Basic Universal Income (BUI)

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Education and Healthcare costs have some people underwater hundreds of thousand of dollars. Getting education and healthcare for all squared away would be worth more to people in the long run than a cash in hand income in my opinion. 

Hopefully (in the US, at least), folks will start to realize that conservative measures have been taken to the extremes, and it's suffocating our citizenry unnecessarily. If BUI were adopted first (or forced through under strong GOP/Libertarian opposition), I don't think universal healthcare or free higher education would have a chance. If, on the other hand, we impose an Eisenhower-like graduated tax on the wealthy, remove the age limit on Medicare, and fund a huge higher education/vocational training program for all, the benefits that accrue stand a better chance of convincing folks that a BUI (now less because healthcare and education won't cost) is the next reasonable step.

[iNow]

I’m reluctant to further muddy this or potentially introduce an off-topic tangent, but find myself curious how posters might feel about introducing a jobs guarantee instead of a UBI (like Larry Summers, Paul Kaufman, mad many others have lately been discussing).

[Sensei]

11 hours ago, swansont said:

And yet the economy stubbornly doesn't respond this way in a consistent fashion. The US has had many instances of growth when taxes were high, or were raised, for the wealthy, and of poor performance after cuts.

After end of II world war, cold war and nuclear armaments race started.. Korean war.. and later Vietnam war.. NASA cosmic space program.. All these things caused orders and investment from government, influencing economy, stimulating growth. Basically, tax from wealth (and poor) people has been collected, and then wasted on designing, building and buying weapons by U.S. government (that in majority never has been even used). If these money would remain in wealth people pockets it's unlikely that they would be wasted on designing and building weapons. They would rather invest them in something constructive.

Google for "army airplane graveyard" for more photos..

 

Edited July 7, 2018 by Sensei

[swansont]

3 hours ago, Sensei said:

After end of II world war, cold war and nuclear armaments race started.. Korean war.. and later Vietnam war.. NASA cosmic space program.. All these things caused orders and investment from government, influencing economy, stimulating growth. Basically, tax from wealth (and poor) people has been collected, and then wasted on designing, building and buying weapons by U.S. government (that in majority never has been even used). If these money would remain in wealth people pockets it's unlikely that they would be wasted on designing and building weapons. They would rather invest them in something constructive.

Most money that's invested is in secondary markets, not new businesses, i.e. there are many more stocks traded than new stocks created. So you can't conclude that investing the money would help the economy. Money that's collected in tax is spent, which is why is stimulates the economy.

[Ten oz]

6 hours ago, iNow said:

I’m reluctant to further muddy this or potentially introduce an off-topic tangent, but find myself curious how posters might feel about introducing a jobs guarantee instead of a UBI (like Larry Summers, Paul Kaufman, mad many others have lately been discussing).

I made a point early about wanting to see large portions of the money spent on defense directed towards infrastructure as a guaranteed  jobs program.  I also think type universal income might be a good thing for specific industries, like agriculture, which are already heavily subsidizes but where people are being under paid or paid off the books. Today in the U.S. kids know that they can join the military and get a guaranteed income and college paid for but everyone doesn't want to carry a gun and potentially have to go to war and kill people. A program offering similar benefits to sign up and work building railways, bridges, repairing dams, and etc would be a great option. 

 

[iNow]

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

I made a point early about wanting to see large portions of the money spent on defense directed towards infrastructure as a guaranteed  jobs program.  I also think type universal income might be a good thing for specific industries, like agriculture, which are already heavily subsidizes but where people are being under paid or paid off the books. Today in the U.S. kids know that they can join the military and get a guaranteed income and college paid for but everyone doesn't want to carry a gun and potentially have to go to war and kill people. A program offering similar benefits to sign up and work building railways, bridges, repairing dams, and etc would be a great option. 

Wouldn’t such a program suffer the same challenges you cite with UBI such as widening the gulf between those who are eligible versus those who aren’t, closing businesses that can’t match the upward wage pressure such a government jobs program would introduce, redirecting funds away from other social safety net programs, etc.?

* should’ve said Krugman above 

[Ten oz]

28 minutes ago, iNow said:

Wouldn’t such a program suffer the same challenges you cite with UBI such as widening the gulf between those who are eligible versus those who aren’t, closing businesses that can’t match the upward wage pressure such a government jobs program would introduce, redirecting funds away from other social safety net programs, etc.?

* should’ve said Krugman above 

DOD spending isn't safety net spending. Currently between military members and civilians DOD employees millions of people many of whom already have advanced degrees and valuable skill sets. Redirecting those resources on infastructure wouldn't disinfranchise anyone.

