Explanation of the killings in Exodus

[John Cuthber]

46 minutes ago, MassMan said:

the rain happen for a long period of time.

Nope.

40 days and 40 nights.

Or do we not believe what it says in the Bible?

[koti]

1 hour ago, MassMan said:

...With God nothing is impossible. He can make the global flood!! His ways are higher than our ways. What seems impossible to us is possible to Him.

This is the essence of this whole thread. You are giving an explanation for the killings in Exodus, your fallacious arguments are then being contradicted by a series of rational posts explaining where your line of thinking has gone wrong and you then use the „with God nothing is impossible” argument which is the purest form of ignorance because it relies entirely on faith and nothing else. By definition, no amount of rational, logical, experimentaly confirmed information can cope with this. The question is why are you trying to rationally explain  the killings in the Exodus in the first place when you clearly admit yourself that the reason is: „Because God” 

Edit:

And in case you missed it, there is an intrinsic discrepancy between „Rational” and „Because God” concepts. Can we agree on this at least? No one is trying to take your faith away from you, the reason your posts are being firmly countered in this thread is that you are trying to rationallize your faith. Its Sunday, go celebrate your faith and leave the realm of the rational out of it. Trying to do so is a dead end street and esentially a paradox from your own example - a married bachelor. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by koti

[Moontanman]

4 hours ago, MassMan said:

The point here is our actions happened at once and cannot be unact. I want to show you that even God knows what will you do in the future, you are still free. Does God's foreknowledge of your future actions eliminates your freewill? No. Your are still free. 

 Oh wow, and i thought taking little girls as sex slaves would be a deal breaker but free will is your poison? OK, if God knows what you are going to do no matter what then he knows a child rapist is going to rape a child, knows the rape is taking place, allows the rape to happen, does nothing to stop it, and then and only then decides the rapist will be punished (unless of course he repents) but the victims free will is not important? Only the rapist gets to have freewill? 

[YaDinghus]

On 7/7/2018 at 11:03 AM, MassMan said:

Some people argue that the killings in the exodus part of the Bible is not just. But there is an explanation of it. The killings are act of punishment by God to those evil people. But there is a deeper explanation of it. God is omniscient. He knows the future of those people which He punish in the exodus. He sees the future of them still evil and no hope of repentance or change for the good on those people, so to avoid further damage by those people and to stop their evil deeds God decided to punish them when it still early. Someone can ask " How about those innocent babies who are killed also?" The answer is God sees that those babies when they grow will also be evildoers because of the influence of the society around them. So while they are innocent, their life ends. We see here the love of God to those babies. He doesn't want those babies to commit sin and experience evil when they grow up. The acts of the killings in exodus are justified. Keys of understanding are considered here- God's omniscient, love, and punishment. Everythings has a purpose.

You're asking for justification from an entity that is beyond reason.

I did some bible studies in an earlier life. The whole foreplay of the deluge is that Humanity, which consisted largely of descendants of Cain, were ravaging the earth and it's natural resources. That wasn't the bad part, though. The people (except for the pure descendants of Seth) were defying god, claiming that they no longer needed him, and strived to become Gods themselves. Now God couldn't have that, but he was lazy and didn't want to start creation from scratch so he just told a pious dude (Noah) who was in the prime of his life (ca 400 Years then) to save all the animals on an arc. The plants had reproductive methods that would allow them to go on after the deluge, but the land animals not so much.

Humans kept defying god, so later he sought more subtle measures to subdue them, like confusing their tongues so they couldn't organize against him anymore. Being God seems to have a learning curve...

[koti]

6 minutes ago, YaDinghus said:

I did some bible studies in an earlier life.

Should that read „early” life or did you intend as it is?  

[YaDinghus]

Just now, koti said:

Should that read „early” life or did you intend as it is?  

As in a life I've tried to forget but the attempt of forgetting it has only bestowed upon me a phenomenal tolerance for alcohol and a sarcastic streak

[koti]

3 minutes ago, YaDinghus said:

As in a life I've tried to forget but the attempt of forgetting it has only bestowed upon me a phenomenal tolerance for alcohol and a sarcastic streak

I read it as in reincarnation but this right there ^ clears it up very accurately.

I feel you, bless you brother (to stay on topic) 

[YaDinghus]

2 minutes ago, koti said:

I read it as in reincarnation but this right there ^ clears it up very accurately.

