tacky - literally overnight. Normally it has a little tack, enough to stick to itself but useless for anything else. I bought the exact same glue (any many other brands as well) and I can't replicate it no matter what I do. Could have been something special with that particular batch, or maybe that particular bottle was old stock... I'm grasping at straws. 

[StringJunky]

Do you have to be able to lift the glued surface off when required... you want to be able to replace the rubber layer when needed fairly easily?

[TomJones]

Yes, with standard glues the bond is solid, but not extremely strong so you wrestle with the rubber to get it off. I discovered by accident that if the bond is not solid, but rather 'post-it' like, it gives some wonderful playing qualities.

Edited June 30, 2018 by TomJones

[StringJunky]

9 minutes ago, TomJones said:

Yes, with standard glues the bond is solid, but not extremely strong so you wrestle with the rubber to get it off. I discovered by accident that if the bond is not solid, but rather 'post-it' like, it gives some wonderful playing qualities.

We might have a member who's familiar with glues IIRC. You clearly know the standard stuff for your sport. Don't you have different rubber grades and thicknesses for different kinds of feedback? Is this discovery giving you a property you can't find with the standard tweaks?

[TomJones]

6 hours ago, StringJunky said:

We might have a member who's familiar with glues IIRC. You clearly know the standard stuff for your sport. Don't you have different rubber grades and thicknesses for different kinds of feedback? Is this discovery giving you a property you can't find with the standard tweaks?

Good question. So we have the rubber and the naked paddle (the blade), with the glue in between. Rubbers come in all different thickness and hardness, so are blades. This thing I'm trying to do will improve a characteristic that is relevant to the blade (independent of what rubbers I use). Is there a blade that has everything? Not really. There is a relatively fixed speed/control ratio - you can't have a very fast blade that also have a lot of control. So you pick the control/speed ratio that works for you, you glue the rubbers that you like best, and that's your lot. It's pretty hard to improve on it without compromising something. But, in my experience, a glue with the right tack does improve the control without compromising the speed. It's that fine line between rubbers solidly glued up in the normal fashion (plays ok), and just hanging in there with little tack (plays dead, as rubbers are pretty much disconnected). You want enough tack for the rubbers and blade to form one mass, but just about. I'm gonna stop before I bore everyone stiff

Edited June 30, 2018 by TomJones

[StringJunky]

11 minutes ago, TomJones said:

Good question. So we have the rubber and the naked paddle (the blade), with the glue in between. Rubbers come in all different thickness and hardness, so are blades. This thing I'm trying to do will improve a characteristic that is relevant to the blade (independent of what rubbers I use). Is there a blade that has everything? Not really. There is a relatively fixed speed/control ratio - you can't have a very fast blade that also have a lot of control. So you pick the control/speed ratio that works for you, you glue the rubbers that you like best, and that's your lot. It's pretty hard to improve on it without compromising something.

Yes, I see, like many things. you can't have loads of agility/liveliness without losing some stability or control.  What would be the ideal properties of the glue. Do you want it as thin as possible, so that it doesn't interfere with the transmission of the strike from the rubber to the blade and back again, like remove any energy?

Edited June 30, 2018 by StringJunky

[TomJones]

5 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Yes, I see, like many things. you can't have loads of agility/liveliness without losing some stability or control.  What would be the ideal properties of the glue. Do you want it as thin as possible, so that it doesn't interfere with the transmission of the strike from the rubber to the blade and back again, like remove any energy?

Actually, the glue plays quite an important role. If you lay the thinnest amount of glue (one layer on the blade, one on the rubber), and assuming it adheres properly, it might be ok but usually you can do better. In principle, you want 3-4 layers of glue, as an interface between the rubber and blade. What that does in increases 'dwell time', the rubber will 'hug' the ball for a fraction longer at impact, and from that comes real control.

But, if glue is too mushy,  it will dampen too much and take away speed. If glue too rubbery, it will spin the ball very well, but dwell time will decrease. There will be little 'hugging' of the ball and your control margin becomes quite narrow.

What I do to mitigate that is put 3 thin layers of rubbery glue, followed by one layer of softer glue. That's only on the rubber. If that softer glue happens to be tacky, fantastic. Just lay the rubbers on the blade and it's ready. But since I finished that 'magic' bottle, I have to resort to putting an extra layer of glue on the blade, otherwise it won't stick. That's what everyone does basically, and it's ok. Some might have found a different formula that works better for them, or a particular glue that they like, but generally speaking they won't improve anything - just get a feel that they're comfortable with. This is just the gluing part. You can trick the rubbers too, but these things work independently of each other.

All these glues are exclusively water-based. VOC glues are not allowed anymore.