Likewise an universal income applied to a specific industry like agriculture would be a realocation of existing funds rather than a cut to existing safety nets. The agriculture industry is already federally supported. A universal salary across the board would create parity within the industry. If anything it may save small farms from have to work for the monopolies. It is a shame that the govt currently subsidies the ag industry yet does nothing to guarantee legal and fair wages industry wide. I think it can do better. 

Quote

 

The department will spend $146 billion in 2018, or $1,150 for every U.S. household. The department operates 278 subsidy programs and employs 90,100 workers in about 7,000 offices across the country.

https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/agriculture

 

 

[iNow]

7 hours ago, Ten oz said:

DOD spending isn't safety net spending.

How is DoD spending relevant to the concept of a guaranteed jobs program? Perhaps some jobs would be managed by Defense, but surely not all. 

Some people,would be guaranteed jobs. Others wouldn’t. This seemed to be a big detractor for you. Why would it be okay when doing a guaranteed jobs program while not okay when doing UBI?

[Ten oz]

28 minutes ago, iNow said:

How is DoD spending relevant to the concept of a guaranteed jobs program? Perhaps some jobs would be managed by Defense, but surely not all. 

The military is America's biggest jobs program. The number employed and money pushed out into industry is unmatched. Implying money should be taken away from DOD to pay for an infrastructure jobs program isn't that crazy of a concept.

The below articles discussion the numbers employed and impacts on the economy of the Military. I think much of that should reallocated. 

 https://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/americas-biggest-jobs-pro_b_679426.html

https://www.wired.com/2011/10/defense-industry-cuts-economy/

34 minutes ago, iNow said:

Some people,would be guaranteed jobs. Others wouldn’t. This seemed to be a big detractor for you. Why would it be okay when doing a guaranteed jobs program while not okay when doing UBI?

I think you are ignore the agriculture part of what I has said. People working in agriculture are among the most exploited in the country. Guaranteeing them a salary would accomplish aiding a large number of one of the groups I am concerned BUI would leave behind, immigrants. I am saying everyone in agriculture, even a guy who just sells tomatoes at a farmers market, should receive a salary. That salary would be attached to the industry itself and not to citizenship, background, level of distribution, or etc. Doing that would also help the many independent farmers attempting to have self sustaining farm but can't compete. Agricultural products are commodities and the prices for individual products are often set by the industry at large. That screws over independent farmers and forces them to either lose money on their products or become de facto franchises of large scale producers. 

Also I said "might be a good thing". I am not saying this is exactly what must be done. 

11 hours ago, Ten oz said:

  I also think type universal income might be a good thing for specific industries, like agriculture, which are already heavily subsidizes but where people are being under paid or paid off the books.

 

1 hour ago, iNow said:

How is DoD spending relevant to the concept of a guaranteed jobs program? Perhaps some jobs would be managed by Defense, but surely not all. 

The military is America's biggest jobs program. The number employed and money pushed out into industry is unmatched. Implying money should be taken away from DOD to pay for an infrastructure jobs program isn't that crazy of a concept.

The below articles discussion the numbers employed and impacts on the economy of the Military. I think much of that should reallocated. 

 https://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/americas-biggest-jobs-pro_b_679426.html

https://www.wired.com/2011/10/defense-industry-cuts-economy/

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Some people,would be guaranteed jobs. Others wouldn’t. This seemed to be a big detractor for you. Why would it be okay when doing a guaranteed jobs program while not okay when doing UBI?

I think you are ignore the agriculture part of what I has said. People working in agriculture are among the most exploited in the country. Guaranteeing them a salary would accomplish aiding a large number of one of the groups I am concerned BUI would leave behind, immigrants. I am saying everyone in agriculture, even a guy who just sells tomatoes at a farmers market, should receive a salary. That salary would be attached to the industry itself and not to citizenship, background, level of distribution, or etc. Doing that would also help the many independent farmers attempting to have self sustaining farm but can't compete. Agricultural products are commodities and the prices for individual products are often set by the industry at large. That screws over independent farmers and forces them to either lose money on their products or become de facto franchises of large scale producers. 

Also I said "might be a good thing". I am not saying this is exactly what must be done. 

11 hours ago, Ten oz said:

  I also think type universal income might be a good thing for specific industries, like agriculture, which are already heavily subsidizes but where people are being under paid or paid off the books.

Also as an extra thing not previously discussed all prisoner work should be paid at the minimum federal wage standards and law should protect prisons, cities, counties, or states from charging inmates fees as a way to re-coup or take advantage of that money.

