Is there a rational reason for religion?

[DirtyChai]

8 hours ago, Itoero said:

I linked the article because I agree with this statement: "Religious thoughts seems to be an emergent property of our standard cognitive capacities."

The article seems to say we are hardwired to believe in God, which I deny since that implies a God that can be related to as a person.(personal God)

I think the author phrased it that way since the predisposition toward faith referenced from the published essay is what ultimately leads one to ponder the existence of God in the first place.

 

8 hours ago, Itoero said:

I rather think we are hardwired to believe in things that go beyond observable science.

This probably more accurately describes the heart of the actual essay referenced in the article.

And while I still like this article a lot, one of my pet peeves is how various news outlets across the board will cherry pick objective studies and offer commentary just to make it more provocative, and then slap on a sensationalized headline for good measure.

[Itoero]

10 hours ago, DirtyChai said:

19 hours ago, Itoero said:

 

This probably more accurately describes the heart of the actual essay referenced in the article.

We are hardwired to believe in things that go beyond observable science.(since we always travel through time) But that doesn't mean we are hardwired to believe in God(s). ..like they say in the article.

This is the complete article I think: https://www.science20.com/writer_on_the_edge/blog/scientists_discover_that_atheists_might_not_exist_and_thats_not_a_joke-139982

 

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Itoero

[dimreepr]

8 minutes ago, Itoero said:

We are hardwired to believe in things that go beyond observable science.(since we always travel through time) But that doesn't mean we are hardwired to believe in God(s). ..like they say in the article.

This is the complete article I think: https://www.science20.com/writer_on_the_edge/blog/scientists_discover_that_atheists_might_not_exist_and_thats_not_a_joke-139982

1

We're hardwired to believe what we're told and if that doesn't seem fair, some of us object.

Edited August 10, 2018 by dimreepr

[DirtyChai]

35 minutes ago, Itoero said:

We are hardwired to believe in things that go beyond observable science.(since we always travel through time) But that doesn't mean we are hardwired to believe in God(s). ..like they say in the article.

This is the complete article I think: https://www.science20.com/writer_on_the_edge/blog/scientists_discover_that_atheists_might_not_exist_and_thats_not_a_joke-139982

 

 

Ok, so just to clarify everything:

•  You posted a link to an article from Evolution News by Casey Luskin - https://evolutionnews.org/2014/08/evolutionary_st/

 

•  From that article you agreed with the following Quote:  "Religious thoughts seems to be an emergent property of our standard cognitive capacities."

            That quote is actually referenced from a published essay in the Nature International Journal of Science found here:

           https://www.nature.com/articles/4551038a

           If you don't have access to the journal, you can read the full essay here:

           https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258847104/download

 

• The other two sources referenced in the Evolution News Article you linked to are:

             https://www.science20.com/writer_on_the_edge/blog/scientists_discover_that_atheists_might_not_exist_and_thats_not_a_joke-139982

             and

            (Paul Copan, Is God a Moral Monster?, pp. 29-30 (Baker Books, 2011)

            https://www.amazon.com/Is-God-Moral-Monster-Testament/dp/0801072751

 

I agree that the Evolution News article, the Science 2.0 article and the book by Paul Copan all seem to suggest a predisposition toward belief in God.

It seems you agree more with the Published Essay in the Nature Journal by Pascal Boyer that tends to be more objective and suggests a general, more encompassing predisposition toward faith?

            

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

We're hardwired to believe what we're told

That's not what the articles and published essay are talking about.

[Itoero]

On ‎10‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 5:37 PM, dimreepr said:

We're hardwired to believe what we're told and if that doesn't seem fair, some of us object.

Yes but that's not really relevant in this thread. That's related to how religion gains in population and spreads.

 

On ‎10‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 6:40 PM, DirtyChai said:

agree that the Evolution News article, the Science 2.0 article and the book by Paul Copan all seem to suggest a predisposition toward belief in God.

It seems you agree more with the Published Essay in the Nature Journal by Pascal Boyer that tends to be more objective and suggests a general, more encompassing predisposition toward faith?

Yes and this predisposition toward 'faith' is imo an evolutionary trait due the the 'fact' that religious thought(or believing in things that go beyond observable science ) is very likely to be necessary to improve social cohesion. Improving social cohesion grants evolutionary succes for many animals(groups) like wolfepacks, African wild dog packs, killer whales, penguins, zebras....but also for humans....obviously.:)

I don't know if the science of this is correct, but they found that secular communes dissolve up to 4 times faster then religious communes.

http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/religious-cohes.html

Edited August 11, 2018 by Itoero

[MathGeek]

One should distinguish "rational" which means based on logic and facts available to the individual making relevant choices from "objective" which means the set of facts can be demonstrated with reasonable certainty to third parties.  