I feel you, bless you brother (to stay on topic) 

Watching Rick and Morty and Bojack Horseman recently has opened me up to my inner honest person ;-)

[koti]

24 minutes ago, YaDinghus said:

Watching Rick and Morty and Bojack Horseman recently has opened me up to my inner honest person ;-)

Not familiar with Bojack Horseman, will have to look him up.

Googled him, will do it tonight. Who knows maybe I will experience enlightenment and I’ll post a thread in the religion section. Afterall we should respect ones faith. 

[John Cuthber]

2 hours ago, MassMan said:

With God nothing is impossible.

Can He set Himself a task He can't accomplish?

If He can then that task id impossible for Him.

If not then the job of setting that task is impossible for Him.

 

One way or another, one of those is impossible for Him.

 

How long will it take you to realise that the preachers have misled you?

 

[YaDinghus]

37 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Can He set Himself a task He can't accomplish?

If He can then that task id impossible for Him.

If not then the job of setting that task is impossible for Him.

 

One way or another, one of those is impossible for Him.

 

How long will it take you to realise that the preachers have misled you?

 

Omnipotence is in general a paradoxical attribute. It just makes no sense. Though it's more like a blind person telling another blind person to follow them. Neither of them actually have a concept of their own blindness, because nobody knows what seeing means in this context. So the leaders themselves are mislead by their own implicit perceptions of patterns that don't mean anything, unless they want them to.

This should propably have gone into "What is Faith"

[Sensei]

10 minutes ago, YaDinghus said:

Omnipotence is in general a paradoxical attribute. It just makes no sense.

Omnipotence is e.g. ability to create the new Universe..

 

[YaDinghus]

1 minute ago, Sensei said:

Omnipotence is e.g. ability to create the new Universe..

 

I'm no theologian, though I really like getting into arguments over this kind of topic (obviously). If an omnipotent being didn't  make a better Universe than the one we live in, then either this omnipotent being isn't omnipotent (couldn't) or it isn't all-benevolent (wouldn't). Since omnipotence encounters the often-quoted paradox that @John Cuthber introduced above, and the only solution to this paradox seems so be that there is no omnipotent being, that only leaves all-benevolent, yet incompetent. Purely hypothetical, since this requires the a priori assumption that such a being exists, which we don't accept here

[Itoero]

2 hours ago, MassMan said:

But I argue that it's not an ordinary rain from the sky, and also the rain happen for a long period of time. With God nothing is impossible. He can make the global flood!! His ways are higher than our ways. What seems impossible to us is possible to Him.

Then why didn't he just kill all people? Why die he kill nearly all plants and animals in the process? He could come up with something better then the Flood.

[YaDinghus]

2 minutes ago, Itoero said:

Then why didn't he just kill all people? Why die he kill nearly all plants and animals in the process? He could come up with something better then the Flood.

 

2 hours ago, YaDinghus said:

Now God couldn't have that, but he was lazy and didn't want to start creation from scratch so he just told a pious dude (Noah) who was in the prime of his life (ca 400 Years then) to save all the animals on an arc.

I hereby posit the "lazy god theorem". So God really is just a slob like all of us ;-)

[Sensei]

5 minutes ago, YaDinghus said:

So God really is just a slob like all of us ;-)

The largest slob of the Universe. Does not even have retirement funds...

 

 

"If God had a name what would it be?

And would you call it to his face?
If you were faced with Him in all His glory
What would you ask if you had just one question?

And yeah, yeah, God is great
Yeah, yeah, God is good
And yeah, yeah, yeah-yeah-yeah

What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Tryin' to make his way home?

If God had a face what would it look like?
And would you want to see if, seeing meant
That you would have to believe in things like heaven
And in Jesus and the saints, and all the prophets?

And yeah, yeah, God is great
Yeah, yeah, God is good
And yeah, yeah, yeah-yeah-yeah

What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Tryin' to make his way home?

Just tryin'… "

 

[Phi for All]

18 hours ago, MassMan said:

The point here is our actions happened at once and cannot be unact. I want to show you that even God knows what will you do in the future, you are still free. Does God's foreknowledge of your future actions eliminates your freewill? No. Your are still free. 