Quote

 

At the federal level, the Bureau of Prisons operates a programme known as Federal Prison Industries that pays inmates roughly $0.90 an hour to produce everything from mattresses, spectacles,road signs and body armour for other government agencies, earning $500m in sales in fiscal 2016. Prisoners have produced official seals for the Department of Defence and Department of State, a bureau spokesman confirmed. In many prisons, the hourly wage is less than the cost of a chocolate bar at the commissary, yet the waiting list remains long—the programme still pays much more than the $0.12-0.40 earned for an hour of kitchen work.

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2017/03/16/prison-labour-is-a-billion-dollar-industry-with-uncertain-returns-for-inmates

 

 

[iNow]

I can tell we’re talking past one another, but as I’m just off several hours on the highway with kids I am too tired to figure out where and how. I’ll need to return to this and reread after some rest. We seem to be swimming in different lanes somehow 

[Bender]

Basic income for farmers runs into the same problems you pose for UBI: when is someone a farmer? Who is eligible? How many carrots do I have to grow in my back yard? Do I have to sell them? But what if my crop fails?

It is already conditional, so what is stopping anyone from adding the other conditions, such as origin or criminal record?

Edited July 8, 2018 by Bender

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, Bender said:

Basic income for farmers runs into the same problems you pose for UBI: when is someone a farmer? Who is eligible? How many carrots do I have to grow in my back yard? Do I have to sell them? But what if my crop fails?

Anyone with a registered business which produces for sale any agriculture product is a Farmer and would receive a guaranteed salary. Anyone who is employed by a Farmer would also receive a guaranteed salary. How much is produced and sold doesn't matter. Farmers would keep the different. 

2 hours ago, Bender said:

It is already conditional, so what is stopping anyone from adding the other conditions, such as origin or criminal record?

BUI is an entitlement everyone would receive as a benefit of citizenship. With such entitlements the type of citizen one is always becomes a sticking point. A guaranteed salary for agriculture would be an earned benefit and those traditionally do not come with the same sticking points. For example a felon can receive Soc Sec. Nothing controversial about it. Yet a felon can not receive food stamps in several states and some states have rules requiring minimum levels of employment and/or drug testing for food stamps. The difference is Soc Sec is an earned benefit and food stamps are not. Likewise a military member with a good tour of service receives the GI Bill even if they are eventually kicked out of the service for criminal acts. The GI Bill is an earned benefit. Yet a Felon can not receive Federal Pell Grants or Federal Student Loans. Those are not earned benefits. 

To be clear I am not saying I personally feel a person should have to "earn" a benefit via some sort of conditional quid pro qou. Rather I am identifying that in society at large there is a difference. Providing an earn benefit to groups of people vs a free entitlement generally elevates debate about origin and background, it just does. 

[Endy0816]

Unfortunately that's too vague. We have a major agricultural property tax loophole that is based on similar logic. You'll see a couple of horses on a large plot of prime realestate to qualify it as a 'farm'.

[Ten oz]

10 minutes ago, Endy0816 said:

Unfortunately that's too vague. We have a major agricultural property tax loophole that is based on similar logic. You'll see a couple of horses on a large plot of prime realestate to qualify it as a 'farm'.

I am fine with that being a farm provided those horses meet the legal definition of an Agricultural product. That said unless the the Horses are being used as or to produce something I don't think their presence alone meets the legal define of an "Agricultural Product". Can you provided a link illustrating the loophole you are referencing?

3 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Anyone with a registered business which produces for sale any agriculture product is a Farmer and would receive a guaranteed salary. Anyone who is employed by a Farmer would also receive a guaranteed salary.

Agriculture Product has a legal definition. It is possible the tax loophole you are referencing falls under some tax law. If that is the case it would have no impact on who would or would not qualify. 

Quote

 

7 U.S. Code § 451 - “Agricultural products” defined

When used in this chapter the term “agricultural products” means agricultural, horticultural, viticultural, and dairy products, livestock and the products thereof, the products of poultry and bee raising, the edible products of forestry, and any and all products raised or produced on farms and processed or manufactured products thereof, transported or intended to be transported in interstate and/or foreign commerce.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/7/451

 

 

[Endy0816]

4 hours ago, Ten oz said:

I am fine with that being a farm provided those horses meet the legal definition of an Agricultural product. That said unless the the Horses are being used as or to produce something I don't think their presence alone meets the legal define of an "Agricultural Product". Can you provided a link illustrating the loophole you are referencing?

 

Counts as horse breeding. Cows are typical too.

http://www.landreport.com/2007/04/agricultural-exemptions-cut-your-taxes/

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/04/americas-dumbest-tax-loophole-the-florida-rent-a-cow-scam/255874/

Disney, Lockheed Martin,  Sen. Bill Nelson are all 'small' farm owners.