A young lady may not be able to objectively prove that a young man sexually assaulted her, but is it irrational for her to avoid him because she knows what he did to her?

[Itoero]

15 hours ago, MathGeek said:

One should distinguish "rational" which means based on logic and facts available to the individual making relevant choices from "objective" which means the set of facts can be demonstrated with reasonable certainty to third parties.  

Ok, but in order to know the rational reason for religion, shouldn't you then have to know how it evolved in?

Religion had it's origin probably because religious thought improves social cohesion. The fact that children are hard wired to believe what their parents or educators tell them is probably the main reason why there is stil so much religion.

Arguments for having a religion would be imo because it gives spiritual guiding and can improve group cohesion.

[MathGeek]

21 hours ago, Itoero said:

Ok, but in order to know the rational reason for religion, shouldn't you then have to know how it evolved in?

Religion had it's origin probably because religious thought improves social cohesion. The fact that children are hard wired to believe what their parents or educators tell them is probably the main reason why there is stil so much religion.

Arguments for having a religion would be imo because it gives spiritual guiding and can improve group cohesion.

That is surely possibly, but it tends toward narrowing the rational basis to things that can be explored through objective scholarly approaches.

My experience with religious people suggests there are elements that are rational but also subjective in that they are not independently verifiable (or falsifiable) - claims of personal "spiritual" experiences that may be unproven, but certainly not disproven either.

[dimreepr]

21 hours ago, Itoero said:

Ok, but in order to know the rational reason for religion, shouldn't you then have to know how it evolved in?

Why? Our rationale is dictated by our culture (for the vast majority of us) and that's the reason. Can a belief in a god be argued rationally? Now that's a different question...

[Itoero]

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Why? Our rationale is dictated by our culture (for the vast majority of us) and that's the reason. Can a belief in a god be argued rationally? Now that's a different question...

  The OP asks 'I would like to know the reasonable arguments for having a religion'. Most people don't choose for their religious belief so they don't have an argument for having a religion.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Itoero

[dimreepr]

18 minutes ago, Itoero said:

  The OP asks 'I would like to know the reasonable arguments for having a religion'. Most people don't choose for their religious belief so they don't have an argument for having a religion.

really...

[Itoero]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Why? Our rationale is dictated by our culture (for the vast majority of us)

Can you give an example of this?

[dimreepr]

11 hours ago, Itoero said:

Can you give an example of this?

How English are the English? 

[Itoero]

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

How English are the English? 

Why don't you answer my question? How does the culture you live in dictates the rationale? Don't your parents have a say in that?

[dimreepr]

8 minutes ago, Itoero said:

Why don't you answer my question?

I have.

9 minutes ago, Itoero said:

How does the culture you live in dictates the rationale? Don't your parents have a say in that?

And your school, TV, neighbours, village, town, region etc...

[Itoero]

7 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I have.

And your school, TV, neighbours, village, town, region etc...

You answered that question with another question.

With 'rationale' you mean 'the reason for having a religion' correct?

 

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, Itoero said:

With 'rationale' you mean 'the reason for having a religion' correct?

Don't change the question, look at the title of this thread.

[Itoero]

On ‎14‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 3:00 PM, dimreepr said:

Don't change the question, look at the title of this thread.

How does your culture teaches you the reason for having a religion?

[Sionnach]

The evolutionary factors which lead to the complex social behaviors may make it possible to believe in  we cannot explain especially those that provide a positive feedback in our neurological system. This may help in cooperative behavior and it may make it easier to believe in a god or goddess or spirit but science cannot predict the belief in "god". It also cannot give any proof that you cannot be an atheist. It only explains at best that we have the capacity in believing in things beyond our explanation. When people connect it to believing in god or any specific belief it creates a connection that is not supported by what is known. This can be interesting speculation but when it is presented as fact becomes a negative use of the information. There has been speculation on whether chimpanzees have behaviors that suggest ritualistic like pattern thus may suggest possible support for some aspect of religion. We have seen how both birds and mammals are affected by death of one of their own. Whether this is the beginning of religion with similar behavior patterns to humans is very interesting but no one has suggested yet that they have religion.