Why, because you say so? Several people have shown you examples of how omniscience violates free will. All you've done is deny their examples, with no supportive evidence of your own. If you want to show us, why don't you try?

Could God know everything? No, of course not. [See how that's not a very good argument?]

Could God know everything? So far, nobody has ever had a limb regrown by God. No amputees have ever miraculously had their leg or arm regenerate, even though we know the cell mechanisms to do so are fast becoming within the  reach of our own medicine. Many people claim their god cured their cancer or other disease, but based on historical evidence, we have to conclude that either gods don't know how to regrow limbs (which means they aren't omniscient), or for some reason they don't much like amputees, even though this is never mentioned in religious writings.

[John Cuthber]

17 hours ago, Sensei said:

Omnipotence is e.g. ability to create the new Universe..

 

No, That's part of omnipotence.

Omnipotence is the ability to do everything.

It kind of goes with the territory of that being what the word means.

[Sensei]

54 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Omnipotence is the ability to do everything.

Everything? Also changing results of mathematical equations?

e.g. 1+1 wouldn't be 2 anymore?

e.g. 2^8 wouldn't be 256 anymore?

e.g. [math]\pi[/math] wouldn't be ~3.14159265 anymore?

etc. etc.

1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

It kind of goes with the territory of that being what the word means.

...for sure mathematics is excluded from omnipotence..

 

[John Cuthber]

31 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Everything? Also changing results of mathematical equations?

e.g. 1+1 wouldn't be 2 anymore?

e.g. 2^8 wouldn't be 256 anymore?

e.g. π wouldn't be ~3.14159265 anymore?

etc. etc.

...for sure mathematics is excluded from omnipotence..

 

Congratulations!

You are half way to understanding why God is not omnipotent.

 

Once you realise that things like logic and maths make omnipotence impossible you will realise that it's not "mathematics is excluded from omnipotence"-(it can't be by definition) but that 

mathematics is excludeds from omnipotence.

The concept is self-contradictory.

Only the God-squad still buy into it.

 

[koti]

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

Everything? Also changing results of mathematical equations?

e.g. 1+1 wouldn't be 2 anymore?

e.g. 2^8 wouldn't be 256 anymore?

e.g. π wouldn't be ~3.14159265 anymore?

etc. etc.

...for sure mathematics is excluded from omnipotence..

 

Sensei I think you might be confusing the word "Omnipotence" with having to do only with "potence" 
The word "Omnipotence" is the ability of having unlimited power and is not directly related to having "potence", thats probaly something that some Hindu God would have  
Ofcourse the Omipotent God would have that ability too, amongst all other abilities. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by koti

[Strange]

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

Everything? Also changing results of mathematical equations?

 

Yep. That's what "omni" means.

2 hours ago, Sensei said:

...for sure mathematics is excluded from omnipotence..

Why so sure? It would only be slightly-potence in that case.

13 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Why, because you say so? Several people have shown you examples of how omniscience violates free will. All you've done is deny their examples, with no supportive evidence of your own. If you want to show us, why don't you try?

Faith trumps reason.

[Silvestru]

1 minute ago, Strange said:

Faith trumps reason.

Same way Trump trumped Hillary. Through fallacious reasoning.

Why do we never see people from other religions post these kinds of things?

I read most bible related things just to debate with "true believers". I want to educate myself of other religion as well but I am powered by rage so there is no motivation.

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Strange said:

Faith trumps reason.

... when faith gets there first. 

When you think with your emotions before using your reason ("I can't explain something, so there must be a loving, omniscient god!"), you run into all sorts of conflicts with the natural world, and end up using ever more emotional thinking ("The god I love killed a whole bunch of people, so they must have been planning evil in the future!") to explain it all.

When you use reason first, you can trust that your emotions are being used wisely. It should be second nature in humans to guard against being led astray by our feelings (since it's SO easy to do), but unfortunately it's not. Instead, we have to train ourselves to be skeptical, rational, intelligent beings.

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

When you use reason first, you can trust that your emotions are being used wisely.

Reason still has a perspective and so does trust.

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

It should be second nature in humans to guard against being led astray by our feelings (since it's SO easy to do), but unfortunately it's not. Instead, we have to train ourselves to be skeptical, rational, intelligent beings.

Some of us just want to fling our poop at the hated, not because but despite our intelligence; we know it's wrong but they deserve shit, not egg, on their face.