Need some kind of restrictions rationally.

[Ten oz]

36 minutes ago, Endy0816 said:

Counts as horse breeding. Cows are typical too.

http://www.landreport.com/2007/04/agricultural-exemptions-cut-your-taxes/

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/04/americas-dumbest-tax-loophole-the-florida-rent-a-cow-scam/255874/

Disney, Lockheed Martin,  Sen. Bill Nelson are all 'small' farm owners.

Need some kind of restrictions rationally.

That is a  Florida State tax issue. That would have no impact on a federal program. Who is or not not a farmer or working in the agriculture industry would be determined by production of a Agricultural Product ad not by State tax policy. 

[Bender]

8 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Anyone with a registered business which produces for sale any agriculture product is a Farmer and would receive a guaranteed salary. Anyone who is employed by a Farmer would also receive a guaranteed salary. How much is produced and sold doesn't matter. Farmers would keep the different. 

Ok, so all one needs to do is register a farming business. Sounds like something that requires conditions to be met.

How many carrots do I need to grow in my back yard to register such a business? Now I can pay my friends to pull a couple of carrots some afternoon. How many carrots do they need to pull to get the income?

[Endy0816]

13 hours ago, Ten oz said:

That is a  Florida State tax issue. That would have no impact on a federal program. Who is or not not a farmer or working in the agriculture industry would be determined by production of a Agricultural Product ad not by State tax policy. 

More to show the problem of loose wording. Very very similar lack of restrictions in our law here.

People seeking to take advantage of the incentive even if they are going against the spirit of it.

[YaDinghus]

2 hours ago, Endy0816 said:

More to show the problem of loose wording. Very very similar lack of restrictions in our law here.

People seeking to take advantage of the incentive even if they are going against the spirit of it.

No matter how you word it, there will always be someone who will take advantage of the incentives. This only becomes impossible if EVERYONE GETS THE SAME PERIOD. And even more strictly so of nobody gets anything because then there are no secondary effects like increased inflation

[Silvestru]

13 minutes ago, YaDinghus said:

This only becomes impossible if EVERYONE GETS THE SAME PERIOD.

hmmm.. a comma goes a long way in the above sentence.

[YaDinghus]

40 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

hmmm.. a comma goes a long way in the above sentence.

F*** commas. Periods are the real deal now

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, YaDinghus said:

No matter how you word it, there will always be someone who will take advantage of the incentives.

And that's the fundamental issue to overcome; how come they get something I have to work for (it's not fair)? 

Money for nothing

Quote

Now look at them yo-yo's that's the way you do it
You play the guitar on the MTV
That ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Money for nothin' and chicks for free
Now that ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Lemme tell ya them guys ain't dumb
Maybe get a blister on your little finger
Maybe get a blister on your thumb
We got to install microwave ovens custom kitchen deliveries
We got to move these refrigerators we gotta move these color TV's
See the little faggot with the earring and the make up 
Yeah buddy that's his own hair 
That little faggot got his own jet airplane
That little faggot he's a millionaire
We got to install microwave ovens custom kitchen deliveries
We got to move these refrigerators we gotta move these color TV's
We got…

 

We can only moan about this injustice, while we can vote out justice for those who can't play guitar or get a job.

[YaDinghus]

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

And that's the fundamental issue to overcome; how come they get something I have to work for (it's not fair)? 

Money for nothing

We can only moan about this injustice, while we can vote out justice for those who can't play guitar or get a job.

I do assume I would keep working for money even if I could live on BUI, if I got at least 20% more than BUI for a regular job. I would certainly not be as stressed out at my job because I wouldn't have to fear losing it. Maybe I would just become an artisanal blacksmith and sell cutlery (always wanted to do that) or armor for LARPers. That I would even do just to cover the cost of the materials and a marginal profit. Right now I am stuck earning money doing something utterly useless. And there are plenty of jobs that are just "Arbeitsbeschaffungsmaßnahmen" (A job for the sake of having a job with no productive or service value, just to not be unemployed in the statistics)

[dimreepr]

22 minutes ago, YaDinghus said:

(A job for the sake of having a job with no productive or service value, just to not be unemployed in the statistics)

Well, that post took a dark turn.

[YaDinghus]

1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

Well, that post took a dark turn.

I love dark turns ;-)

"Arbeitsbeschaffungsmaßnahme" is a real thing in Germany. People create a problem for someone to solve just to make them do something. It's like an empty reference joke: the reference itself is the joke and doesn't depend on the content.